Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:49 am
That's even worse. I'd get sick of seeing AVG pop up on my screen with a loading bar that does everything automatically, but taking up 10 seconds of my life times 365, which is about an hour every year staring at an AVG loading bar.
That's my point. There's zillions of free programs that are used to improve Window's flawed UI design.
I don't want to install a zillion programs to bloat my programs list, take up RAM, take up hard drive space, and waste my time.
Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:58 am
Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:11 am
Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:28 am
el badman wrote:It's only flawed if you do feel the need to have your frequently used icons on the desktop, which not everyone necessarily needs. And since there is a way to do it, and it's not like Windows keeps you from doing it, I'd hardly consider that "flawed" at all, it's just not a default feature.
BigKaboom2 wrote:Why is OS X "productivity" a concern if you're using Vista at work? And how do you know OS X definitively improves productivity compared to Vista?
BigKaboom2 wrote:If I'm not mistaken, Joe is younger than the average white collar worker so I'm not sure how he came to the same conclusion.
BigKaboom2 wrote:Do you realize that advertisers make extravagant claims all the time, and that not all of them are completely accurate? I've never seen a Mac user question a claim from Steve Jobs even once.
JaoSming wrote:my god, did you really just bitch about an optional program's update window which can be set to the background?
Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:48 am
Well, an anti-virus pop-up that has a mandatory update where you really can't do anything but wait, while I don't see such things on OS X.
Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:21 am
BigKaboom2 wrote:Why is OS X "productivity" a concern if you're using Vista at work? And how do you know OS X definitively improves productivity compared to Vista?
If I'm not mistaken, Joe is younger than the average white collar worker so I'm not sure how he came to the same conclusion.
Maybe it's just the Apple marketing?
Do you realize that advertisers make extravagant claims all the time, and that not all of them are completely accurate? I've never seen a Mac user question a claim from Steve Jobs even once.
Sorry Sorry, Ill go back to enjoying my flawed UI design which works perfectly for everyone I know and seems to work great for explaining to noobs here how to install patches.
Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:57 am
BigKaboom2 wrote:If I'm not mistaken, Joe is younger than the average white collar worker so I'm not sure how he came to the same conclusion.
Do you realize that advertisers make extravagant claims all the time, and that not all of them are completely accurate? I've never seen a Mac user question a claim from Steve Jobs even once.
It's only flawed if you do feel the need to have your frequently used icons on the desktop, which not everyone necessarily needs. And since there is a way to do it, and it's not like Windows keeps you from doing it, I'd hardly consider that "flawed" at all, it's just not a default feature.
my god, did you really just bitch about an optional program's update window which can be set to the background?
It is quite condescending to imply that all apple users are mindless drones being manipulated by Steve Job's marketing strategy. I can just as easily say that non-apple users support microsoft based partially on those very same advertisements, primarily because they consider apple to be "trendy." And in true postmodern cynical fashion, in order to rebel and feel individual, they choose not to even try apple in an act of faux-autonomy, when in fact they are supporting a company (microsoft) which statistically speaking still at least doubles the apple community. So while it is true apple advertisements may have "affected" me, I would argue they have similarly and equally "affected" you... perhaps in an even more predictable fashion.
To me, I think it is a telling that the majority, if not all, mac users have used a microsoft based pc in the past, while most mac naysayers rarely touch a mac for more than an hour at a time. You tell me who is more in a position to judge the two. It's not that I don't question apple, I would like some small changes, and I do acknowledge that the apple os does give up some things (though bootcamp/vmware/parallels somwhat nullifies that), but, in the end, I have tangibly found that my gain far exceeds that. The biggest negative of an apple vs a pc is the lack of upgrade options (in terms of doing it yourself), but again I am willing to sacrifice that for the closed software/hardware system.
The next biggest negative buying an apple, really, is the cost... but that only factors in the initial price tag... sure a hybrid may be more visibly expensive than a non-hybrid, but, in the end, you do save money. I would argue that the same is true with an apple; I have owned my apple for a year, and it still feels brand new in terms of performance... most pc's slow down noticeably within a year in my experience, unless you constantly reformat/upgrade/defrag/scan for viruses or malware/registry fix, etc.... which costs money, time, or both... the average lifespan of a mac exceeds that of a pc, sometimes without even trying. An apple also retains it's resell value far longer than a custom or even brand named pc does, as well as consumes less energy. Just because something looks cheaper, it doesn't mean it is cheaper.
Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:48 am
Joe' wrote:BigKaboom2 wrote:If I'm not mistaken, Joe is younger than the average white collar worker so I'm not sure how he came to the same conclusion.
I work a lot with pro applications at home. Mostly Photoshop and Illustrator, sometimes Final Cut Pro and iMovie, and they teach us After Effects and Flash at school, so I do notice the difference in productivity and usability between XP and OS X (never used Vista, never plan to).
Joe' wrote:BigKaboom2 wrote:Do you realize that advertisers make extravagant claims all the time, and that not all of them are completely accurate? I've never seen a Mac user question a claim from Steve Jobs even once.
You mean like 1992 when Microsoft claimed to have invented and to be the first to implement the GUI? Or when IBM claimed to have invented the mouse?
Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:52 am
BigKaboom2 wrote:That would be fine if you wanted to debate Adobe software vs. Apple software, but including that in a Vista vs. OS X debate is silly.
I still don't understand what "usability" is supposed to mean. If I can use it, it's usable.
Productivity-wise, I think someone needs to give examples of what exactly is causing the productivity increase, as I can't really fathom what you might be talking about. Just sounds like a stream of buzzwords to me, as it always has.
This is a straw man, much like many of your arguments in response to benji's posts. I said nothing about Microsoft and IBM being truthful advertisers. My point, in fact, is that the logical thing to do is ignore the advertising and judge it yourself. Then explain it to other people using easily comprehensible terminology instead of marketing jargon. Apple chanting "elegant, elegant, elegant, elegant" in my ear is completely irrelevant to my opinion of it.
Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:02 am
Having five applications open, two to three windows per application, sometimes more, is suicide on Windows.
Another thing that makes OS X more functional is the fact that I don't actually have to move my mouse to perform the most basic commands. I can set Keyboard Shortcuts to do almost everything, from switching windows to look up things in the dictionary, to specific application chores.
Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:53 am
Oh, I get it. So you're allowed to think I'm an "idiot" for having a Mac and yet I can't think people who use Windows just because that's what they've always used are close-minded?
I'm pretty sure by this you meant every Mac user is an idiot
A computer should be ready right out of the box, it shouldn't rely on users changing options and sliders in order for the OS to be less annoying... It shouldn't be annoying in the first place, that's what you don't understand.
If you used itfor at least a year, by now you would know it actually improves productivity, since most professionals use it.
No, it does not. From my personal experience I can say on XP, it takes 5x the time it takes on Mac OS X for the computer to wake.
...
Interesting. When I had XP, 50% of the time, the computer never wakes up from sleep mode, hence, the reason why I stopped using sleep mode because I had to reboot anyway.
On a PC, you don't get choices, Windows come pre-installed in 99% of PCs you buy in every retail store.
So, while on a Mac you can natively (again, legally. There are ways to install OS X on PCs) have OS X, XP, Vista, any Linux distribution, Solaris, BSD, BeOS AND all the other open-source OSes, and choose which one you want to boot at startup, on a PC you only get one version of Windows (unless you hack something, which is not a valid option since we are talking natively), any Linux distro OR any other open-source OS, and you still can't install OS X, which, again in my opinion, is the best OS.
This whole time you haven't listed a non-videogame-related application not available for Mac OS X.
As I said, you think ... people who use [Macs] are idiots
If Indy thinks there is no reason to go with PC, why is his opinion less valid than yours?
You have to either buy or download anti-virus software, unless you're ok with viruses and malware.
I'm not sure if Macs are that much more pricey, really. If you consider the quality of the hardware of the Mac Pros and the software that comes with OS X, it would be pretty comparable to buying a Dell machine of equivalent value.
Using logic here. If you have a crowded taskbar and the only visual cue is...blah blah blah
Sure, having a second screen or a larger display will increase productivity, but as magius said, that is unfair. I'm talking about identical monitors with OS X and Windows.
For the love of god, I don't understand why there is no keyboard shortcut in Windows to minimize a single damn window.
I prefer to have a shortcut to the Applications folder with all my applications on my dock, or search for the app I need with Spotlight, or even better press a key combo and have Quicksilver open that application for me... but to each his own.
Having five applications open, two to three windows per application, sometimes more, is suicide on Windows.
it's never been implemented in Windows, and that's a real shame because it actually speeds things up.
Another thing that makes OS X more functional is the fact that I don't actually have to move my mouse to perform the most basic commands. I can set Keyboard Shortcuts to do almost everything, from switching windows to look up things in the dictionary, to specific application chores.
Just pointing out that Windows users complaining about the ads are just as annoying as Mac fanboys complaining about Microsoft "stealing" from Apple.
Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:36 pm
BigKaboom2 wrote:I still don't understand what "usability" is supposed to mean. If I can use it, it's usable.
BigKaboom2 wrote:Productivity-wise, I think someone needs to give examples of what exactly is causing the productivity increase, as I can't really fathom what you might be talking about. Just sounds like a stream of buzzwords to me, as it always has.
Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:03 pm
benji wrote:Don't you keep talking about how much MacOS can be customized? Sounds like users need to change options.
benji wrote:This doesn't make any sense. If I used MacOS for at least a year, because select professionals in certain fields use it, I would then suddenly realize it improves productivity? Even though it doesn't improve my productivity because I'm already in the 99th percentile of computer users?
benji wrote:I do? Because I got rid of all mine or stopped running it as I never found anything in the last decade.
benji wrote:Well, I am sorry that I don't fit your user experience theory and have the capability to remember the order of taskbar items especially since they stay in that order. I remove one and somehow my brain is able to note that the closed one is no longer there and therefore they have been reallocated to the space. I do not struggle or even think about the taskbar, which is again my argument for why my productivity does not increase from swapping OSes.
benji wrote:You mean like a Start menu...or Vista's Run dialog box? (Win+R!)
benji wrote:Alt+Space+N? (Which I swapped to Win+M as I never minimize all windows.)
Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:34 pm
Although usability experts are information architects
Just because you're expert with Windows doesn't mean that you'll be just as productive or less productive with OS X. I'm willing to bet you'd be more productive with OS X
I'm even willing to bet you that you could create 5 folders on the desktop, name each one of them, then rename them all 20x faster than you could do on Windows. How? No mouse clicks and minimal keyboard shortcuts: cmd-shift-n, arrow keys and the return key.
Once your windows gets merged into a group, you're not going to remember the sequence unless you're a freak and memorized the sequence beforehand.
When you get to 20 windows open, they will clog up your taskbar while OS X's dock will remain exactly the same as it was. It might be ok for you, but it's not the same for 99% of users, and again, I'm willing to bet you'd be faster managing 20 open windows on OS X than on Windows.
Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:02 pm
Why am I creating folders on the desktop in the first place? Then why am I renaming them all and deciding to use only the keyboard? Creating random desktop folders and arrow keying between them is "productivity" now?
And I will remember the sequence, it is the order I opened them.
Why do I want twenty open windows? I'm not BigKaboom, I want my IMs tabbed, my web browser tabbed. I wish my Excel was tabbed, etc.
A Mac continues to be more expensive and less capable than a PC for me.
Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:59 pm
benji wrote:Why do people keep assuming I have no hands-on time with the MacOS? Because I didn't have the "user experience design" that they did?
benji wrote:Why am I creating folders on the desktop in the first place? Then why am I renaming them all and deciding to use only the keyboard? Creating random desktop folders and arrow keying between them is "productivity" now?
... Would MacOS improve my typing speed? Because that looks like the only "productivity" limitation here.
benji wrote:And I will remember the sequence, it is the order I opened them...
Why do I want twenty open windows? I'm not BigKaboom, I want my IMs tabbed, my web browser tabbed. I wish my Excel was tabbed, etc.
Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:17 am
There is no way to settle this discussion as it all comes to personal preference in the end.
Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:19 am
Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:21 am
Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:31 am
el badman wrote:Correct, but I think it's only fair for PC users who know how to use their machine to show the absurdity of most of the usual attacks on PCs. There's a difference between expecting your computer to work well and being too damn lazy to allow that to happen.
These are just two completely different products and should considered as such. However, if you're gonna make wild statements about how the other machine doesn't work the way it should (or could), you better be able to back it up. So far, all I've seen about how lame PCs are is clearly a matter of preference, mostly about UI, rather than actual flaws.
Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:35 am
Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:47 am
Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:02 am
Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:09 am
Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:16 am
el badman wrote:shortcuts that open an application in 1.4 seconds instead of 2.2