Superman/Dark Knight Crossover in 2016

[shadowgrin]

CANNOT BE EXPLAINED! IT'S SUBJECTIVE! STOP DOCKING AROUND BENJI!

[benji]

I'm just surprised nobody took issue with me hinting that Nicholson's Joker is more frightening than Ledger's.

[Sauru]

the iron man movies were ok at best but robert downey killed it as tony stark.

Iron Man 3 sucked. Even Tony Stark couldn't make it good. And it was great and all, but Robert Downey kinda mixed up his Sherlock & Tony Stark act. And I think you are discrediting the Batman series just because it was a superhero movie trilogy & PG-14 unlike most other Bale movies.

no no, i like the batman movies. maybe i am not making that point clear? i am saying the movies were good but not because of bale. bale carried many other movies with amazing performances but in the batman trilogy he was just ok. the villains were the stars in those movies. bale is going to be credited for it though since he was persistent in all 3. i am saying that i think its sad that he will be remembered for playing batman when it was not close to his best work

[shadowgrin]

I'm just surprised nobody took issue with me hinting that Nicholson's Joker is more frightening than Ledger's.

Because they're afraid of ending up like Bob even if he was the number one guy.

[SoF'nAwesome]

Quite the nice discussion. shadowgrin butthurt 'cause I said subjective too many times & said Lewis is ugly comparatively.

For one thing you and NovU could actually try to explain why Bale and Hathaway and whoever else was so great, and/or why the others weren't.

I'm not gonna quote the rest of your post. I read it, but it's not something you reply line by line. So, I'm just gonna reply.

I'm gonna go all Bale. So before that let me just make a note on Catwoman. She is supposed to be a femme fatale who teases Bruce Wayne/Batman & makes him feel unlike himself. I think Hathaway pulled that deep chemistry off with Bale quite well which is the reason I liked her more as Catwoman than the others. With Pfeiffer it just felt like "I HAVE TO DO THIS" & be honest to yourself, who fitted and rocked the outfit better?

Back to Bale. Let's start with Begins. The first shit is him getting trained by Ra's. Here we see the potential Bale has as the athletic Bruce Wayne. Other stuff in the start is him getting slapped by his childhood friend & getting tossed out by some henchmen. Here we get the loner & growing strong fact that Bale did outstandingly. From the slap to telling Alfred "what the fuck is your problem?", Bale is already owning the Bruce Wayne. And more so in Begins, a lot of iconic scenes that make Bale stand out as Bruce Wayne. And in some scenes, The Batman. Like the scene, where he drops the guy from 30 or 40 feet above. The humor is there & Bale pulls it being serious & funny at the same time.

Then to Dark Knight, where it's mainly Batman's movie rather than Wayne's. From the intro "he's here" to gathering up the fakes to the outro. He just owned Batman(now he is a professional). Bale is doing everything. Another addition, is Bale's chemistry with Freeman. Basically, this is the movie Bale owned Batman.

And the last one, Rises. Here Bale goes more deep in the Wayne character while keeping the dark Batman behind him. Another iconic scene at the hospital where Bale just beated tge Tom Cruise's Khalifa jump and/or any other "cool" stunt.

I can give thousands of examples like these as to why Bale is the best Batman/Bruce Wayne ever. So, I don't really know how to proceed. If you don't see what I see as "the shit" how can I "EXPLAIN"(shadowgrin) it to you?

I'm gonna take a hint and assume, you folks watched the Keaton movie while in mid 20s? Don't answer if it breaks your moniker or something.

You just did.
Mixture of that? Gangs of New York. Even the scenes without his hat.
Bale stopped being scary as Batman after Begins.

Don't get me wrong, Gangs of New York was great. But do you see a dark vigilante there with a deep voice?

How did he stop being scary? With being able to move his neck?

I don't know what you expected me to find out comparing young Keaton Vs. old Lewis.

And he isn't that good looking IMO unlike Reeves, Keaton

Ya, didn't really change my mind.

Then Keaton is the best Batman because he did what was asked of him and Keaton did it so well that the comics even adopted an aspect of his portrayal and that is of Wayne being a loner who hides behind the image of a playboy, as benji once stated.

So, he had a better script carrying his ass. This logic can be played in so many ways.

Wrong. 5 divided by 2. Answer can either be 2.5 or 2 1/2. Two correct answers but still the same value.

I want to take live online math lessons from you. Webcam preferred.

Because Ledger carried Bale's ass in that scene.
You can remove Batman in that scene to make it look like Joker was talking and hurting himself and it will still look good.
Now remove Joker from that scene and replace him with an ordinary dirtbag being assaulted by Batman and it just looks normal and nothing special.
Like how Jon Arbuckle is really the most interesting character in the Garfield comic strips and not Garfield.

Still, Bale did perform. Any other actors could have easily just turned themselves into Robocop for that particular scene.

CANNOT BE EXPLAINED! IT'S SUBJECTIVE! STOP DOCKING AROUND BENJI!

What the bitch?

I'm just surprised nobody took issue with me hinting that Nicholson's Joker is more frightening than Ledger's.

I did. I said I found him funny*not the Joker type* after Ledger's performance. Ledger was hired to play Joker, but after the movie the character Joker himself was Ledger. It was that deep. Nicholson played Joker, okay. But Ledger played motherfucking Ledger Joker.

no no, i like the batman movies. maybe i am not making that point clear? i am saying the movies were good but not because of bale. bale carried many other movies with amazing performances but in the batman trilogy he was just ok. the villains were the stars in those movies. bale is going to be credited for it though since he was persistent in all 3. i am saying that i think its sad that he will be remembered for playing batman when it was not close to his best work

It's really hard to compare Batman with anything. Him teaching boxing or doing magic & driving the Batmobile aren't exactly the same thing. But do you think Bale is the best Batman or not?

However, I can relate to you. I liked Hugh Jackman more in Prestige than in any of the Wolverine/X-Men flicks(maybe just because they were not that good?), but when it all ends everybody will remember Hugh Jackman as Wolverine. So, I can see what you mean with Bale.

All are great cinemas. But good enough to be better than Begins? That's another discussion.

Off topic, but since we are talking Batman. My personal Batman based most favorite movie of all time was the animation Under The Red Hood. Then Begins, Dark Knight & Rises. So, what did benji & shadowgrin think of the Joker in Red Hood?

[shadowgrin]

Not butthurt, it's just that no matter how many times it had happened before it still surprises me how people can be so dense.

Don't get me wrong, Gangs of New York was great. But do you see a dark vigilante there with a deep voice?

I didn't see a dark vigilante with a deep voice in TDK and Rises either, maybe someone with sore throat sure.

I did see someone who can easily portray a dark vigilante who can have a deep voice and scare the shite out of people in Gangs of New York except that the movie didn't need him to play that specific role because it's not needed for him to do so.
There's a reason they are called actors.

How did he stop being scary? With being able to move his neck?

Tell me instances in the last two films where he was really scary, acting or appearance wise.

The one where he was so helpless that he had to break Maroni's legs just to extract information?
The one where he was so helpless that had to beat up Joker in the interrogation room just to extract information?
The one where he was so helpless he let himself be led into a trap by Catwoman just to know Bane's location?
The one where he was so helpless after being stabbed by Talia because he wanted to know the trigger's location?

So, he had a better script carrying his ass. This logic can be played in so many ways.

Speaking of logic, first you were dismissing the script as irrelevant, now you're blaming the script as relevant?
Where's the logic in that? Make up your mind plox.

Still, Bale did perform.

Because the script required him to do it.
I now see why it is easier to cop out with answers like that, no reason or thinking required!

[SoF'nAwesome]

Tell me instances in the last two films where he was really scary, acting or appearance wise.

Nolan's Batman as I see it, is a persona of exuding with rage and violence but still adheres to his strict code never to kill. What Bale's Batman lacked in the quality of his stares, he made up for with action and Bale's physique is all in for that. I actually liked how the action films in Begins were shown in the eyes of the victims in which you only saw shadows and fists and then you're out. I actually felt fear, as if it were a horror movie with Batman as the scary creature (which was the intent of the film). In TDK and TDKR, we saw the actions as third person and I liked it. Moves not too flashy and were quickly executed.

Bitch Bale could fight in black clothes and still be scary while Keaton would have to wear the Batsuit to scare up people.

Speaking of logic, first you were dismissing the script as irrelevant, now you're blaming the script as relevant?
Where's the logic in that? Make up your mind plox.

Nice use of emoticons. I never said the script was irrelevant. The script was the main reasoning behind everything. Everything benji was saying was about the script and not Bale's acting. Define this "Keaton is the best Batman because he did what was asked of him and Keaton did it so well"--what does "so well" mean here? Is it because of the script or acting?

And which was the part that was bad in Bale's case? Script or acting?

I don't know what "plox" is. Explain that as well.

Because the script required him to do it.
I now see why it is easier to cop out with answers like that, no reason or thinking required!

Ya, old trick that one.

Keaton was stiff as Bruce Wayne and Batman. Keaton didn't even look like he was remotely trained by Ra's. I'm sorry but simple kicks and a punch here and there was nothing compared to the fighting skills of Bale's batman. Also, I hated Keaton in the fact that he killed at least 3 people in his(script) time as Batman in both movies he was in. This went against everything Batman stands for and Keaton's Batman and just took a shit on it. --This is if I go the benji way. A path I didn't want to go on dissing Keaton...

Bale was great all around, period.

[shadowgrin]

Nolan's Batman as I see it, is a persona of exuding with rage and violence but still adheres to his strict code never to kill. What Bale's Batman lacked in the quality of his stares, he made up for with action and Bale's physique is all in for that. I actually liked how the action films in Begins were shown in the eyes of the victims in which you only saw shadows and fists and then you're out. I actually felt fear, as if it were a horror movie with Batman as the scary creature (which was the intent of the film). In TDK and TDKR, we saw the actions as third person and I liked it. Moves not too flashy and were quickly executed.

That's cute but I said...

Tell me instances in the last two films where he was really scary, acting or appearance wise.

You only mentioned how you liked the different camera angles of the last two films, cool yes but not as scary as the first film.

Bitch Bale could fight in black clothes and still be scary while Keaton would have to wear the Batsuit to scare up people.

That's the point!
Bruce Wayne needing to wear a bat suit to scare criminals.
Bruce Wayne isn't scary, Batman is. Mission accomplished for Keaton then.

I never said the script was irrelevant.

O rly?

It's not how silly that is or how lame the script is, but it's how & if the actor did what was asked of him.

Everything benji was saying was about the script and not Bale's acting. Define this "Keaton is the best Batman because he did what was asked of him and Keaton did it so well"--what does "so well" mean here? Is it because of the script or acting?

I'm not benji.
That statement of mine was in response to your statement about actors doing what was required of them by the script.
Bale's stupid Batman or less than prepared Batman to put it mildly was because of what was required from him by the script, same deal with Keaton being a freak because the script required him to do so but Keaton's was more closer to the source material of having a detective Batman instead of Bale's stupid Batman.

And which was the part that was bad in Bale's case? Script or acting?

Could be either could be both. See my last sentence above.

Keaton was stiff as Bruce Wayne and Batman. Keaton didn't even look like he was remotely trained by Ra's.

Because Bruce Wayne wasn't trained by Ra's at all to be Batman.
Ra's first met Batman when he was already Batman, in the comics.

I'm sorry but simple kicks and a punch here and there was nothing compared to the fighting skills of Bale's batman.

Batman's fighting skills isn't what makes him the best at what he does.

I hated Keaton in the fact that he killed at least 3 people in his(script) time as Batman in both movies he was in. This went against everything Batman stands for and Keaton's Batman and just took a shit on it.

Nope.
Still true to the original source material.
Only thing lacking was Batman using a pistol to execute criminals and then it's perfect.
If anything Keaton or Burton's Batman pays closer respect to the original source material and not shite on it like Bale or Nolan did by turning Batman into Wolverine.


I don't hate Bale as Batman, I enjoy watching the first two films with him as Batman (see how I use present tense, because I still watch it when it's on cable). Rises was just laughable especially with Batman and Bane's voices and Bale's expression when he was stabbed. In the after cinema release of Rises they fixed Bane's voice to be clear and audible but why couldn't they fix Bale's Batman who looked like he was asking for a cough drop every time he speaks.

But saying Bale is the best portrayal of Batman is not even close to the source material of who Batman is.

See my previous statement above of Bale Batman being stupid. Only time I didn't see him being stupid and showed the smart Batman that I know was in the very last part of the last movie where it's revealed that he fixed the autopilot, that's about it.

[NovU]

For one thing you and NovU could actually try to explain why Bale and Hathaway and whoever else was so great, and/or why the others weren't.

I'm no Bale dick rider, I just enjoyed his Batman movies. Hathaway was nice eye pleasure with no major flaw in her acting and just thought she's done a nice job though her role wasn't much.

benji you're the one that's mindlessly bashing his sequel here. I absolutely had zero expectation in the first place with these movies. But my friend recommended me to go watch Batman Begins as he thought it was great when it came out, so I did, but before, I was like "here we go again, another typical superhero movie", but found myself pleasantly surprised at how entertaining it was. No goofy villains or crap boring jokes, but it was rather serious and dark atmosphere that was interesting and thought Bale was a nice fit into the world. Then came the second one, I had no expectation again because no follow up's better than original. It wasn't better but was decent. So was the third one. I only watched these movies once anyway. Not worthy of much replay value at least for a long time imo, but were entertaining.

So... benji, what superhero movies do you think were better than Bale's sequel in recent hollywood blockbusters? Avengers? LoL, That new spidey man with even crappier Spiderman actor? LoL. Last superman movie was nice, and so were the Batman trilogy for their genre.

[benji]

Here's some REAL badass Batman fighting:

phpBB [video]

Back to Bale. Let's start with Begins. The first shit is him getting trained by Ra's. Here we see the potential Bale has as the athletic Bruce Wayne. Other stuff in the start is him getting slapped by his childhood friend & getting tossed out by some henchmen. Here we get the loner & growing strong fact that Bale did outstandingly. From the slap to telling Alfred "what the fuck is your problem?", Bale is already owning the Bruce Wayne. And more so in Begins, a lot of iconic scenes that make Bale stand out as Bruce Wayne.

Didn't I say Bale was great as Bruce Wayne?

I think Hathaway pulled that deep chemistry off with Bale quite well which is the reason I liked her more as Catwoman than the others. With Pfeiffer it just felt like "I HAVE TO DO THIS" & be honest to yourself, who fitted and rocked the outfit better?

There's zero chemistry between Hathaway and Bale and even less between their characters. In what scene does either of them even express any emotions?

And Pfeiffer destroys probably everybody in any of the Batman films, including Ledger, that character arc was so nailed she didn't need to save one life for next Christmas but she did anyway.

but after the movie the character Joker himself was Ledger. It was that deep.

lmao. The only thing anyone has taken from Nolan's Joker is the Glasgow Smile. Because everything else was either: A. Already part of the character. or B. Completely irrelevant and not at all in line with the character.

Nicholson's Joker still works because he's both funny and as Bob sadly found out quite insane. He no longer has the moral guiding line, now the critique of Nicholson's Joker is his pre-Joker life, but we can handwave that away just like we can not watch the second half of TDKR.

Ledger's Joker isn't insane, he has a justification and moral philosophy for why he does what he does, he constantly has a rational plan. His threat to Batman that he'll break his one rule is never carried out and he never attempts to even do it. The lone place where we see him show any kind of irrational pure joy instead of rational, logical calculation is during the interrogation scene. (All his planning throughout the film makes you doubt his willingness to let Dent shoot him in the head.) His power throughout the film comes entirely from his rational worldview that nobody else is willing to cross the arbitrary lines society sets. Yet.

For an ideal example, contrast this with when Gordon shoots the Joker in the knee at the end of No Man's Land and he finds it fucking hysterical interpreting it as a joke by GORDON.

That's frightening, a lot of Nicholson's character is frightening with irrationality, Hamill (and Baker who swiped it thankfully) peppering his speech with inappropriate laughs and giggles makes him frightening, Nolan's is for the most part just another chaos obsessed terrorist. Ho hum.

Off topic, but since we are talking Batman. My personal Batman based most favorite movie of all time was the animation Under The Red Hood. Then Begins, Dark Knight & Rises. So, what did benji & shadowgrin think of the Joker in Red Hood?

I have not watched this because the comic story it's based on was pretty lousy. But I don't think I've heard Bender/Ballmer doing The Joker yet so maybe I will watch it.

I absolutely had zero expectation in the first place with these movies. But my friend recommended me to go watch Batman Begins as he thought it was great when it came out, so I did, but before, I was like "here we go again, another typical superhero movie", but found myself pleasantly surprised at how entertaining it was.

I had no expectation again because no movie sequel's better than original.

So you were biased due to misinformation, how does this help someone who wasn't biased? (lol at second statement)

No goofy villains

lol, Nolan's trilogy is full of goofy villians.

So... benji, what superhero movies do you think were better than Bale's sequel in recent hollywood blockbusters? Avengers? LoL, That new spidey man with even crappier Spiderman actor? LoL. Last superman movie was nice, and so were the Batman trilogy for their genre.

So why are you confining me to recent blockbusters even though I've already bashed their ADHD slogfests? Oh, so you can yell "LOW EXPECTATIONS" and then talk about how amazing it is that someone met them. That's soft bigotry.

[NovU]

So why are you confining me to recent blockbusters even though I've already bashed their ADHD slogfests? Oh, so you can yell "LOW EXPECTATIONS" and then talk about how amazing it is that someone met them. That's soft bigotry.

So why are you bullying Bale and his Batman movies to detriment like LBJ does Chalmers and MJ did to inferior fellow human beings, as if anybody was arguing Bale's Batman were top notch performance movies like it's once in generational thingies. You got your own bigotry going on there. Don't try to define or confine what good movies are to your own standard, not everyone enjoys the movies in the same way you do. Some can appreciate and still enjoy shitty Celtics basketball while hating the way Spurs play despite their superior basketball for decades.

[benji]

I've long suspected that you have reading comprehension issues.

[SoF'nAwesome]

So, now we are on to Bale Vs. Keaton & Ledger Vs. Nicholson. I will continue on that later.

As for shadowgrin with the script punch, "a movie that benji wrote and directed sucked and received negative reviews for its lack of realism and shit but shadowgrin who played the main character was praised for his acting". That's how the script can be both relevant & irrelevant.

[shadowgrin]

I'm not dissing Bale as a lousy actor, well except in Rises, I'm dissing Bale for being a lousy Batman.

You're confusing Bale the actor and Bale as Batman. You're defending Bale the actor because you think he's the best Batman, he's not.
It's Kevin Conroy.

saying Bale is the best portrayal of Batman is not even close to the source material of who Batman is.

[NovU]

How did you like Bane? I thought Tom Hardy did pretty good. Sure, he was superb in other movies like the Warrior but this one was as a sidekick and as a villain behind the mask so...

[SoF'nAwesome]

Finally got the time to make a lengthy ass post

Seriously. I think this shit of a debate about who's the best Joker should be banned everywhere in the world. Ledger made sure that there should be none.

Joker by Nicholson was basically Nicholson playing his regular persona only with a face Makeup & a costume. But what Ledger did what Joker was just over the TOP. He produced a horrible villain which may not be the comics classic one but by far one the best villains ever on-screen. He seemed capable of anything evil. And with Nicholson, you knew this was the same guy from the Hannibal Lecter movies, but could you tell that it was the same Ledger from 10 Things I Hate About You? What the fuck did Nicholson give us? That will go on for decades like "Why So Serious?!"?

And Nicholson felt a bit lost trying to find that humor. While with Ledger, it was just natural. ("Did your balls drop off?") He found the dark, sadistic jokes the Joker was created for. And he created his own universe. Nicholson just barely played the comics Joker. And Nicholson gave me a pervy feeling while Ledger playing the antagonist in the movie made me root for him. Ledger didn't follow the comics, but he portrayed how the original creators of Batman wanted Joker to be.

Still don't agree with me? Next time while watching the two movies, pause and take a look at Ledger smiling & Nicholson smiling, focus on their eyes.

Joker played by Ledger is timeless & unforgettable. While the Nicholson one will soon be forgotten when people like benji are too old to speak for their childhood superhero.

Now to Keaton & Bale.

Michael Keaton as the flabby, out-of-shape Batman. A padded muscle suit just doesn't disguise the fact that as Bruce Wayne, he is way too thin and unathletic to be a convincing Batman, especially when you compare him with Bale. The Bale Batman is more ruthless & closer to realism(^), while Keaton's one felt unrealistic and '40s related. And I'm saying that knowing that the Keaton Batman killed a fuckload of people. Bale's Batman did a better job at attaining the endearingly dark element while sticking to the No Kill code. Keaton's Batman got beat up by some big black dude. Nobody can imagine Bale going through that. Yes, Bale's Batman got shitted on by Bane, but at least it was Bane.

And Bale created an original voice for the Batman character. What did Keaton do out of the box? His Batman was too whispery.

The Bale movie was a Batman movie. While the Keaton movie was with a guy moving around in the Batsuit, killing people and a very bad car. Still, pure hand to hand, no gadgets, flat open area with nothing to throw each other off of, Bale takes it.

Keaton killing people didn't make his Batman badass. Bale flew into the moving train, beat the crap out of the Joker, beat the crap out of the SWAT team and saved two ferries full of people and no one died...that is BADASS.

Bale Batman mops the floor with Keaton Batman. You should really think about it.

How did you like Bane? I thought Tom Hardy did pretty good. Sure, he was superb in other movies like the Warrior but this one was as a sidekick and as a villain behind the mask so...

Bane was great. Underrated, but when it comes to a Batman villain everybody will remember Ledger. But Hardy did a decent job, I think. BTW, why did you bold the "n" in Bane?

I'm not dissing Bale as a lousy actor, well except in Rises, I'm dissing Bale for being a lousy Batman.

Which is a part of his acting, so you are basically dissing Bale as an actor. It's not as is he acted to his caliber as Bruce Wayne and went Batshit on Batman.

[Sauru]

bale was not a great batman at all, he was serviceable at best. i would consider that stupid voice idea a major negative also. you seem to be going based on looks mostly for why bale is better, i am talking about the acting. bale is an amazing actor and he has done some really amazing work, batman should not be included in that though. people will remember him for batman and thats sad to me.


ledger was a better joker imo, he killed it. not to take anything away from jack but ledger was awesome. in fact all 3 batman movies were driven by the villains, they were the real stars in each one.

[Lean]

And Bale created an original voice for the Batman character. What did Keaton do out of the box? His Batman was too whispery.

From what I read somewhere, Keaton's Batman was the first to use a different voice when donning the Batsuit.

Bale's batvoice was okay in Batman Begins, made me think that his voice was dubbed in that movie since his "throat cancer" began in The Dark Knight.

[benji]

Bane was horrible, his lecture is the worst moment in the entire trilogy and is about the point where you can mark the Nolanverse's Batman and Robin beginning.

Tom Hardy was way better as Shinzon of all the fucking roles. That's how bad Bane was designed in the Nolanverse. And talk about hilariously dumb backstory.

And with Nicholson, you knew this was the same guy from the Hannibal Lecter movies

lol wat

What the fuck did Nicholson give us? That will go on for decades like "Why So Serious?!"?

1. SCRIPTSCRIPTSCRIPTSCRIPTSCRIPTSCRIPT
2. "You wouldn't hit a guy with glasses on, would you? Huh?"

And come on, Batman (1989) has tons of classic lines that have gone on, been used, spoofed, transcended, for decades: "Where does he get all those wonderful toys?", "Wait 'til they get a load of me", "This town needs an enema!", "I'm Batman", "Now you wanna get nuts? COME ON LET'S GET NUTS!"

But what Ledger did what Joker was just over the TOP. ... by far one the best villains ever on-screen. He seemed capable of anything evil. ... While with Ledger, it was just natural. ("Did your balls drop off?") He found the dark, sadistic jokes the Joker was created for.

Nolan's Joker wasn't funny dark or otherwise, wasn't even close to over the top, he was just another coincidence and luck powered terrorist who wants to watch the world burn. Even his projection rants were all by the book.

Ledger playing the antagonist in the movie made me root for him.

lol wat

Ledger didn't follow the comics, but he portrayed how the original creators of Batman wanted Joker to be.

lol wat

when people like benji are too old to speak for their childhood superhero.

lmao

Still, pure hand to hand, no gadgets, flat open area with nothing to throw each other off of, Bale takes it.

oh god

Let me know when you guys are willing to discuss the definitively acted Batman and Joker instead of pretending they don't exist and wanking over these pretenders. Or talk about the actual lone great live action Batman film and how sad it is that it'll probably never be topped. Or the rumors that leaked out about this film, how its plot is pretty dumb and how all sorts of people quit production and Affleck is probably standing around thinking about how much better he'd be as director.

in fact all 3 batman movies were driven by the villains, they were the real stars in each one.

All good Batman tales are driven by the villains, and they're the real stars in all of them as well. Of course, this holds for pretty much any hero. They're only as good as the challenges they face.

[SoF'nAwesome]

bale was not a great batman at all, he was serviceable at best. i would consider that stupid voice idea a major negative also. you seem to be going based on looks mostly for why bale is better, i am talking about the acting. bale is an amazing actor and he has done some really amazing work, batman should not be included in that though. people will remember him for batman and thats sad to me.

Who was the best Batman and why/how was he better than Bale?

Among all his amazing works, Batman should be there as well.

From what I read somewhere, Keaton's Batman was the first to use a different voice when donning the Batsuit.

Bale's batvoice was okay in Batman Begins, made me think that his voice was dubbed in that movie since his "throat cancer" began in The Dark Knight.

But it became a "thing" after Bale did his voice. As for the "throat cancer", it was one of those cult type of things. Many liked it, many didn't.

"lol wat" is the "oh shit" for benji, I'm sure of it now.

2. "You wouldn't hit a guy with glasses on, would you? Huh?"

What the fuck is that?

[benji]

A fucking sweet line delivered at the perfect time.

"lol wat" = are you in the same universe as me, look at the first one for example which talks about the Hannibal Lecter films and ponder it some.

[shadowgrin]

I'm not dissing Bale as a lousy actor, well except in Rises, I'm dissing Bale for being a lousy Batman.

Which is a part of his acting, so you are basically dissing Bale as an actor.

The part where the script told him what to do and he acted on it.
I don't blame Bale for having a craptastic script, I blame him for acting out a craptastic script that resulted in a craptastic Batman. If you don't see the difference in that then you're hopeless and I'm just banging my head on the keyboard.

[SoF'nAwesome]

That is insulting lol mofo just owned me

I mixed up Shining and that. Before making this post, I thought of double checking but then I was like fuck it. Now you get to throw that in my face "lol wat" alright. I feel bad.

However, what about the rest? Or did I make some huge ones there as well?

The part where the script told him what to do and he acted on it.

I don't blame Bale for having a craptastic script, I blame him for acting out a craptastic script that resulted in a craptastic Batman. If you don't see the difference in that then you're hopeless and I'm just banging my head on the keyboard.

I do see the difference in that. So, you are saying Bale should have rejected the offer from Nolan, right? I don't like that thought, but I do get what you and sauru are trying to imply.

[shadowgrin]

I'm not saying or even remotely implying he should have rejected it, where do you get that? Are you that in love with Bale to protect his career choices?

I'm saying Bale's Batman is flawed.

It's not the end all be all of what Batman should be by other actors.

[benji]

Come on look at this, the Joker is completely insane and HAVING A GREAT FUCKING TIME:

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His plan has gone to shit, Batman's fucking up everything AGAIN and kicking his ass, yet he's come PREPARED with wonderful toys and he's still got the time to yell at a gargoyle and point out that Batman's being an idiot about taking things personally instead of just having fun.

The entire film he's having fun because fun things are fun not because you need to be lectured about human nature:

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That's why he's a tremendous Joker. It doesn't take anything away from Ledger's Joker (which is why I've been trying to call it Nolan's) but it's one reason I consider Jack's a better Joker even if I have to say Ledger is the better performance. (Hamill still wins both.)

I'm sure given $185 million (vs. $55ish million in 2007 dollars), 20 more years of cultural, film making and technological developments, no massive writers strike in the midst of filming, ALMOST LITERALLY EVERY GREAT BATMAN STORY (and pretty much every single one not written by Frank Miller), the animated series, less corporate mandates to produce toy ready creations, and someone else doing a "darker and grittier reinvention" of live action Batman already that all the rough and "dated" edges of Batman and Batman Returns (and Forever...there's no saving & Robin) wouldn't be there reminding those who can't get past it that these movies were made when New Kids on the Block had a bunch of hits and Chinese food made me sick. I think it's fly when girls stop by for the summer. For the summer.

Ultimately the problem I have with the Nolanverse outside of its terrible writing and ADHD editing is that nobody's insane. The defining characteristic of O'Neil's rebuilding of the mythos after the CCA birthed Silver Age is that everybody is either insane or suffering from the fact that everybody else is insane. It's why Dick Grayson was considered the spine of the D.C. Universe. Burton got that (and Schumacher claims he did) and it's why his films are darker and deeper in exploring the characters. Especially Returns, which more or less does away with the licensed characters being villains and instead creates one for Christopher Walken to play. (Something that makes Forever so disappointing considering that it had two better "rogues" to work with.)