New mock draft available Now!!

[thesport]

Well guys, I posted a new mock draft for the NBA draft coming up June 26...check it out here...at my website. Then hurry over to the forum to discuss your opinions of the picks as well as submitting your own draft if you care to.

[LoveItLive2004]

There's a better one in espn.com, sorry.

[GloveGuy]

I'm surprised you only have one high schooler on the list. I'd think that you'd atleast put one out of Kendrick Perkins, Charlies Villenueva, Ndui Ebi, or maybe Travis Outlaw.

[benji]

I think the first six picks are somewhat set in stone at this point...LeBron, Darko, Carmelo, Bosh, Kaman and Ford...

I mean...Toronto is saying it's taking Bosh, "the best player available" that high...Miami needs a big man worse than they need a point...and Clippers have to replace Andre Miller...

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

Boston needs a point guard.

I do not believe 13 international players will be selected ahead of every High School player outside of LeBron James.

I do not see T.J. Ford falling to the ninth selection.
or Dwayne Wade at 13.

T.J. Ford is a solid point guard, the best in the draft, this puts him in the top 5 or 6 at the lowest.

Dwayne Wade is like Gary Payton in my opinion. I believe he goes top 10 or higher.

[thesport]

Believe me when I say that I've done a lot of research about this draft. And the majority of mock drafts that I've looked at have James as the ONLY highschooler that will go in the first round. Outlaw and Ebi are early to late second rounders, incredibly.

Face it guys, foreign players are todays bag in the NBA. Everyone has seen what they can do and NBA GM's want them on their ballclubs. 15 foreign first round picks is incredibly high, this is true....but the NBA is evolving into an international association. The fundamental abilities of european players are so far superior in most cases to our own home-grown Americans that they're taking over...especially with the new rules in the league that make shooters all that much more valuable.

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

Believe me when I say that I've done a lot of research about this draft

You have read many articles or looked at all the mock drafts?

Well I have watched what has happened as well, these days international players are still just shooters and not much else, so when a team needs a point guard, rebounding forward or dream of power center, they do not look to Europe. Tony Parker is the only point guard that I can think of from Europe (though I like the hype surrounding the kid from South America) and Dirk Nowitzki and Pau Gasol are the only European players that has shown depths of talent, including banging and rebounding.

Be careful guy, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Jermaine O'Neal, Allen Iverson, Chris Webber, Ben Wallace, Jason Kidd are the best players and they are Americian learned players, pretty fundamental as well.

Name an international player more fundamental than Larry Bird or John Stockton? Americans play the best basketball still, do not bite of more than you can chew.

Tim Duncan learned basketball at Wake Forest (American university)
and he seems pretty fundamental.

Emanuel Ginobili, Peja Stojakovic, Toni Kukoc and the like are smooth and good players, but they still are not Kobe, TMac, Pierce or Allen Iverson.

If you think those Europeans know more about basketball, or somehow so far superior in most cases to American players, show me how.


Explain how they are somehow smarter in the teachings of basketball in Europe? Fundamentals also include rebounding and defense, not just shooting.

This statement is bold and unbelievable.

The fundamental abilities of european players are so far superior in most cases to our own home-grown Americans that they're taking over

[benji]

Tim Duncan learned basketball at Wake Forest (American university)
and he seems pretty fundamental.

He's also American, not foreign. Unless I misunderstood you (very likely)

[GloveGuy]

I think that Ndubi Ebi should be in the first round. If he bulks up than he'd be incredible. He's tall but has a very good jumpshot and also very good post moves. I've heard that he's done very well in defending Lebron James.

[Colin]

Tim Duncan learned basketball at Wake Forest (American university)
and he seems pretty fundamental.

He's also American, not foreign. Unless I misunderstood you (very likely)

He grew up in the U.S. Virgin Islands, so I think he still counts as American.

[thesport]

Believe me when I say that I've done a lot of research about this draft

You have read many articles or looked at all the mock drafts?

Well I have watched what has happened as well, these days international players are still just shooters and not much else, so when a team needs a point guard, rebounding forward or dream of power center, they do not look to Europe. Tony Parker is the only point guard that I can think of from Europe (though I like the hype surrounding the kid from South America) and Dirk Nowitzki and Pau Gasol are the only European players that has shown depths of talent, including banging and rebounding.

Be careful guy, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Jermaine O'Neal, Allen Iverson, Chris Webber, Ben Wallace, Jason Kidd are the best players and they are Americian learned players, pretty fundamental as well.

Name an international player more fundamental than Larry Bird or John Stockton? Americans play the best basketball still, do not bite of more than you can chew.

Tim Duncan learned basketball at Wake Forest (American university)
and he seems pretty fundamental.

Emanuel Ginobili, Peja Stojakovic, Toni Kukoc and the like are smooth and good players, but they still are not Kobe, TMac, Pierce or Allen Iverson.

If you think those Europeans know more about basketball, or somehow so far superior in most cases to American players, show me how.


Explain how they are somehow smarter in the teachings of basketball in Europe? Fundamentals also include rebounding and defense, not just shooting.

This statement is bold and unbelievable.

The fundamental abilities of european players are so far superior in most cases to our own home-grown Americans that they're taking over

I agree with you on the majority of your post. But with the new rules of the NBA...zone defense, defensive three seconds, etc, it makes the shooter much more valuable to the game.

American born players seem to be much more athletic than these European players, ala Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter (before injury), AI, etc., but they are not as sound shooting the basketball except for maybe Bryant, McGrady, Duncan and a few others.

Anyway...I don't know if I like the way the NBA is headed with all of these foreign players. It just feels to "international" for me, that's why it's hard for me to come up with a mock draft, because half of these guys I've never heard of before and I learn about them through articles?!?!? I don't think that you can truly say that you know something about somebody (basketball wise) until you've truly seen them play the game. So this year's draft is truly mostly all speculation and not much else unfortunately.

You do make good points paul_pierce_the_truth.

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

Thanks guy,

I hope I didn't sound insulting, I was just a bit taken by your statements, I understood what you were trying to say, but was making things perfectly clear.

Kobe Bryant is not my favorite player, and his form is not fundamental in movement, but the man can hit from two or three feet behind the 3 point strip at anytime, on anyone and without a slight bit of fear. The last part of the statement also includes draining the shot, something that Peja and some others have not done ever in the late rounds of the most meaningful games of the NBA playoffs. Toni Kukoc in 1994 was a serious and sick player, I remember him just dropping bombs on Shaq and Orlando, but I remember for the reason that the Bulls were serious even without Michael Jordan, not because he's from Croatia, he didn't do this because he was from Europe, he did it because he was [is] Tony Kukoc.

I believe Dirk Nowitzki is a great player, but he is not fundamental, his shot is very Larry Birdesqe if you ask me. Peja has a nice stroke, but I really think that is some sort white guy/black guy illusion, the white players are fundamental and the black players are athletic, it's crap. Reggie Miller in his prime could out shoot everyone and with a perfect stroke.

I am willing to say that the great white hope is still deep in the minds of many fans, I have no doubt that the dudes down in the projects in NYC are not talking about Darko Milicic, they don't give a shit about him, they gotta see it to believe it, they prolly don't think Milicic is better than Carmelo Anthony, nor do they want him to be, just like the white dudes in North Chicago want Darko to be everything they aren't. You see the Media is mainly white, so Darko is really just story right now. Do you remember Sasha Danilovic? Well he was supposed to be this and that and he wasn't shit, so just watch it. Carmelo Anthony is raw, but serious, he reminds me of Paul Pierce really, Dwayne Wade is a married father and he is like Gary Payton to me, Michael Sweetney is also serious, maybe not Shaq Daddy, but he's a man, not a some white Euroballer.

Without knowing my race, be careful calling me racist.

I think if you think over what I have said and look at how many American ballplayers there are and how many of them are the top players, then look at how many are European, not white or black, but American or European, you will see that the most fundamental and athletic players are Americans.

[Rens]

Didn't people say that American players tend to be less "fundamental" because they dunk all the time, instead of working on their shot? Look at LeBron.
You say Darko is all hype, because he's white/European. How about that African American kid called LeBron?
Your comments don't make you a racist, but they do show your preference for the American instead of the Euro. You're not impressed from what you've heard of Darko, but then the (lesser) U.S. prospects are all this and that. It's just your preference ofcourse, but you could just explain it by that instead of jumping the gun and getting mad at people explaining it as racism.

Also, Wade is not the PG Payton is. Wade will probably be a better version of Voshon Lenard.

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

Didn't people say that American players tend to be less "fundamental" because they dunk all the time, instead of working on their shot? Look at LeBron.
You say Darko is all hype, because he's white/European. How about that African American kid called LeBron?
Your comments don't make you a racist, but they do show your preference for the American instead of the Euro. You're not impressed from what you've heard of Darko, but then the (lesser) U.S. prospects are all this and that. It's just your preference ofcourse, but you could just explain it by that instead of jumping the gun and getting mad at people explaining it as racism.

Also, Wade is not the PG Payton is. Wade will probably be a better version of Voshon Lenard.

I am not mad about anything.
I didn't say Darko was all hype, I said he is just a story that is going around the offices of the media, until he proves something he's a rumor.
I have on the other hand watched LeBron James play many times, as well as Carmelo Anthony and Dwayne Wade.

Dwayne Wade will play the point in my opinion, Wade reminds me of Gary Payton, is that okay? I didn't say he was or is the PG Payton was at OSU or is now, it's called a comparison, if your comparison is Voshon Lenard, make sense of it.

I compare him to Payton due to size, ball handing and so forth, Wade can out jump and out create both Payton and Lenard when going to the basket.

Your comment or anyone's comment that Americans dunk the ball and do not work on their jumpshot, is borderline racism. LeBron James has a decent jumpshot, I've never seen Darko Milicic's, it's just upon rumor.
If Joe Dumars selects Milicic, Denver selects Anthony and Cleveland selects LeBron James, the big impact will not be felt in Detroit, even if they won 50 games, I don't know it, but somehow I just can't see this guy Milicic making a huge difference. (I do not mean wins, I mean being a scoring threat, an all-around player right away.)

I would rather see Dwane Wade on the Celtics than Darko Milicic. Boston needs a ballhandler to control the game, they do not need some smooth shooting small forward, unless you think he is the next coming of Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett. Garnett and Duncan are what Milicic thinks he is or will be, that I gotta see.

[Rens]

I compared Wade to Lenard because they are both undersized SGs, who are good shooters, solid perimeter defenders. Lenard is more of a shooter though. Wade isn't a PG, so I think the comparison with Payton is a bit off.

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

A bit off, i am so sick of you pal.

He did handle the ball in crunch time of many games, which i watched.
He is not a shooting guard on the nba level, he had Travis Diener in college to free him.

Magic Johnson played forward at Michigan State, suppose he never made much of a point guard?

[Wall St. Peon]

Dwayne Wade doesn't have the ball handling or the ability to set up other players that a true NBA point guard needs. He's a much better and slightly bigger version of Troy Bell (Boston College). Wade's an undersized shooting guard who will have to play point guard...the question is whether or not he'll make the switch or if he'll just be another guy like Joe Forte...

Anyway, as for the rest of it, Europeans are more fundamental. They're taught how to play the game and begin playing professionally at a young age in a team environment. Most Americans start playing with their dad in the driveway (well, you get the idea) and don't begin to play organized basketball until they're 8-10 years old, and that's against other 8-10 year olds, not men 10 years older, as in Europe.

The main knock on Europeans (and other foreign players) seems to be their athletic ability - which transfers into defensive and rebounding problems. If you just aren't quick enough to defend, you can't...and you can't help it. American professionals - mostly African-Americans - are quicker and more athletic than the majority of foreigners. The focuses in America are totally different: how how you can jump, how fast you can run, how sick your cross over is, how many threes you can make, etc....stuff for the high light reel. Europeans learn how to take shots off screens, set screens, run motion offenses, make good passes (name a European who's a bad passer...I can name a bunch that are great passers), and so on; they learn the fundamentals. But it's boring...look at Tim Duncan. He's the epitomy of fundamental basketball, and he's boring. People don't like the fact he got the MVP because he isn't exciting...but that's a whole other topic.

Another reason, in my opinion, as to why Europeans are becoming more popular in the U.S. is because they're extremely coachable and aren't going to demand the max after a rookie contract because they *might* average 20 points per game in two years. They're not going to play for pennies, but they seem to play for what they're worth and not demand too much from their team.

I just forgot what I was going to say next, but in a nutshell, coaches and teams are sick of players like Darius Miles who have the talent and athleticism to be great, but they don't have the fundamental skills or knowledge of basketball to be a regular contributor....my two cents, if anyone cares.

[Dirtdog1- David]

I agree with some of the things you are saying, except i don't think 8-10 year olds in Europe are playing against Men 10 years older than they are; at least i hope not. If so i hope they are not winning!

I coach 8-10 year old's, and that wouldn't be much of a game.



David

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

American professionals - mostly African-Americans - are quicker and more athletic than the majority of foreigners

Now this is complete racism.

Another reason, in my opinion, as to why Europeans are becoming more popular in the U.S. is because they're extremely coachable and aren't going to demand the max after a rookie contract because they *might* average 20 points per game in two years. They're not going to play for pennies, but they seem to play for what they're worth and not demand too much from their team.

This is mindless bullshit.

Anyway, as for the rest of it, Europeans are more fundamental. They're taught how to play the game and begin playing professionally at a young age in a team environment. Most Americans start playing with their dad in the driveway (well, you get the idea) and don't begin to play organized basketball until they're 8-10 years old, and that's against other 8-10 year olds, not men 10 years older, as in Europe.

More absolute bullshit.

(name a European who's a bad passer...I can name a bunch that are great passers),

Bagaric, Dalibor
Medvedenko, Stanislav
Potapenko, Vitaly
Rebraca, Zeljk
Trybanski, Cezary
Tskitishvili, Nikoloz

You are saying this:

White European players play fundamental basketball, black american players jump high, dunk, shoot mindless three pointers and are completely ignorant to the rules and skills that make a good player.

I'm watching the NBA Finals right now, the most imporant Basketball series in the world and I don't even see a white European on the floor, Ginobili is the only white fundamental player in the series. Tony Parker is black, but his skills must be 'cause he played for Bicycle Racing in France.

These Europeans are few and far between, look at this page and tell me what the majority of these players have in common?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players?league=nba

I brought this whole subject up about racism, and you furthered the racism, the sterotyping and the ignorance, nice job. You just exell my point further.

[BIG GREEN]

paul_pierce_the_truth I have to now warn you that your behaviour on the board is crossing the line. The way you are replying to people is being regarded as trying to insite a flamewar. I suggest to take a gander at the rules of the board before you continue posting.

[Wall St. Peon]

Now this is complete racism.

How's it racism? The majority of NBA players are African-American...it's a fact. African-Americans are stereotyped as being more athletic than white guys, but when it comes to professional athletes it's usually true. It's not racism...ask Yohance, I'm not racist...

This is mindless bullshit.

Elaborate. It's my opinion, explain why it's mindless bullshit. Until you feel like explaining your opinion, I'm going to ignore you...

More absolute bullshit.

How? Many Europeans begin to play professionally before they turn 18, many before they turn 16. Americans can't play collegiate ball without a high school diploma which means they won't be able to play basketball at a high level until they're 18...

I don't know where you've been, but the majority of the talented high schoolers rely on their talent and talent alone, unless they have good coaching, to play well. Just because they post good stats mean they are fundamentally sound or know how to play the game. Darius Miles, for example...

Bagaric, Dalibor
Medvedenko, Stanislav
Potapenko, Vitaly
Rebraca, Zeljk
Trybanski, Cezary
Tskitishvili, Nikoloz

Those guys never play...Rebraca was hurt a lot last season, Potapenko's average, Trybanski's average, Tskitishvili's average, Medvedenko's decent, Bagaric's played like two minutes in his career....they aren't bad passer's by any means...they're just as good, if not better, than other players of their size who aren't superstars...

White European players play fundamental basketball, black american players jump high, dunk, shoot mindless three pointers and are completely ignorant to the rules and skills that make a good player.

No, I'm saying that Europeans grow up in an environment that is more focused around learning the game of basketball than getting to the NBA. The players are far more coachable because they want to learn and it's obvious when they come to the NBA...

You're generalizing everything I said and making blanket statements and putting words in my mouth. Don't do that. Take what I write literally because there can be misunderstandings and obvious hard feelings. I never said that 'black american players jump high, dunk, etc.' I said AMERICAN as in white, black, latino, and asian basketball players in the US. Who are the players who are being incredibly hyped? The athletic blacks who jump high, dunk a lot, and so on. Read their scouting reports, most of them call them 'raw' players...what does that mean? It usually means that they lack fundamentals...why is that? Because of the culture they are brought up in...

Also, this discussion is about the draft, and, while I didn't say it, I assumed by my statements about 'gms are looking to europe b/c of' or something along those lines gave the fact that I was talking about future players and not so much current...I gave some examples, but I don't think I'm the only one who thinks that the overall basketball skills of players are declining (not talent)....

I'm watching the NBA Finals right now, the most imporant Basketball series in the world and I don't even see a white European on the floor, Ginobili is the only white fundamental player in the series. Tony Parker is black, but his skills must be 'cause he played for Bicycle Racing in France.

For crying out loud...now you're being racist the other way and saying all white guys suck at basketball. I never said black guy's don't know fundamentals or can't learn them, I just said that Europeans teach them at a younger age. This isn't a race issue, it's a culture issue. HUGE difference.

Get over whatever color you are and just have a discussion without thinking that you're being discriminated against. I could care less if you're black, white, green, or purple...if you can have an intelligent discussion without calling me racist because of one similarity between players, then great. If not, don't bother talking about it....

[Wall St. Peon]

I agree with some of the things you are saying, except i don't think 8-10 year olds in Europe are playing against Men 10 years older than they are; at least i hope not. If so i hope they are not winning!

I coach 8-10 year old's, and that wouldn't be much of a game.

Dave, I was referring to the players who begin on the professional circuit by the age of 16, sometimes younger. Because they play professionally earlier, they also have to be prepared for the pros earlier which means they have to know how to play, otherwise they won't make the team.

I'm sure you can attest, being a coach, as to the attitude of your better players...they probably don't listen to you as much as the guy at the end of the bench, no? Even at age 10, if a player's better than his peers he usually takes the spotlight and begins bad habits....

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

paul_pierce_the_truth I have to now warn you that your behaviour on the board is crossing the line. The way you are replying to people is being regarded as trying to insite a flamewar. I suggest to take a gander at the rules of the board before you continue posting.

Sorry about this, but I used the word "bullshit" for lack of any other, I have seen many use the "F" word and others.

By the way, did read what is involved in this thread, this guy is saying the most sterotypical things, for which you have no response. I mention this because as a black man I figure you might at least have some opinion on this guy's racism.

Saying black players lack fundamental, while white players (the one's from Europe at least) are more fundamental than blacks.

This is bs Yohance, sorry if you do not approve of my statements, more sorry that you do approve of his.

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

32 Players of 435 NBA Players (15 per team)
7.36% (1.1 players per team)

Dalibor Bagaric
Primoz Brezec
Predrag Drobnjak
Pau Gasol
Gordon Giricek
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Marko Jaric
Andrei Kirilenko
Toni Kukoc
Raul Lopez
Stanislav Medvedenko
Bostjan Nachbar
Radoslav Nesterovic
Dirk Nowitzki
Mehmet Okur
Tony Parker
Vitaly Potapenko
Vladimir Radmanovic
Igor Rakocevic
Zeljko Rebraca
Efthimios Rentzias
Antoine Rigaudeau
Arvydas Sabonis
Predrag Savovic
Vladimir Stepania
Peja Stojakovic
Bruno Sundov
Cezary Trybanski
Jake Tsakalidis
Nikoloz Tskitishvili
Hedo Turkoglu
Jiri Welsch

Top Level Players: 7

Pau Gasol
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Andrei Kirilenko
Toni Kukoc
Dirk Nowitzki
Tony Parker
Peja Stojakovic


These players above are important to their teams, the rest do much else than play a roll or little for their teams, now most American players do little in the league like the weaker European list. I agree that the above seven players are good players, but what I do not agree with is these players are more fundamental than Americans.

I guess in the end I believe it's crap to say Europeans are more fundamental or learned than Americans, Not ALL AMERICANS go straight from High School, I believe you can learn basketball at Kansas, Duke, Syracuse, Norte Dame, Marquette, Illinois, Wisconsin, Texas and so forth.
I guess those European pro coaches as they are known as, know more about the American game of basketball than college coaches here, for sure you are saying at the High School level there is no coaching going on.

I just can't believe the whole argument, someone threating me to watch what I say, someone saying they will ignore me, I at least try to make it clear that putting someone in the same old cubbyhole is crazy.

I am saying also about the NBA Finals, that no European player except maybe Toni Kukoc, but only somewhat, has made a difference crowning the NBA Champion.

Until you see the playoffs taken over by some European player, or the league is more than seven outstanding players, their impact is very little.
I guess the league is still being dominated by athletic, non-fundamental, windmill dunking, no jumpshot "Afro-Americans." Who apparently begin to learn to play basketball in the NBA, because a person cannot pick up any skills before than, unless they play for some European pro team at the age of 16.

[Rens]

Shane, I suggest you leave it at this, obviously paul_pierce can't handle all the "mindless bullshit" and it's blurred his vision.

Oh and paul_pierce, do come back when you've learned how to argument and when you actually have the mental capacity to discuss a subject, ok?