Robby wrote:I don't think it's fair to just compare totals but its also not fair to compare averages alone either. A big reason why Kareem and Karl's scoring average is down is because they played and are playing past their primes and played diminished minutes and roles in the later stages of their careers. Malone's scoring average will take a big hit soon because he's not going to get many points in LA.
Robby wrote:Michael also took a lot more shots than Malone did to score his points. Let's look at efficiency as well. Malone average 1.41 points per field goal attempts while Michael averaged 1.32 points per field goal attempts. Malone's career FG % is above 50% while MJ's is below 50%.
Robby wrote:But when trying to see who's the greatest scorer, you can't just look at ppg.
87-88 Uth 82 0 39.0 10.5-20.1 .520 0.0-0.1 .000 6.7-9.6 .700 1.4 0.6 4.0 3.6 0.0 3.4 8.6 12.0 2.4 27.7
88-89 Uth 80 0 39.1 10.1-19.5 .519 0.1-0.2 .313 8.8-11.5 .766 1.8 0.9 3.6 3.6 0.0 3.2 7.4 10.6 2.7 29.1
89-90 Uth 82 0 38.1 11.1-19.8 .562 0.2-0.5 .372 8.5-11.1 .762 1.5 0.6 3.7 3.2 0.0 2.8 8.3 11.1 2.8 31.0
90-91 Uth 82 0 40.3 10.3-19.6 .527 0.0-0.2 .286 8.3-10.8 .770 1.1 1.0 3.0 3.3 0.0 2.9 8.9 11.8 3.3 29.0
91-92 Uth 81 0 37.7 9.9-18.7 .526 0.0-0.2 .176 8.3-10.7 .778 1.3 0.6 3.1 2.8 0.0 2.8 8.4 11.2 3.0 28.0
92-93 Uth 82 82 37.8 9.7-17.6 .552 0.0-0.2 .200 7.5-10.2 .740 1.5 1.0 2.9 3.2 0.0 2.8 8.4 11.2 3.8 27.0
93-94 Uth 82 82 40.6 9.4-18.9 .497 0.1-0.4 .250 6.2-9.0 .694 1.5 1.5 2.9 3.3 0.0 2.9 8.6 11.5 4.0 25.2
94-95 Uth 82 82 38.1 10.1-18.9 .536 0.1-0.5 .268 6.3-8.5 .742 1.6 1.0 2.9 3.3 0.0 1.9 8.7 10.6 3.5 26.7
95-96 Uth 82 82 38.0 9.6-18.5 .519 0.2-0.5 .400 6.2-8.6 .723 1.7 0.7 2.4 3.0 0.0 2.1 7.7 9.8 4.2 25.7
96-97 Uth 82 82 36.6 10.5-19.2 .550 0.0-0.2 .000 6.4-8.4 .755 1.4 0.6 2.8 2.6 0.0 2.4 7.5 9.9 4.5 27.4
97-98 Uth 81 81 37.4 9.6-18.2 .530 0.0-0.1 .333 7.8-10.2 .761 1.2 0.9 3.0 2.9 0.0 2.3 8.0 10.3 3.9 27.0
But it would be interesting to see how MJ would have done in the early days of the NBA? Would he have been as effective of a scorer if he didn't get all those calls from refs?
Would Kareem be able to score against guys like KG, Shaq, and TD?
Just try to think of how many problems a skinny guy like Kevin McHale would have trying to guard a 340 pound Shaq?
Or maybe Bill Walton trying his hand at defending Malone
lol all those calls... how far do you want to go back? MJ would be the best athlete on the floor in any era except when he'd play Wilt's team. he'd have a height advantage in the early days since there weren't any 6'6 sgs around. oh and he has some basketball skill too.
yes, the skyhook is unstoppable in any era. its a shame it's not being used now in the nba
yeh but pf's don't primarily don't guard centers, especially the 340lb variety. btw- mchale would give shaq fits on the other side of the ball as well. mchale's repetoire in the post, shaq could only dream of doing. and you couldn't cop out and put in him on the line. mchale could shoot 60% from the field and hit ft's at a 80% clip (first player to do so)
i'd have no problem putting a healthy bill walton on malone. walton was pretty agile center and could match up with a power forward like malone (All-Defensive First Team honors in 1977 and 1978) . his height and reach would enable him to step back a little if he wanted and still be able to challenge a malone jump shot.
if you don't get calls from the refs, then your game really takes a big hit.
Just look at what Detroit did to MJ from 1988-1990. MJ was the best athlete and most skilled player but he didn't get as many calls from the refs, so he struggled mightily against Detroit.
He scored in other ways, many times using his athleticism. I don't think he could as well against the players today, as an example look at 1986 when the Lakers were humbled by the Houston Rockets and the athletic tandem of Hakeem and Ralph Sampson. This is why I think Hakeem would have a tougher time against some of today's athletic big men.
McHale would have the edge in the versatility department but that's meaningless if McHale could never get to hoop since he's not going to back Shaq down.
He could challenge Malone's jumper but he couldn't stop Karl in the low post. If you've seen Karl Malone play during the 1996-97 and 1997-98 seasons, not just the finals, you'd know that Walton would have almost no shot at checking Malone
MJ's game didn't depend on getting calls on the refs. he didn't need the refs to help him out in his nba finals game 1 winning jumper on russell or the big 3 he hit against utah in the famous flu game. do i need to go on? sure he may have gotten favorable calls in his career, but every superstar gets their fair share.
prove how he wasn't getting many calls. jordan and the team's lack of success was due to detroit's defense and jordan's lack of a support from his teammates, nothing to do with the lack of calls. detroit was the arguably the best defensive team at the time and employed their jordan rules which was effective. with you being a detroit native, i feel no need to explain. btw ask steve kerr about jordan not getting any calls lol
you lost me on that one. we talking about hakeem or jabar?
Mchale repetoire on the offensive end didn't only consist of backing down defenders. you even said yourself that mchale is versatile
first off, unlikely Walton would be guarding malone since walton is a center and malone is a pf... and if walton's weed smoking ass played in the same era, he most likely be a much bigger then 6'11 235 frame he played with back in the 70's/80's... if walton could check malone's perimeter game, it would make things easier for walton in post. malone can't pull that fadeaway junk since walton's reach would block that so walton would be waiting for malone to muscle his way to the bucket. malone's a strong man, but he's no shaq, he couldn't make walton his biatch on a consistent basis
I think people forget (or don't know) just how good of a player Karl Malone was. You have to be a pretty special player to win the MVP award over Michael Jordan.
Yeah, those two shots were clean but the plays before them were ridiculous. In Game 1, with Chicago down 1, Hornacek got called for a touch foul that put MJ on the line and helped tie the game which eventually set up his game-winner. In the flu game, before making the 3 pointer, MJ was at the line shooting free throws because of another very questionable call. He shot 12 free-throws that game. Also, it's funny how you forgot to mention game 6 in 98 when he pushed Russell to get his shot off. He shot 15 free throws in that game.
You talk about the Jordan rules, so to prove my point, go read the Book by Sam Smith. I'll sum it up for you. The Pistons took clips of Jordan getting touch calls and sent them into the league office which resulted in less foul calls being called against Detroit. Thus Michael wasn't able to do as much as against Detroit and the Pistons beat the bulls three straight years.
Kareem. I was trying to explain that Kareem didn't use the skyhook all the time but also his athleticism. This worked against most centers but not against the athletic Hakeem and Ralph Sampson. As a result, LA lost to Houston in 5 games, I believe, in the 1986 playoffs. This is why he'd struggle today against the athletic big men.
True, McHale is versatile but that's only helpful in the low post, not 15 feet out. I don't think he could back down Shaq or get past Shaq, so his versatility wouldn't be a very big factor.
You're the one who said Walton could guard Malone.
Just try to think of how many problems a skinny guy like Kevin McHale would have trying to guard a 340 pound Shaq? Or maybe Bill Walton trying his hand at defending Malone? Even with double teams, those two guys would have their way
I think people forget (or don't know) just how good of a player Karl Malone was. You have to be a pretty special player to win the MVP award over Michael Jordan
You have to be very good to beat the tandem of Hakeem and Charles Barkely by yourself.
Last, but not least, going through Shaq and Elden Campbell
I'd say he could easily destroy Bill Walton.
Bourbon wrote:I think people forget (or don't know) just how good of a player Karl Malone was. You have to be a pretty special player to win the MVP award over Michael Jordan.
Or you can be an undeserving, overrated charity case. There's no way Malone should've won the MVP in 1997, and I will not debate this.
"Karl definitely fits my criteria for MVP, not just as a player having a great year, but one having a great impact on his team."
-- Denver Post columnist Mike Monroe in a Deseret News (Salt Lake City) copyrighted story, Apr. 5, 1997.
"Can Karl Malone finally win an MVP award? Through Sunday (Mar. 30) he was averaging 27.8 points (on 54.8% shooting), 10.4 rebounds and 4.5 assists while leading Utah to the top record in the Western Conference. While Malone, 33, is not a better player than Michael Jordan, he may well be more indispensable to his team."
-- Sports Illustrated, Apr. 7, 1997
"Utah's Karl Malone is the Most Valuable Player this season. End of subject."
-- sports columnist Eddie Sefko, Houston Chronicle, Apr. 6, 1997
"At age 33, the man who invented the position of modern power forward is having his finest season, and you could make a case that he has actually been more dominant than Jordan himself ... Malone for MVP."
-- Dave D'Allesandro, writing in The Newark Star-Ledger, Apr. 6, 1997.
"Michael has kept the Bulls there ... But I think Karl deserves it."
-- Houston's Charles Barkley, Houston Chronicle, Apr. 6, 1997
Psycho Jackal wrote:Robby wrote:About strenght, I'd say Shaq is bigger than Malone, but Malone is stronger.
You've got to be kidding me on that one, Malone might be strong and all, but stronger then Shaq, hard to believe.
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as i said before, every superstar gets their fair share of calls. i'm sure a lot of times malone went to the line, those calls could have easily gone the other way.
point taken, but don't most teams do this anyway (especially in the playoffs). if you want to attribute to the zebras not blowing the whistle for MJ as the main factor in MJ losing to the Pistons, no problem. i have no problem disagreeing. IMO, jordan's lack of success was due to detroit's excellent defense, probably the best team defense he faced his entire career (also joe dumars guarded him best jordan would admit).
k its debateable but i don't feel like disagreeing or sound like i'm selectively replying to your comments
mchale could hit the 15 foot jumper to keep shaq honest and also mchale was a master of getting great angles to get off his shot and getting to the free throw line
actually you were the one who was implying malone would be an utter mismatch for walton:
so i took the position in defending him.
i agree with bourbon's assessment
please, you're being such a homer there. first off, hakeem and barkley were clearly way past their prime (then stockalone) and if can remember it was stockton hitting some big shots and houston choking away the lead in that game 7 where stock hit the 3, not your superman, malone
that lakers team was a gutless team pre-phil jackson. had a lot of talent but if wasn't the jazz that was going to beat them, it was going to be the blazers & spurs (who enjoyed sweeping them also).
i could see walton giving malone problems and vice versa. fair enough? walton's no slouch, it seems you're underrating walton's defensive abilities.
another thing about malone's 'greatness' and him being superbuff: neither has gotten him rings as we speak. he had some memorable performances on the NBA's biggest stage, the NBA finals (39 pts, 9rebs game 5 '98 finals... 37 pts in game 3 '97 finals to name a few) but let's not forget the he's had some games where he choked in the finals also: the missed free throws in '97 finals game 1 setting MJ's game winner (no push required)... same year, game 2, shot 6 for 20... the flu game where malone settled for jumped shots for most of the game and also took some bad shots in 4th qtr and missed some more free throws...game 4 '98 finals, unable to get key baskets for his team down the stretch in a thrilling 86-82 bulls win.... losing the ball to jordan in the winding seconds in game 6 '98 finals... it wouldn't be far fetched to say that malone choked away more games as he did win for the utah jazz in the nba finals games he played in.
at least barkley was giving gutsy performances: had fluid drained from a bruised right elbow and took anti-inflammatory medicine just before the start of a game) 24pt, 19 rebs... dropped a playoff triple-double (32 points, 12 rebounds and 10 assists) in his teams losses in the nba finals
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