A Conversation about Carter and alittle more....

[Brave Sir Rubin]

me and Shane just had an MSN convo that covers the topic of Carter being "The most overrated sport star ever" and other popular NBA topics such as Kobe, MJ, the Lackers, etc...we agreed to post it as a thread....i suggest ya'll to read it...and any comments or opinions (which are not of an unpolite nature) would be very welcome....

i took the liberaty to make our names bold...so that the convo would be more readable....

MsgPlus rocks!

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
the reason he gave for vc was weak...and then he talks about antion walker haveing the worst shooting percentage in the nba and how he shoots fts worse than shaq....
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
who's more overrated? the guy shooting 46% at 20 ppg or the guy shooting 38% at 25ppg?
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
hmm....
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
well...it's not only based on those two fields
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
well, VC's stats for the 42 games he played were 20ppg on 46% shooting, 38% 3pt, 78 ft, 6 rpg,1.2 spg, .9 bpg, 1.7tpg
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
walker is more of a team leader......while the raps still survived (more or less) without vc
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
in only 34 mpg
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
well, Lenny Wilkins sure knows how to instill that killer instinct in his players....
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
and VC has shown in the past that he needs someone to ride his ass to be a leader to be a leader
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
once he gets the hang of it, he'll be fine. He's been working out hardcore in the offseason, strengthening his knee and what not
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
oh, and 4apg
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
well...he's not overrated
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
people just expect too much off him
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
especially injured....
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
pierce averages 5.3 point's more and .6 more steals (the main things he's known for)...he get's three more boards a game, but he shoots 41% and 30%, plus he plays 5 more mpg
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
shit....me internet explorer just closed...and the nlsc doesn't want to load
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
yet carter's overrated....
Why is 77 better than 69? says:

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~nbalive/ph ... php?t=6800
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
carter got too much publicity...that's all....
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
but that's not his fault
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
he's a humble guy
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
he should have never pulled off all of those stunts in the Slam dunk competititon...and when he didn't show up to the following onces (because of injury) people thought he had a big ego...
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
yeah
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
that and after sydney....
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
ya
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
I want him to play like he did in sydney
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
like a leader?
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
yeah
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
well...injjuries can stop anybody...even the "next MJ"
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
yeah
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
VC's gonna be the first and only VC
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
exactly
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
people should stop conparing players to MJ
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
he's gonna come back from his more than solid end of the season and play almost 40mpg and get 30ppg
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
and see them as indeviduals
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
Yeah...Kobe's gonna be better than MJ and eclipse him in every way possible....and I can almost garuntee you that all the media will say 'we were right! he turned into the next mj!'
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
ya...i agree
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
fucking press
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:MJ was lucky enough not to suffer any very seriuos injuries (besides that one that kept his unactive an entire season...but that still didn't stop his carrier)
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
nope
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
while vince, with his bad luck....got injured........
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
yeah, no kidding
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
Part of the problem was the fact that he was dualing with Kobe for the best shooting guard title
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
and the press is blaming vince for not playing to his full potential....howw can a player play to full potential while injured?
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
then his whole thing with TMac, and Tmac pans out like no other
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
well....all of these "Best SG" competitions....if they actually exist b/w palyers...are always exadurated by the press............this is not a show...it's sport
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
yeah, exactly
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
or the whole MJ greatest ever...I don't know if ya saw that last one they did on the nlsc, the one that I got flamed and flamed and flamed for
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
I said that TMac and/or Kobe will eclipse MJ's accomplishments in the next 5 years
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
i didn't catch that one
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
Kobe's already got more rings than MJ did at that age, and Kobe still has at like 15 years in the league if he stays healthy
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
they pointed out that Kobe could never average 30 ppg for a season, and neither could tmac...I said they could
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
and guess what? they did
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
well...rings depand on the team...Mj took the bulls to the championship the 1st 3 year swith little supporting cast
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
lol
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
yeah, but he did have Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
Kobe had Shaq and Horace Grant
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
both were satill young and undeveloped
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
pippen played a greater part in the bulls b/w 95-97...
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
98
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
not 97
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
then he had Shaq and Horry
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
yes...but the key word here...is "Shaq"
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
then he had Shaq and Samaki
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
so?
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
the bulls had no "conpletely dominating player"
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
MJ and Shaq got all the calls, they're equal
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
besides MJ...
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
they had no guaranteed 2nd scorer
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
who could push off bryon russell for a game winning shot....
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
scottie pippen and horace grant...
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
look at it this way....Shaq and the lakercs can win while Kobe's injured
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
Kobe and the lackers are more likely to loose when shaq's injured
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
exactly...
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
Shaq has more influence in the lackers than kobe
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
he's more important
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
look at it this way...MJ and the bulls could win without Pippen...
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
Pippen and the bulls are more likely to lose when MJ's injured...
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
i knoow.....but we're not comparing MJ and Shaq here...we're comparing MJ and Kobe
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
I'm not saying Kobe's the key guy, I'm saying that Kobe's the second option and putting up MJ like numbers
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
albeit it with Shaq, BUT, MJ was JUST as dominating and Pippen's best year was WITHOUT Mj
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
he averaged 22ppg
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
the games kobe plays without shaq are the real proof of his talent...those are the games he single handandly needs to lead a team
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
exactly
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
and he generally does it
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
he scores 40 points and dishes out 8 assists, but his teammates fuck up and they lose
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
yes...but the rings he got are not mostly because of him...you could say kobe did 40% shaq did 40% and the rest of the lakers did 20%./..while in chicago....MJ did 70% pippen did 10% and the rest did 20% (not direct stats ofcourse)
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
think about this, though...Pippen had an All-ARound game just like Kobe....and Kobe's in the same role that Pip is in except he has the biggest and most talented center in the league going against inferior players
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
Kobe's playing against much better players than Shaq is...period
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
Kobe's guarded by Gary Payton and Shawn Marion and Bruce Bowen and Doug Christie and...and and and....
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
Shaq's guarded by Mutumbo twice a year and Duncan four to to eleven times a eyar
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
mJ and pippen were also guarded by good players
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
I never said they weren't
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
and that;s also why shaq's the best player in the league.....he's the only one that can't be guarded......
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
yeah, exactly
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
but that's because of lack of talent at the center position
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
Kobe has a TON of talent at his position
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
and he's better than all of them
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
he rips them all apart for 30ppg
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
well...yes
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
MJ was the best guard out of all of them....
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
but you always have contenders like aI, T-mac, etc.........
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
always, yeah
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
and Kobe might always have an off season like carter due to injury...or sometijng else
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
which is what I'm saying Kobe has tons of competition at his position and he beast htem out...Shaq has no competition, so the Lakers win because of a combination of Kobe's insane skill and Shaq's unstopabilitiy
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
if the lackers get another all-star (payton)...then Kobe's numbers will go even lower...
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
welll...yes
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
there's no way the Lakers can get an all-star
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
sign and trade...
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
plus....everybody wants to play for the almighty lackers
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
no they don't...
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
well....payton an allstar pg does
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
all the rumors circulating around him going to the lackers
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
I doubt he will
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
i know...but it is a posibility
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
should i post this conversation on the forum......it covers so many popular topics...(VS, Kobe, Lackers, MJ...)
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
*shrug* go ahead, if ya want
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
I'll pry get flamed like usual, get called an arrogant know it all who tells everyone what to do
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
that I think I'm the smartest person ever
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
do you truly care?......the opinion of the n00bz isn't that important you know...
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
i'll just post it under your thread
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
lol, those aren't from n00bz
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
well....do i post it....or at least the carter part?
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
?
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
eh, post whatever ya want, include this part too, for laughts
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
laughs
Brave Sir Rubin (avnebe zvezda...ti ne odin...) says:
alrighty then....i'll just post it all
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
lol, sweet

[Jackal]

Good conversation, Im happy that Shane does accept that Kobe is a good player, most ppl if they dont like the lakers...hate Kobe...Respect to u Shane, Sorry fer whatever I said b4 man. No hard feelings.

[Wall St. Peon]

Psycho, thanks, but you got my PM awhile ago (I'm assuming), so you know it's not a problem.

[Jackal]

Yeah, I got it, but since I never got the chance to reply ( truely decided NOT to reply ), I just read the post, and changed my outlook of you.

[Andrew]

I don't think Kobe is close to eclipsing MJ yet. As much as I dislike Shaq, he's the most valuable player on the Lakers. The team is not built around Kobe, it's built around Shaq. As good as Kobe is, he's more easily replaced than the Diesel.

I feel that the assertion of Kobe being better than MJ for having more rings at a younger age is faulty logic - if that is a standard for comparing players, then Jason Caffey, who holds two rings at the age of 30 (and already had them by the time he was 24) has surpassed Karl Malone, who has no rings and is approaching 40.

Naturally, that's a rather silly example. Kobe resides in the upper echelon of the league, just as Michael Jordan did for many years, so the suggestion is not quite the same as saying Jason Caffey being better than Karl Malone. But if we go by the idea that more rings at a younger age means surpassing greatness, then Caffey is better than the Mailman.

Not to take anything away from Kobe, because he is indeed a great player. But he hasn't won anything without the big guy, and I think that must come against him, unfair as it may sound. Consider some of the greats who were not centres, who won titles. Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Oscar Robertson, Bob Cousy, Isiah Thomas, John Havlicek.

Of those seven players, only Michael Jordan never played with an all-star centre. None of those Bulls teams featured a dominant centre, yet they faced the physical Knicks and Pistons teams, the Heat with a healthy Zo, Mount Mutombo and even the Magic featuring Shaq. Count Cleveland and Brad Daugherty as an honourable mention. They were fortunate enough to never face a dominant centre in the finals, but if you're going to take away credit for that, then you must do the same for the 2000-2002 Lakers.

Kobe has always had Shaq. Sure, Kobe is important to the Lakers. He's a reason they've win three titles in the past four seasons. But his job is made a lot easier by that 7'1" 355 (that's the latest I've read, I could be wrong) pound perennial All-Star who happens to be his teammate, the guy who really holds the fate of the Lakers in his hands.

MJ is third in total career points. His 30.12 ppg career average is slightly higher than Chamberlain's 30.07. He's scored the most points in playoff history, in fewer appearances than the number two guy, one Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. His 33.4 ppg average in the playoffs is second to no one. He has over 6000 rebounds and over 5000 assists. He was the first player to record 200+ steals and 100+ blocks in a season, something he did twice.

I could go on and on, but to cut a long story short, there's a lot of things that MJ has accomplished that Kobe has not. In my opinion (that is trying to remain humble ) Kobe cannot eclipse Michael Jordan until he reaches similar marks and sets a new standard of excellence, just as the other greats have done. He's still got a fair way to go before he achieves what MJ achieved. And he's going to have to win without Shaq, or at least prove himself the most valuable player on the Lakers' roster.

On Vince:

Vince has to reach the level of Vince again. He hasn't really had an opportunity to do that, because he's spent a lot of time recovering from injuries the past two seasons. Some might say he's done, that he's basically at the level of a second fiddle now, a sidekick kind of player. I say he needs to play a full season again before we can make such an assessment.

With the right motivation and a clean bill of health, Vince should pick up where he left off before the injuries. It would be nice if his motivation could come from within. All the great players then and now have had that desire to win: MJ, Bird, Magic, Russell, all of them. If Vince can harness such a competitive drive, with his talent he should easily be one of the top players in the league.

We haven't seen the last of Vince Carter.

[Wall St. Peon]

and now a convo between me and our friendly webmaster about the MJ stuff he's said in this post.

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
lol, you misunderstood me talking about the rings

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
I'll post it, but what I meant by the rings thing was he already has three rings being the second option - and a very impressive option - on three championship teams

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
he's 24

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
once he gets his own team and he keeps improving at the the rate he's improving, he'll be the perenial scoring champion and have more rings, maybe not six rings, but he'll have at least one more

Andrew says:
Fair enough. But he's not even been scoring champ once yet

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
wasn't he this year?

Andrew says:
T-Mac was

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
or did tmac barely beat him out?

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
well, he had 30 a game and will only be better next year...that's a pretty decent stat

Andrew says:
It's not terrible. Like I said, I'm not trying to take anything away from Kobe. I just think he's got a bit to go before he eclipses MJ, among other great players in history

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
yeah

Andrew says:
Kobe was the playoff leader in PPG by 0.4, T-Mac led the regular season 32.1 ppg to Kobe's 30.0

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
eh, that's fine

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
you honestly think Kobe won't beat out MJ in the end? Kobe probably has 15 more years in the league. He hasn't even hit his prime yet!

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
that's my whole point...Kobe has three rings, and he has about 4 years, imo, before he hits his prime

Andrew says:
I don't think it's guaranteed that Kobe will beat out MJ. I don't think anything in sports is guaranteed. He's got an excellent shot though, I'll concede that. But without Shaq he could very well be a Dominique - plenty of scoring, highlights, but no significant victories.

Andrew says:
ie. championships

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
Shaq was basically a non-factor this season...

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
he came on towards teh end of the year, but he was so out of shape when he played and injured a great deal of the time

Andrew says:
Exactly. And the Lakers didn't get past the second round.

Andrew says:
A healthy Shaq is so important to the Lakers' success.

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
yeah, but Kobe led that team to the playoffs, and that team was built around Shaq, NOT Kobe...

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
Kobe carried the team on his back until Shaq came back, and even then it still seemed like it was Kobe's team

Andrew says:
But he carried them to a 3-9 record until Shaq came back

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
the team wasn't built around him and was playing horribly

Andrew says:
Compare that to say MJ who kept the Bulls above .500 when Pippen missed 35 games in 1997/98

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
if you have a dominant center like Shaq you surround him by three point shooters, especially if you're running the triangle

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
those three point shooters were horrible this year...horry, fox, fisher

Andrew says:
Yeah

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
just like for the Lakers when Shaq's playing...if the role players aren't making their threes, they're fucked

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
except they only have Kobe as a sure fire scorer as opposed to Kobe and
Shaq

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
while shaq's important, if the team had been built around the guard position and not teh center position it would look different

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
Kobe and MJ are diff. situations, but Kobe has the best potential and the biggest opportunity to surpass MJ's accomplishments

Andrew says:
That I will concede. But I still say potential is still potential until it is realised.

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
30ppg is a pretty good indication of what is to come, no?

Andrew says:
Of course. But if Shaq returns next season like the Shaq of old, Kobe's average is going to down for at least a year.

Andrew says:
Not down to 10 ppg obviously, but you know what I mean

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
I don't think it will

Andrew says:
So if Shaq comes back in his old form and ups his scoring average, Kobe will continue to increase his?

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
yes

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
but shaq won't go back to his old form, he'll go to like 28ppg

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
lol, not 28, I meant to push 26

Andrew says:
If he averages 26, he'll decrease from this past season.

Andrew says:
If he gets back to his old form, he can't do worse than his 27.5 ppg this year.

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
yes, he can

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
remember, he didn't play all 82 games

Andrew says:
True. But he never has.

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
true

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
but even playing 70 games his average would decrease

Andrew says:
He averaged 29.7 ppg in 1999/2000, playing in 79 games (40 mpg)

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
yeah, but Kobe will shoot more now and Shaq will conced more shots because of Kobe proving his scoring ability even more

Andrew says:
I'll believe Shaq conceding shot attempts and trimming his ego when I see it.

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
just like I'll believe that Shaq is getting back into his 30ppg shape and trimming his waistline...

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
lol

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
I think the Lakers will be Kobe's team by the end of the year

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
think about it....the free agent they'll pry get will be Juwan Howard, a power forward who scores in the post and from midrange...who does that
help, Kobe or Shaq?

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
it helps Kobe more than Shaq because it gives him another guy to dish to and gives him another guy to draw the defense away from him....no one's going to leave Shaq for Juwan Howard, but people will leave Kobe to double Juwan Howard

Andrew says:
True. But nothing is guaranteed. For all we know, Shaq and Kobe might both go down for the season, and then it becomes Mark Madsen's team.

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
If Juwan scores about 15ppg (if he signs), that's way more than any other Laker pf in past years

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
that's points in the paint away from Shaq...his assists might go up, but I doubt it because the assists will go to the man passing the ball into the post, which sure as hell won't be shaq

Andrew says:
True

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
now, adding another post player - especially a solid one like Howard - will free up shooters on the outside even more because of the double teams (and howard's good enough to draw double teams), and Kobe's % has improved yearly

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
which makes him a three point threat...

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
and because of that, they can't play off him or he'll drain the shot over the top easily, but if you go to play up on him he'll drive past you and you have to be prepared to double or block the lane...which is difficult because of his quickness and strength and favoritism of the refs

Andrew says:
But, to be pedantic, Kobe _could_ have a bad shooting year. He might not play up to last year's standards. More likely, things will go as you've said, but there's still a chance they won't.

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
you're so negative

Andrew says:
I'm a Bulls fan. It happens.

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
your idol's untoucability is in trouble

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
I'm gona post our convo in the pavel post

Andrew says:
Fair enough

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
hehe

Andrew says:
But do you really think Kobe is that close to MJ just yet?

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
yes, I actually do

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
three-four years and he'll be in his prime....I think he could average 40 a game

[Andrew]

For the sake of adding a conclusion:

Andrew says:
Well...I doubt that, but I guess we'll find out soon enough.

Andrew says:
Like I said, the possibility of Shaq and Kobe going down and Mark Madsen becoming the go to guy...is a rather ugly situation, actually.

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
lol, it'd be Samaki

Andrew says:
Isn't Samaki on his way out?

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
lol, I hope so, he sucks

Andrew says:
Anyway, in conclusion to the MJ question (he's my favourite player, but I do get tired of talking about him sometimes), I still think Kobe has a way to go with various accomplishments. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree there.

[Swoosh]

I think u r missing a very big point here and that is, shaq healthy or not, he ALWAYS gets double- or triple-teamed so that always leaves one or two guys open, even if its not kobe he will benefit from it, more space to dribble and go to the rim and stuff. The team isn't half as good without shaq, look at their record at the beginning of the season, but though im not a kobe and shaq-fan, i HAVE to admit that kobe played great but had no supporting cast whatso-ever, so its logical his team didnt win, put him in another team with a decent supporting cast and that team is bound to win,even i have to admit that , he has idd immense talent and might be closest(next to tmac) to surpass MJ, but all the arguments andrew gave were fair enough in my opinion and i think he is right, but u are also right kobe aint in his prime yet, and he could average 40ppg idd, but u are underestimating the shaq-factor quite a lot i think, but its just my humble opinion

[LeBron James]

kobe bryant is next adonal foyle lol.he is not next mj

[Rens]

Why is 77 better than 69? says:
yeah, but he did have Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant
Why is 77 better than 69? says:
Kobe had Shaq and Horace Grant

So a team looking to win a title should sign Horace Grant!

I'm sorry, but why did this get a new thread? It's interesting to read, but it's on the ESPN/Carter overrated-topic.

[LeBron James]

you are right dan.its weird topic

[Brave Sir Rubin]

but it's not only on the Carter topic......by now, after Shane's and Andrew's convo....this thread is more about the Kobe/MJ comparasion...