Career Scoring Leaders

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Career Scoring Leaders

Postby Andrew on Sat Oct 04, 2003 9:07 pm

We all know that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the career scoring leader with 38387 points. Karl Malone is closing in with 36374 points. Two other familiar names, Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain, have 32292 points and 31419 points respectively.

Amazingly, Kareem only finished as the league leader in points per game in two of his 20 seasons. Late in his career, he wasn't even in the top five scorers each year. The Mailman never led the league in scoring, and like Kareem has not ranked among the league's top five scorers the past few years. Yet, he is on the verge of breaking Kareem's record, something we didn't expect to see so soon.

But are Karl and Kareem the NBA's greatest scorers? Or are their career totals simply proof they are consistent scorers who enjoyed long careers?

Both MJ and Wilt would have over 40000 career points had they maintained their career scoring average over the same amount of games as the men they trail. They wouldn't even need to play as many games as Kareem (1560) or Malone (1434 and counting) to better their marks.

Wilt scored 100 points in a game, averaged 50.4 ppg for a season and led the NBA in scoring 7 years in a row. MJ is the career scoring leader in the playoffs (his 33.4 ppg is an NBA best, and he accumulated 5987 points in fewer games than it took Kareem to score 5762 points), he has 10 scoring titles (including 7 in a row) and scored a playoff high 63 points in a single game. Both finished their careers with an average of 30.1 ppg (though to two decimal places, MJ's is the highest average). And it's well documented that both MJ and Wilt were awesome offensive weapons.

But all their scoring records will be ignored, as their total career points for the regular season rank third and fourth behind Kareem and the Mailman. Don't get me wrong, those guys deserve credit for what they've accomplished, and what they've accomplished (and for that matter, what Malone can still accomplish) is no small feat. But the fact remains, they were able to score some of those points because they played beyond the average length of an NBA career.

Wilt and MJ aren't that far away from Kareem and Karl, and they didn't play nearly as many games. They've achieved so many other offensive marks - consecutive points, the most points by a single player in a single game (both regular season and playoffs), averaging at least 20 ppg every season, averaging over 50 ppg, tallying over 30000 points, 17 scoring titles. These are just some of the combined accomplishments of the guys that rank 3 and 4 in career points - the guys who rank 1 and 2 do not hold quite as many records.

Also consider Robert Parish and Larry Bird, former teammates in Boston. Parish's total of 23334 points is superior to Bird's 21791, but Parish played nearly twice as many games as Larry Legend, while his career scoring average (14.5) is almost 10 fewer than Bird's (24.3). Who is the better scorer? The guy who accumulated more points in nearly twice as many games, or the guy with a higher scoring average who accumulated almost as many points in just over half as many games?

Again, what Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Karl Malone have accomplished cannot be downplayed as a small feat. They have scored close to 40000 points, they have career averages of over 24 ppg, they've been great offensive players throughout their careers. But their high career totals are greatly assisted by their longer than average careers. Career averages, scoring titles and records as well as a player's skills must also be taken into consideration when determining how great a scorer a player is/was.

With that in mind, I believe Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain are the NBA's two greatest scorers in NBA history. Kareem and Karl are certainly great, no question. But MJ and Wilt have set so many other scoring records on top of their placing on the list of career points leaders which set them apart from other great offensive players.
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Postby Dramacydal on Sat Oct 04, 2003 9:48 pm

agree, michael and wilt r definetly the leagues greatest scorers, malone and kareem jus r the most constant scorers and had really long careers...thats why they got so many points
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Postby Fresh8 on Sat Oct 04, 2003 10:36 pm

I agree!

MJ and Wilt are great scorers because of their averages pr game. Malone and Kareem are consistent scorers who had long careers! It doesn't mean that Malone/Kareem aren't great...they are- but not as great a scorer as MJ or Wilt!

It's pretty funny cause I was talking to my friend the other day.He was talkin about how Shaq missed heaps of games and wouldn't score more than Kevin Garnett...and I said how Shaq may not have a better full season total points...but he would have a better average because he is a good scorer. And Shaq would be a better scorer than KG even when missing 20 games or so...(Not saying Shaq IS better now...but anyhow..)

I guess this is an OK example of the difference between getting total points and points per game which is IMO what ppl get mistaken when comparing someone like Kareem and Jordan when trying to figure out who is the better scorer. Kareem played more games but MJ scored more in the less games he played!
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Postby Stevan on Sat Oct 04, 2003 11:38 pm

It's basically a matter of who is going to give you what on any given night. MJ is going to give you 30 points. Obviously credit is due, and deserved by those guys who managed to play 82 games a year, and 20 years in the league. That's bloody amazing. However although their point totals are a result of being able to score, I believe more credit should go to their longevity rather then their scoring ability. So yeah if you ask me it's the points per game, rebounds per game, assists per game which is the more important stat in discovering who is the better scorer/rebounder/assist maker. Totals are a nice milestone to look back on once someone's career is finished, maybe to see what they contributed to a franchise for example. From an individual standpoint, averages tell you more about a players ability.
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Postby Jackal on Sun Oct 05, 2003 3:50 am

I agree, as do the others, my list would go like this: MJ, Wilt, Kareem and then Malone.

Kareem and Malone are that high because of the number of years they've been playing.
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Postby Robby on Sun Oct 05, 2003 4:38 am

I don't think it's fair to just compare totals but its also not fair to compare averages alone either. A big reason why Kareem and Karl's scoring average is down is because they played and are playing past their primes and played diminished minutes and roles in the later stages of their careers. Malone's scoring average will take a big hit soon because he's not going to get many points in LA.

So, for fun, I calculated adjusted scoring averages of Jordan and Malone from when they were in their primes. Michael averaged 31.5 ppg, which is expected, but Malone's average in just the same number of games Michael played was 27.5 ppg. I'd say that's very good, not as good as Michael, but also not that far off. Michael also took a lot more shots than Malone did to score his points. Let's look at efficiency as well. Malone average 1.41 points per field goal attempts while Michael averaged 1.32 points per field goal attempts. Malone's career FG % is above 50% while MJ's is below 50%. So, does this make make Malone a better scorer than Mike? No. But when trying to see who's the greatest scorer, you can't just look at ppg.
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Postby Andrew on Sun Oct 05, 2003 1:44 pm

Robby wrote:I don't think it's fair to just compare totals but its also not fair to compare averages alone either. A big reason why Kareem and Karl's scoring average is down is because they played and are playing past their primes and played diminished minutes and roles in the later stages of their careers. Malone's scoring average will take a big hit soon because he's not going to get many points in LA.


This is true, but it's the same with MJ and Wilt, too. Jordan's 20 ppg in 2002/2003 is a career low, while Wilt averaged only 13.2 ppg in his final season. Even before the decline in their career scoring average, Wilt and/or MJ had a greater career scoring average.

Robby wrote:Michael also took a lot more shots than Malone did to score his points. Let's look at efficiency as well. Malone average 1.41 points per field goal attempts while Michael averaged 1.32 points per field goal attempts. Malone's career FG % is above 50% while MJ's is below 50%.


That's a good point. As far as field goal percentage and points per field goal attempt, Malone is the more efficient player.

Robby wrote:But when trying to see who's the greatest scorer, you can't just look at ppg.


I agree, which is why I mentioned the other combined accomplishments of both MJ and Wilt. Scoring titles, single game highs, various scoring records, etc.
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Postby Stevan on Sun Oct 05, 2003 1:56 pm

Good points Robby and I agree. Now that you bring it up, a fair way to compare scoring ability would be to use averages during a player's prime, and although you are leaving out the years they might have been ineffective for whatever reason, you are concentrating only on their best scoring years which should tell the story.

I thought about simply looking at the player's best scoring season, but then Jerry Stackhouse would be considered a great scorer which is simply not true.

Comparing guys in their primes is not a bad idea, but it depends on your view on which years they were in their prime, how many years you looked at etc.

(y)
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Postby Stevan on Sun Oct 05, 2003 2:17 pm

87-88 Uth 82 0 39.0 10.5-20.1 .520 0.0-0.1 .000 6.7-9.6 .700 1.4 0.6 4.0 3.6 0.0 3.4 8.6 12.0 2.4 27.7
88-89 Uth 80 0 39.1 10.1-19.5 .519 0.1-0.2 .313 8.8-11.5 .766 1.8 0.9 3.6 3.6 0.0 3.2 7.4 10.6 2.7 29.1
89-90 Uth 82 0 38.1 11.1-19.8 .562 0.2-0.5 .372 8.5-11.1 .762 1.5 0.6 3.7 3.2 0.0 2.8 8.3 11.1 2.8 31.0
90-91 Uth 82 0 40.3 10.3-19.6 .527 0.0-0.2 .286 8.3-10.8 .770 1.1 1.0 3.0 3.3 0.0 2.9 8.9 11.8 3.3 29.0
91-92 Uth 81 0 37.7 9.9-18.7 .526 0.0-0.2 .176 8.3-10.7 .778 1.3 0.6 3.1 2.8 0.0 2.8 8.4 11.2 3.0 28.0
92-93 Uth 82 82 37.8 9.7-17.6 .552 0.0-0.2 .200 7.5-10.2 .740 1.5 1.0 2.9 3.2 0.0 2.8 8.4 11.2 3.8 27.0
93-94 Uth 82 82 40.6 9.4-18.9 .497 0.1-0.4 .250 6.2-9.0 .694 1.5 1.5 2.9 3.3 0.0 2.9 8.6 11.5 4.0 25.2
94-95 Uth 82 82 38.1 10.1-18.9 .536 0.1-0.5 .268 6.3-8.5 .742 1.6 1.0 2.9 3.3 0.0 1.9 8.7 10.6 3.5 26.7
95-96 Uth 82 82 38.0 9.6-18.5 .519 0.2-0.5 .400 6.2-8.6 .723 1.7 0.7 2.4 3.0 0.0 2.1 7.7 9.8 4.2 25.7
96-97 Uth 82 82 36.6 10.5-19.2 .550 0.0-0.2 .000 6.4-8.4 .755 1.4 0.6 2.8 2.6 0.0 2.4 7.5 9.9 4.5 27.4
97-98 Uth 81 81 37.4 9.6-18.2 .530 0.0-0.1 .333 7.8-10.2 .761 1.2 0.9 3.0 2.9 0.0 2.3 8.0 10.3 3.9 27.0

The last row of numbers is Malone's averages. I picked 88 to 98 as his prime because his average jumped from roughly 21 to 27 in 88, and dropped from 27 to roughly 23 in 99, and we won't count 99 because he only played 40-odd games compared to a minimum of 80 games during the 10 year span I chose (which is probably the same one you chose by looking at the numbers). Coincidentally his 10 best seasons just happened to occur one right after the other.

Now MJ... how the hell do we calculate which part of his career was his prime. You don't want to count 94-95 because we know that wasn't his prime. The last two years in Washington weren't. His second season his missed most of the games. So did you just chose his 10 best statistical years like I did with Malone? Or a span from say 87-97, skipping the injury plagued second season but including the first comeback?

Anyways, the topic turned out to be more interesting then I thought (y)

Now if only we could find stats for Kareem and Big Wilty style (though we know what that will show).

edit: whoops there are 11 seasons of Malone's there, not 10 :oops:
Last edited by Stevan on Sun Oct 05, 2003 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Stevan on Sun Oct 05, 2003 2:34 pm

Forgot about playoff scoring averages, another thing to consider...

Anyway here's Kareem's 10 best scoring seasons in no particular order:

28.8, 31.1, 34.8, 30.2, 27, 30, 27.7, 26.2, 26.2, 25.8

= 28.78ppg.

(and I see now you compared Malone to MJ by scoring in the same amount of games)
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Postby paul_pierce_the_truth on Mon Oct 06, 2003 1:01 am

Wilt only won after he decided to pass the ball, instead of hogging it.

Look it up.

Kareem won six nba titles, wilt one 2.

Jabbar was a better leader and way more clutch than Wilt.

Putting Wilt and Jordan together and comparing them to Karl Malone and Kareem is just nonsense. I understand where they rank and so on, this is just another post to hold Michael Jordan up and talk about is greatness.

I have been a Celtics fan my whole life, I admit Michael Jordan is the greatest player ever, but Wilt Chamberlain was a ballhog and never beat the Celtics team play. Averaged 50ppg once 44 another 38 another and averaged 0 tiltes from 1960-1966, the best scoring years of his career.
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Postby air gordon on Mon Oct 06, 2003 7:45 am

the greatest scorer... who knows?

with these 4...i think MJ, wilt, kareem are interchangeable 1-2-3 with malone holdling down the 4th spot

kareem was sure around for a long time to rack up all those points. but let's not forget the skyhook was unstoppable
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Postby Robby on Tue Oct 07, 2003 1:14 am

Comparing guys in their primes is a big factor in finding out who the greatest scorer in league history is. But it would be interesting to see how MJ would have done in the early days of the NBA? Would he have been as effective of a scorer if he didn't get all those calls from refs? Would Kareem be able to score against guys like KG, Shaq, and TD? It's an interesting question that Andrew posed. Personally, I think over the course of NBA history, Malone and Shaq would be most effective scorers. Why? Because those are the two strongest guys in NBA history and only recently has the NBA become a game of strength. Just try to think of how many problems a skinny guy like Kevin McHale would have trying to guard a 340 pound Shaq? Or maybe Bill Walton trying his hand at defending Malone? Even with double teams, those two guys would have their way.

Here's the Efficency stats for the 4 guys:

Kareem: 1.36 points per field goal attempts
Wilt: 1.34 points per field goal attempts
Mailman: 1.41 points per field goal attempts
MJ: 1.32 points per field goal attempts
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Postby air gordon on Tue Oct 07, 2003 8:41 am

But it would be interesting to see how MJ would have done in the early days of the NBA? Would he have been as effective of a scorer if he didn't get all those calls from refs?

lol all those calls... how far do you want to go back? MJ would be the best athlete on the floor in any era except when he'd play Wilt's team. he'd have a height advantage in the early days since there weren't any 6'6 sgs around. oh and he has some basketball skill too.

Would Kareem be able to score against guys like KG, Shaq, and TD?

yes, the skyhook is unstoppable in any era. its a shame it's not being used now in the nba

Just try to think of how many problems a skinny guy like Kevin McHale would have trying to guard a 340 pound Shaq?

yeh but pf's don't primarily don't guard centers, especially the 340lb variety. btw- mchale would give shaq fits on the other side of the ball as well. mchale's repetoire in the post, shaq could only dream of doing. and you couldn't cop out and put in him on the line. mchale could shoot 60% from the field and hit ft's at a 80% clip (first player to do so)[/quote]

Or maybe Bill Walton trying his hand at defending Malone

i'd have no problem putting a healthy bill walton on malone. walton was pretty agile center and could match up with a power forward like malone (All-Defensive First Team honors in 1977 and 1978) . his height and reach would enable him to step back a little if he wanted and still be able to challenge a malone jump shot.
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Postby Robby on Thu Oct 09, 2003 1:32 pm

lol all those calls... how far do you want to go back? MJ would be the best athlete on the floor in any era except when he'd play Wilt's team. he'd have a height advantage in the early days since there weren't any 6'6 sgs around. oh and he has some basketball skill too.


Having great athleticism and skill is good, but if you don't get calls from the refs, then your game really takes a big hit. Just look at what Detroit did to MJ from 1988-1990. MJ was the best athlete and most skilled player but he didn't get as many calls from the refs, so he struggled mightily against Detroit.

yes, the skyhook is unstoppable in any era. its a shame it's not being used now in the nba


The skyhook was unstoppable, but it's not like Kareem shot thirty skyhooks every game. He scored in other ways, many times using his athleticism. I don't think he could as well against the players today, as an example look at 1986 when the Lakers were humbled by the Houston Rockets and the athletic tandem of Hakeem and Ralph Sampson. This is why I think Hakeem would have a tougher time against some of today's athletic big men.

yeh but pf's don't primarily don't guard centers, especially the 340lb variety. btw- mchale would give shaq fits on the other side of the ball as well. mchale's repetoire in the post, shaq could only dream of doing. and you couldn't cop out and put in him on the line. mchale could shoot 60% from the field and hit ft's at a 80% clip (first player to do so)


So who would guard the 340 pound Shaq? Parish, I don't think so. McHale would have the edge in the versatility department but that's meaningless if McHale could never get to hoop since he's not going to back Shaq down.


i'd have no problem putting a healthy bill walton on malone. walton was pretty agile center and could match up with a power forward like malone (All-Defensive First Team honors in 1977 and 1978) . his height and reach would enable him to step back a little if he wanted and still be able to challenge a malone jump shot.


He could challenge Malone's jumper but he couldn't stop Karl in the low post. If you've seen Karl Malone play during the 1996-97 and 1997-98 seasons, not just the finals, you'd know that Walton would have almost no shot at checking Malone. Malone's agility could match Walton's, and Malone has more range on his jumper than Bill. Obviously, there's no comparison between the two players when strength is in question.
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Postby Old School Fool on Thu Oct 09, 2003 2:02 pm

I think Andrew is Intelligent... :D
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Postby air gordon on Thu Oct 09, 2003 5:58 pm

if you don't get calls from the refs, then your game really takes a big hit.

MJ's game didn't depend on getting calls on the refs. he didn't need the refs to help him out in his nba finals game 1 winning jumper on russell or the big 3 he hit against utah in the famous flu game. do i need to go on? sure he may have gotten favorable calls in his career, but every superstar gets their fair share.

Just look at what Detroit did to MJ from 1988-1990. MJ was the best athlete and most skilled player but he didn't get as many calls from the refs, so he struggled mightily against Detroit.

prove how he wasn't getting many calls. jordan and the team's lack of success was due to detroit's defense and jordan's lack of a support from his teammates, nothing to do with the lack of calls. detroit was the arguably the best defensive team at the time and employed their jordan rules which was effective. with you being a detroit native, i feel no need to explain. btw ask steve kerr about jordan not getting any calls lol

He scored in other ways, many times using his athleticism. I don't think he could as well against the players today, as an example look at 1986 when the Lakers were humbled by the Houston Rockets and the athletic tandem of Hakeem and Ralph Sampson. This is why I think Hakeem would have a tougher time against some of today's athletic big men.

you lost me on that one. we talking about hakeem or jabar?

McHale would have the edge in the versatility department but that's meaningless if McHale could never get to hoop since he's not going to back Shaq down.

Mchale repetoire on the offensive end didn't only consist of backing down defenders. you even said yourself that mchale is versatile

He could challenge Malone's jumper but he couldn't stop Karl in the low post. If you've seen Karl Malone play during the 1996-97 and 1997-98 seasons, not just the finals, you'd know that Walton would have almost no shot at checking Malone

first off, unlikely Walton would be guarding malone since walton is a center and malone is a pf... and if walton's weed smoking ass played in the same era, he most likely be a much bigger then 6'11 235 frame he played with back in the 70's/80's... if walton could check malone's perimeter game, it would make things easier for walton in post. malone can't pull that fadeaway junk since walton's reach would block that so walton would be waiting for malone to muscle his way to the bucket. malone's a strong man, but he's no shaq, he couldn't make walton his biatch on a consistent basis
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Postby Robby on Fri Oct 10, 2003 1:07 pm

MJ's game didn't depend on getting calls on the refs. he didn't need the refs to help him out in his nba finals game 1 winning jumper on russell or the big 3 he hit against utah in the famous flu game. do i need to go on? sure he may have gotten favorable calls in his career, but every superstar gets their fair share.


Yeah, those two shots were clean but the plays before them were ridiculous. In Game 1, with Chicago down 1, Hornacek got called for a touch foul that put MJ on the line and helped tie the game which eventually set up his game-winner. In the flu game, before making the 3 pointer, MJ was at the line shooting free throws because of another very questionable call. He shot 12 free-throws that game. Also, it's funny how you forgot to mention game 6 in 98 when he pushed Russell to get his shot off. He shot 15 free throws in that game.

prove how he wasn't getting many calls. jordan and the team's lack of success was due to detroit's defense and jordan's lack of a support from his teammates, nothing to do with the lack of calls. detroit was the arguably the best defensive team at the time and employed their jordan rules which was effective. with you being a detroit native, i feel no need to explain. btw ask steve kerr about jordan not getting any calls lol


You talk about the Jordan rules, so to prove my point, go read the Book by Sam Smith. I'll sum it up for you. The Pistons took clips of Jordan getting touch calls and sent them into the league office which resulted in less foul calls being called against Detroit. Thus Michael wasn't able to do as much as against Detroit and the Pistons beat the bulls three straight years.

you lost me on that one. we talking about hakeem or jabar?


Kareem. I was trying to explain that Kareem didn't use the skyhook all the time but also his athleticism. This worked against most centers but not against the athletic Hakeem and Ralph Sampson. As a result, LA lost to Houston in 5 games, I believe, in the 1986 playoffs. This is why he'd struggle today against the athletic big men.

Mchale repetoire on the offensive end didn't only consist of backing down defenders. you even said yourself that mchale is versatile


True, McHale is versatile but that's only helpful in the low post, not 15 feet out. I don't think he could back down Shaq or get past Shaq, so his versatility wouldn't be a very big factor.

first off, unlikely Walton would be guarding malone since walton is a center and malone is a pf... and if walton's weed smoking ass played in the same era, he most likely be a much bigger then 6'11 235 frame he played with back in the 70's/80's... if walton could check malone's perimeter game, it would make things easier for walton in post. malone can't pull that fadeaway junk since walton's reach would block that so walton would be waiting for malone to muscle his way to the bucket. malone's a strong man, but he's no shaq, he couldn't make walton his biatch on a consistent basis


You're the one who said Walton could guard Malone. Don't say what could have been, look at Walton as his "6'11 235lb" frame. See you're thinking of Malone's game by looking at the past few years. 1996-98 was when Malone was at his best. That's why he didn't fade-away all the time like he does now. And Walton couldn't stop his fade-away J, which was just as deadly as MJ's during the years I listed. About strenght, I'd say Shaq is bigger than Malone, but Malone is stronger. Shaq weighs more than Karl, but Karl has less than 3% body fat, which means most of his body is pure muscle. I think people forget (or don't know) just how good of a player Karl Malone was. You have to be a pretty special player to win the MVP award over Michael Jordan. You have to be very good to beat the tandem of Hakeem and Charles Barkely by yourself. Same goes for single-handedly going through the twin towers of San Antonio. Last, but not least, going through Shaq and Elden Campbell. And Malone did all this by having guys like Greg Ostertag, Greg Foster, and Antoine Carr to help him. I'd say he could easily destroy Bill Walton.
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Postby Bourbon on Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:05 pm

I think people forget (or don't know) just how good of a player Karl Malone was. You have to be a pretty special player to win the MVP award over Michael Jordan.


Or you can be an undeserving, overrated charity case. There's no way Malone should've won the MVP in 1997, and I will not debate this.
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Postby Jackal on Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:19 pm

Robby wrote:About strenght, I'd say Shaq is bigger than Malone, but Malone is stronger.


:shock: You've got to be kidding me on that one, Malone might be strong and all, but stronger then Shaq, hard to believe. :shock:
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Postby air gordon on Fri Oct 10, 2003 7:03 pm

Yeah, those two shots were clean but the plays before them were ridiculous. In Game 1, with Chicago down 1, Hornacek got called for a touch foul that put MJ on the line and helped tie the game which eventually set up his game-winner. In the flu game, before making the 3 pointer, MJ was at the line shooting free throws because of another very questionable call. He shot 12 free-throws that game. Also, it's funny how you forgot to mention game 6 in 98 when he pushed Russell to get his shot off. He shot 15 free throws in that game.

as i said before, every superstar gets their fair share of calls. i'm sure a lot of times malone went to the line, those calls could have easily gone the other way.

You talk about the Jordan rules, so to prove my point, go read the Book by Sam Smith. I'll sum it up for you. The Pistons took clips of Jordan getting touch calls and sent them into the league office which resulted in less foul calls being called against Detroit. Thus Michael wasn't able to do as much as against Detroit and the Pistons beat the bulls three straight years.

point taken, but don't most teams do this anyway (especially in the playoffs). if you want to attribute to the zebras not blowing the whistle for MJ as the main factor in MJ losing to the Pistons, no problem. i have no problem disagreeing. IMO, jordan's lack of success was due to detroit's excellent defense, probably the best team defense he faced his entire career (also joe dumars guarded him best jordan would admit).

Kareem. I was trying to explain that Kareem didn't use the skyhook all the time but also his athleticism. This worked against most centers but not against the athletic Hakeem and Ralph Sampson. As a result, LA lost to Houston in 5 games, I believe, in the 1986 playoffs. This is why he'd struggle today against the athletic big men.

k its debateable but i don't feel like disagreeing or sound like i'm selectively replying to your comments

True, McHale is versatile but that's only helpful in the low post, not 15 feet out. I don't think he could back down Shaq or get past Shaq, so his versatility wouldn't be a very big factor.

mchale could hit the 15 foot jumper to keep shaq honest and also mchale was a master of getting great angles to get off his shot and getting to the free throw line

You're the one who said Walton could guard Malone.

actually you were the one who was implying malone would be an utter mismatch for walton:
Just try to think of how many problems a skinny guy like Kevin McHale would have trying to guard a 340 pound Shaq? Or maybe Bill Walton trying his hand at defending Malone? Even with double teams, those two guys would have their way

so i took the position in defending him.

I think people forget (or don't know) just how good of a player Karl Malone was. You have to be a pretty special player to win the MVP award over Michael Jordan

i agree with bourbon's assessment

You have to be very good to beat the tandem of Hakeem and Charles Barkely by yourself.

please, you're being such a homer there. first off, hakeem and barkley were clearly way past their prime (then stockalone) and if can remember it was stockton hitting some big shots and houston choking away the lead in that game 7 where stock hit the 3, not your superman, malone

Last, but not least, going through Shaq and Elden Campbell

that lakers team was a gutless team pre-phil jackson. had a lot of talent but if wasn't the jazz that was going to beat them, it was going to be the blazers & spurs (who enjoyed sweeping them also).

I'd say he could easily destroy Bill Walton.

i could see walton giving malone problems and vice versa. fair enough? walton's no slouch, it seems you're underrating walton's defensive abilities.

another thing about malone's 'greatness' and him being superbuff: neither has gotten him rings as we speak. he had some memorable performances on the NBA's biggest stage, the NBA finals (39 pts, 9rebs game 5 '98 finals... 37 pts in game 3 '97 finals to name a few) but let's not forget the he's had some games where he choked in the finals also: the missed free throws in '97 finals game 1 setting MJ's game winner (no push required)... same year, game 2, shot 6 for 20... the flu game where malone settled for jumped shots for most of the game and also took some bad shots in 4th qtr and missed some more free throws...game 4 '98 finals, unable to get key baskets for his team down the stretch in a thrilling 86-82 bulls win.... losing the ball to jordan in the winding seconds in game 6 '98 finals... it wouldn't be far fetched to say that malone choked away more games as he did win for the utah jazz in the nba finals games he played in.

at least barkley was giving gutsy performances: had fluid drained from a bruised right elbow and took anti-inflammatory medicine just before the start of a game) 24pt, 19 rebs... dropped a playoff triple-double (32 points, 12 rebounds and 10 assists) in his teams losses in the nba finals
Jump.
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Postby Robby on Sat Oct 11, 2003 4:56 am

Bourbon wrote:
I think people forget (or don't know) just how good of a player Karl Malone was. You have to be a pretty special player to win the MVP award over Michael Jordan.


Or you can be an undeserving, overrated charity case. There's no way Malone should've won the MVP in 1997, and I will not debate this.


Or maybe most people were (are still are) too busy throwing rose petals at Michael Jordan's feet to acknowledge that Malone had just as good of a year, if not better. Malone won the Regualr Season Award, not the Finals won so let's compare both player's regular season stats (you can ignore this if you want Bourbon since you don't want to debate)

Jordan Malone
Points 29.6 27.4
minutes 37.9 36.6
FG att. 1892 1571
FG made 920 864
FG % .486 .550
FT % .833 .755
Rebounds 5.90 9.90
Assists 4.3 4.5
Steals 1.71 1.38
Blocks .54 .59

So Jordan took 322 more shots than Malone but made only 56 more and scored only 2.2 ppg more than Malone. The field goal percentage comparsion is obviously in Malone's favor while MJ has the free-throw percentage. Malone (a forward) averaged more assists than MJ (a guard) and more rebounds. By looking at these stats, it seems that both players had a great year and either could have gotten the MVP award with both players deserving the award. True the Bulls won 5 more games than Utah, but the Jazz had a much better second half of the season of the season. Malone was also more valuable to his team than MJ since the second highest point total for the Bulls was Pippen with 20+ppg while the second highest on Utah was Hornacek with 14+ ppg. I'd say Malone was pretty deserving of the award. If anyone wants me to further prove my point, click on this link I found:

http://web.archive.org/web/199704161746 ... e_mvp.html

Here's a few excerpts:

"Karl definitely fits my criteria for MVP, not just as a player having a great year, but one having a great impact on his team."
-- Denver Post columnist Mike Monroe in a Deseret News (Salt Lake City) copyrighted story, Apr. 5, 1997.


"Can Karl Malone finally win an MVP award? Through Sunday (Mar. 30) he was averaging 27.8 points (on 54.8% shooting), 10.4 rebounds and 4.5 assists while leading Utah to the top record in the Western Conference. While Malone, 33, is not a better player than Michael Jordan, he may well be more indispensable to his team."
-- Sports Illustrated, Apr. 7, 1997


"Utah's Karl Malone is the Most Valuable Player this season. End of subject."
-- sports columnist Eddie Sefko, Houston Chronicle, Apr. 6, 1997


"At age 33, the man who invented the position of modern power forward is having his finest season, and you could make a case that he has actually been more dominant than Jordan himself ... Malone for MVP."
-- Dave D'Allesandro, writing in The Newark Star-Ledger, Apr. 6, 1997.


"Michael has kept the Bulls there ... But I think Karl deserves it."
-- Houston's Charles Barkley, Houston Chronicle, Apr. 6, 1997


See Bourbon, for people who actually watched the Jazz play through the 96-97 season, they know how good and dominant Malone was. I hope you go to the link I posted to see what I'm talking about.
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Postby Robby on Sat Oct 11, 2003 5:03 am

Psycho Jackal wrote:
Robby wrote:About strenght, I'd say Shaq is bigger than Malone, but Malone is stronger.


:shock: You've got to be kidding me on that one, Malone might be strong and all, but stronger then Shaq, hard to believe. :shock:


How does one define strength? I define it in this case as having more upper body strength. Shaq looks bigger than Malone, but that doesn't mean he's stronger. If you don't believe me, just look at both player's biceps. You'll that Shaq has a lttle flab on his arms where as Malone doesn't have much. Which is why Malone doesn't have to flex for one to see his muscles while Shaq has to do so. Here's an image to show what I'm talking about.

Image

Now Shaq is bigger and more massive but in terms of oure brute strength, I'd give the edge to Malone. Whoever in here lifts weights regularly should know what I'm trying to say.
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Postby Robby on Sat Oct 11, 2003 5:35 am

as i said before, every superstar gets their fair share of calls. i'm sure a lot of times malone went to the line, those calls could have easily gone the other way.


I agree, every superstar gets his fair share of calls but MJ was at a different level. Many times if oppponents just touched Michael. a foul would be called. However, for bigger guys like Malone and Shaq, they sometimes have to get hit pretty hard to get a foul call. This is why Shaq attacked Brad Miller because he gets pounded down low consistently with no fouls being called. Malone was the same way a few years ago when he played in the low post.

point taken, but don't most teams do this anyway (especially in the playoffs). if you want to attribute to the zebras not blowing the whistle for MJ as the main factor in MJ losing to the Pistons, no problem. i have no problem disagreeing. IMO, jordan's lack of success was due to detroit's excellent defense, probably the best team defense he faced his entire career (also joe dumars guarded him best jordan would admit).


Without a doubt Detroit had a great defensive team but the refs helped them out quite a bit by not calling touch fouls.

k its debateable but i don't feel like disagreeing or sound like i'm selectively replying to your comments


:lol: That was good. Yeah, that is pretty debatable subject because I haven't seen Kareem play very much in his early years but in his Laker days, he routinely used his height and athleticism to score. He didn't use the skyhook as much as most people think he did.

mchale could hit the 15 foot jumper to keep shaq honest and also mchale was a master of getting great angles to get off his shot and getting to the free throw line


Right, he could take jumpers but then he would limit his game quite a bit. He could get angles around players but I don't think he could get around Shaq because of Shaq's size.

actually you were the one who was implying malone would be an utter mismatch for walton:


Yeah, it was an example I used to which you responded that Walton could do a good job against Malone. After I responded to your comment, you said Walton wouldn't guard Malone since he was a center.

so i took the position in defending him.


I'm not sure I understood that. Could you please elaborate?

i agree with bourbon's assessment


Ok, but do read my response to Bourbon's "assessment."

please, you're being such a homer there. first off, hakeem and barkley were clearly way past their prime (then stockalone) and if can remember it was stockton hitting some big shots and houston choking away the lead in that game 7 where stock hit the 3, not your superman, malone


Isn't Malone about the same age as Hakeem and Charles so why should that be a factor? I think Andrew and I had a discussion as to when was Hakeem's last great year, and we agreed that it was 96-97. Charles wasn't exactly that bad either, he averaged about 18+ ppg and 13+ rpg game that year. There was no game 7 in that series, the Jazz won in six. Do try to get your facts straight. Yeah, Stockton hit big shots but he wasn't in the low post going up aginst Hakeem, Charles, and Kevin Willis. It was Malone who battled those guys in the low post while Stockton schooled guys like Matt Maloney and Sedale Threatt.

that lakers team was a gutless team pre-phil jackson. had a lot of talent but if wasn't the jazz that was going to beat them, it was going to be the blazers & spurs (who enjoyed sweeping them also).


Alright, please try to get your facts straight before posting false information. The Jazz swept LA in 1998 with Shaq and Campbell, along with Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Kobe Bryant, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher. Portland never swept LA, in fact they lost in the first round to LA in 97 and 98. The Spurs did sweep LA in 99, but that was an LA team without Campbell, Van Exel, and Eddie Jones.

i could see walton giving malone problems and vice versa. fair enough? walton's no slouch, it seems you're underrating walton's defensive abilities.


I know how good Walton was defensivley, but he would have no chance going up against Malone in his prime.

another thing about malone's 'greatness' and him being superbuff: neither has gotten him rings as we speak. he had some memorable performances on the NBA's biggest stage, the NBA finals (39 pts, 9rebs game 5 '98 finals... 37 pts in game 3 '97 finals to name a few) but let's not forget the he's had some games where he choked in the finals also: the missed free throws in '97 finals game 1 setting MJ's game winner (no push required)... same year, game 2, shot 6 for 20... the flu game where malone settled for jumped shots for most of the game and also took some bad shots in 4th qtr and missed some more free throws...game 4 '98 finals, unable to get key baskets for his team down the stretch in a thrilling 86-82 bulls win.... losing the ball to jordan in the winding seconds in game 6 '98 finals... it wouldn't be far fetched to say that malone choked away more games as he did win for the utah jazz in the nba finals games he played in.


Yeah, I completly agree with that. Malone did not play like an MVP in the Finals, if he would have, then Utah would have won both times, especially in 98. But without Malone, Utah would have never made it to the Finals.

at least barkley was giving gutsy performances: had fluid drained from a bruised right elbow and took anti-inflammatory medicine just before the start of a game) 24pt, 19 rebs... dropped a playoff triple-double (32 points, 12 rebounds and 10 assists) in his teams losses in the nba finals


Are you kidding me? Malone played the much of the 97 Conf. Finals and the entire NBA Finals with a floor burn across his right hand which made him have almost no feel of the ball. This is why he missed so many free-throws and jumpers in the Finals. The gutsy Barkely you speak of missed more games in one season due to injury than Malone did in his entire career. Not only was Malone in great shape, he always played hurt, unlike Sir Charles. Also, Charles played in the Finals when he was younger, unlike Malone who played in the Finals in his mid 30's.
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Postby Jackal on Sat Oct 11, 2003 5:36 am

IMHO just because you have biceps, doesnt mean you are strong. I define strength as who ever can get the position they feel like it against whoever they feel like. Shaq can bump away anyone in the NBA, there isnt a person STRONG enough to stop Shaq, the league knows it, even the players know it.
Malone however cannot move anyone he feels like it. Put Wallace on Malone, Malone will never be able to bump away Wallace...he's not strong enough for that imho. Shaq is undoubtedly the stronger of the two. Just because Malone seems to be fitter then Shaq doesnt mean he has more strength.
I think I have alot of supporters when I say, Shaq is the strongest man in the NBA today, and undoubtedly stronger then Malone. Maybe all time. I dont know if Wilt was strong or not.
I find it VERY difficult to believe that Malone is stronger then Shaq. :?
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