Kobe or LBJ in 2007-2008 season?

[BIG GREEN]

I'm basically tired of most people feeding me what I deem to be bull everytime I ask them who's better today....kobe or lebron? They bring up what kobe has done throughout his career and I have to emphasise once again that i'm refering to this season...not career. Same goes when the topic is brought up with "anal-ysts" and their "opinions" about the subject.

I'll ask you guys cause I trust I can get answers that make sense from these forums(atleast from some members). If you do indeed think kobe is still superman of the league (as 'Barkley' puts it) and LBJ is superboy...tell me why please. If you could base your opinion on the intangibles like leadership, team inspiration, tangibles like clutch and ofcourse overall stats i'd appreciate it. Why these criteria? Cause in my feeble basketball IQ having brain....these things constitute the best player. It's some of the same criteria that people use when they argue that Jordan, oscar, wilt and Bill russel are the best depending on who you talk to.

I ofcourse think that Lebron is the best player in the league and has been for a couple years now and I think what he did with this scrub cavs team last season proves it. He loses the MVP award to no-show dirk of all people....this year he's not even in contention? Ridiculous! I need not even mention the impressive record breaking stats and that his team has starting winning again.

In closing, I think Lebron suffers from the backlash of being entirly too hyped..too soon. The general hardcore basketball fans are tired of hearing about Lebron this and that. Some even go so far as saying that he was over-hyped; don't fool yourself. If you think that LeBron hasn't lived up to the hype in any way...shape or form....I don't care much for your opinions past that.

[CMJ3]

I to think Lebron has surpassed Kobe, although the Lakers are winning again it took Kobe too long to start realising he had some half descent teammates he also has lack of faith in his teammates and demanding trades makes him have questionable leadership compared to Lebron who literally carried the Cavs by himself who are really a bunch of average joes (See the 5 games when Lebron was injured). The thing that made me think that Lebron had the edge started after his one man recking show of Detroit in last years Conference finals. The pressure was on him he was facing a superior team yet he came away with a series win and took over in more ways than one it was truly remarkable and i doubt its something Kobe could re-produce in the present day.

What would truly decide who was the better player was if both players traded situations and if one of them could lead their team to a championship they would rate as the better player in my books.

[J@3]

Better individual performer this season has been LeBron without any shadow of a doubt. Kobe however has tamed himself to the point where it's not uncommon for 4+ Lakers to score in double digits, how long's it been since that has been the case? So in one corner you have a guy who is basically carrying his whole team and having to do everything himself, then on the other side a guy who has spent most of his career trying to do that and has altered his game to make the most of the teammates he has... individually LeBron has been better, statistically LeBron has been better, mentally Kobe has been better and in a basketball sense I think he has been aswell. I guess the tie breaker for me will be the team records at the end of the season.

[hova-]

Lebron is playing better this season so far, thats for sure.
But its also okay that he is not in the MVP race so far since the Cavs are loosing, and thats one of the most important thing for earning the MVP honours, you must be on a winning team.
When it comes to stats I think you can clearly see that LeBron is matching or even beating Kobe in almost every category.
What I find amazing is the 3pt shooting percentage. Kobe is clearly better in shooting threes but his percentage at .34 is not really impressing I think. That leads to another problem. The mentality. Kobe is a shoot-first type of player. I think it explains his weak percentage since he is often forcing it. I dont think that is better for the team to win the game, maybe in a small amount of games, but not always.
I think it is the same this season but the other Lakers just developed into better players and thus into a better team so Kobe could lay it down a bit. But his mentality hasnt changed.
Lebron is a pass-first player I think that is for sure. He does nowhere near take as much difficult jumper as Kobe. When he recognizes a mismatch he will play a bit ego but I think thats just okay. He doesnt force it as often as Kobe.
Kobe seems to be more ambitious but often thats drivin him mad a bit I think.
Something I think is always underrated is freethrowshooting. In a time where superstars get to the line almost at will you should posses a stable freethrow technique. .85 - .70, Kobes clearly better here.
Something I alway was very amazed by Kobe is his body. You know, Lebron is a monster. His muscles are sick and he is still very quick and agile.
But on the other side Kobe (for me) has always been the player with the best stamina and also one of the quickest and most agile player. A bit like Dr. J.
He can play thousands of minutes and wont slow down.
Defensively I think Kobe is a bit better of an one-and-one defender although LeBron is getting better. I think Defense is a lot about experience and Kobe is in this league for 11 years now which is giving him the edge over Lebron.

Just breaking down what I think, maybe you dont agree.

I give Lebron a slight advantage statswise but Kobe is (due to his experience) the better player and should be more successfull this season since the Lakers are just running better this year.

[Tuomas]

LeBron is what, 22 years old? Yet he has accomplished more than MJ, Kobe or anyone in his age. He is the most complete package in the league now, the most versitale player. When you draw that comparison into Kobe, now in his prime, I put LeBron over Kobe. I just can't imagine what LeBron will be like 8 years from now

[Kbryant8]

LeBron is what, 22 years old? Yet he has accomplished more than MJ, Kobe or anyone in his age. He is the most complete package in the league now, the most versitale player. When you draw that comparison into Kobe, now in his prime, I put LeBron over Kobe. I just can't imagine what LeBron will be like 8 years from now

He is 23.

[BIG GREEN]

I'm happy you guys put your opinions in clear and concise posts....gotta love the nlsc.

Let me add that at this point I'd take kobe in the clutch over Lebron any day. However I don't know if the Laker's winning ways has more to do with kobe than it does with the great Phil Jackson and GM Buss. I think kobe tried to do everything in his power from talking trash to insulting his teammates like Bynum so he can get out. He finally got a winning team and like a spoilt brat...he's now happy.

I don't hate kobe though...he's probably my 3rd favourite player after wade...so I keep an open mind about him. There's no doubt about his drive and talent on the basketball court.

[BiGrEd819]

in my opinion kobe is better right now. lebron will get better. much better. in fact kobe was not even close to being as good as lebron when he was 22 or 23. however, given that he is only 29 and he is already a 12year veteran, with his sheer dominant ability to score at will he can still dominate the next 2 or maybe 3 years.

Lebron's close-to-tripple double stats are amazing. however there are simply things that stats do not show. you can not teach experience and thats is what kobe has over lebron. kobe has a much deeper understanding of the whole basketball game; he can adjust to any defense from any team in this league. Lebron shows sparks of this exact talent.

when jordan and pippen played along each other pippen was always skimmin numbers close to a tripple double. nevertheless, everyone knew jordan's dominant scoring ability was the engine of that bull's championship team

[benji]

Jordan's stats blew Pippen's away, even in Pippen's best seasons.

[Andrew]

LeBron is what, 22 years old? Yet he has accomplished more than MJ, Kobe or anyone in his age. He is the most complete package in the league now, the most versitale player. When you draw that comparison into Kobe, now in his prime, I put LeBron over Kobe. I just can't imagine what LeBron will be like 8 years from now

Not to take away from what LeBron has done thus far in his NBA career but he did come straight out of high school (which MJ didn't) and was basically The Man in Cleveland the moment they picked him (which Kobe wasn't at the same age). We'll never know if they might have had similar success had they been in similar situations at the same age. All the same, LeBron has had a lot of hype to live up since the moment he was drafted and established himself as an elite player.

I think the nail has been hit on the head already. LeBron is outperforming Kobe as an individual but Kobe deserves credit for deferring to his teammates and making sacrifices for the better of the team. Is that necessarily more impressive than a player who's carrying a team by himself because that's what's needed of him? Maybe, maybe not, but since the Cavs have a losing record I think it becomes a moot point. Unfair or not, the Cavs' record is held against him in the MVP race, just as the Celtics' record bodes well for KG even though he's on a team with two other star players.

[Tuomas]

Not to take away from what LeBron has done thus far in his NBA career but he did come straight out of high school (which MJ didn't) and was basically The Man in Cleveland the moment they picked him (which Kobe wasn't at the same age).

I did acknowledge that in a way, but I guess I didn't get my point that clear. LeBron was so much more developed than Kobe as a rookie out of high school. But this argument is about which one is a better player now, so I might as well get back on track.

I don't really buy the hype Kobe getting his teammates involved (which he does have), since he has had plenty of time to do so. I would have wanted for him to realize that earlier. Better late than ever I guess. LeBron has done it since day one of his career. And about being the number one player, he certainly has lived up to that hype, no letdowns. People still expect more from him although he is so young. He did get his team to the finals.

I also like both players, I have no bias in this one. It's just a matter of opinion trying to look into this objectively.

[Axel]

Lebron is a much better all around performer than Kobe. He fills up the entire stat sheet. Not just one column. Kobe is still more clutch, but I'd rather have a guy like Lebron who has proven to be an unselfish superstar who can get it done in on the boards, in the assist column, and on the scoreboard.

[BIG GREEN]

LeBron is what, 22 years old? Yet he has accomplished more than MJ, Kobe or anyone in his age. He is the most complete package in the league now, the most versitale player. When you draw that comparison into Kobe, now in his prime, I put LeBron over Kobe. I just can't imagine what LeBron will be like 8 years from now

Not to take away from what LeBron has done thus far in his NBA career but he did come straight out of high school (which MJ didn't) and was basically The Man in Cleveland the moment they picked him (which Kobe wasn't at the same age). We'll never know if they might have had similar success had they been in similar situations at the same age. All the same, LeBron has had a lot of hype to live up since the moment he was drafted and established himself as an elite player.

I think the nail has been hit on the head already. LeBron is outperforming Kobe as an individual but Kobe deserves credit for deferring to his teammates and making sacrifices for the better of the team. Is that necessarily more impressive than a player who's carrying a team by himself because that's what's needed of him? Maybe, maybe not, but since the Cavs have a losing record I think it becomes a moot point. Unfair or not, the Cavs' record is held against him in the MVP race, just as the Celtics' record bodes well for KG even though he's on a team with two other star players.

Kobe wasn't the man when he was drafted cause there was already a superstar on the team but also partly due to his selfish play style. He simply refused the passed the ball. It was well documented about his attitude towards others and his brazen style of play was evident all season. I think that alone made lebron a better player as a 18-19 years old rookie.

Also, I give credit to kobe for his team winning this season...but can you honestly say kobe defers and gets his teammates more involved than LeBron? There is no question that kobe has better teammates yet he couldn't make it out of the first round. I've never even heard Lebron insult his teammates in public. Doing it in the manner kobe did is definitly not the mark of a good verbal leader.

[Matthew]

Better teammates? Wow you're a bigger fanboy of Lebron then I thought. Last season Bynum was not producing. Radmonovic was a shadow. Smush Parker was the starting pg. Farmer was playing NBDL. Odom was inconsistent.

I'm not saying the Cavs have a great lineup, but last season they were great defensively and to think the Lakers even got to the playoffs last year is a mark on Kobes brilliance. Do you honestly think the Cavs would of gotten past Phoenix?

Additionally, if we're taking players past performances into account then I'll draw on the fact Kobe has been to the finals 4 times and won 3 times. Lebron is yet to get a single finals game victory.

[benji]

Additionally, if we're taking players past performances into account then I'll draw on the fact Kobe has been to the finals 4 times and won 3 times. Lebron is yet to get a single finals game victory.

Which isn't taking players past performances into account...

Because I could draw on the fact that Will Perdue has been four times and won four times.

[Matthew]

But to say "well kobe couldn't get his team out of the first round" is taking past performances into account.

Last season is a past performance?

[Drex]

Yup, but those other performances were with Shaq as the leader, so it wasn't Kobe's team yet. They're comparing their seasons as first options or their respective teams.

[Matthew]

Either Kobe/lebrons past is eligible in this discussion or its not. You can't pick and choose which is applicable just to make your argument better.

Hey Kobe is better then Michael Jordan because he was better in 2002 and 2003, and thats all I wish to discuss.

[The X]

if we forget the past then we would have to exclude Lebron's fortunate run to the Finals (they were lucky to get number 2 seed & then only had to get by Wiz without Gilbert & Butler, & a very average Nets team....both of these teams wouldn't have made top 8 in West....they did beat Pistons, but Pistons were cocky & far from at their best), let's look at it:

I'm not a Kobe fan at all as many can attest, & I prefer Lebron....all that being said, I still think Kobe is better this season than LBJ. I might own LBJ in my fantasy league, but that's for fantasy stat padding & not whose the better player. For me, Kobe is currently better as he is making his teammates better & winning ballgames. Kobe could easily average 38, 6 & 6 again, but if Lakers get homecourt advantage in 1st Round, which is looking likely at present, then that's a great accomplishment....whilst I like the Lakers' supporting cast more than the Cavs, I still don't think it's significantly better....of course I think Mike Brown pales in comparison to Jackson so the Lakers have the coaching edge, but I still can't take LBJ over Kobe in the 2007-08 season....

if you were talking who would I take if starting a team for the future then of course I would take LBJ, but the question is who is better now, & I think that is Kobe....IMHO he's more clutch, has more offensive ability, is a much better defensive player & shoots his FT's at a better clip....Lebron is bigger, stronger, better rebounder, probably better court vision & natural passer....but I dunno, to me it's in the ticker....Kobe has it....Lebron will get it, but he needs to be knocked down a few more times before I would put him on same level as Kobe....

all that being said, I'd still have Garnett No. 1 for MVP, Kobe No. 2, LBJ No. 3 & Nash No. 4....

[Drex]

Either Kobe/lebrons past is eligible in this discussion or its not. You can't pick and choose which is applicable just to make your argument better.

Hey Kobe is better then Michael Jordan because he was better in 2002 and 2003, and thats all I wish to discuss.

Not really, the point I was making is that it's more fair to compare them as first options, since Shaq is/was better than every Cav Bron has had in these couple years. But let's not go in these long ass argument, 'cause the thread's about them this season. Carry on guys.

[benji]

Kobe is currently better as he is making his teammates better

proof or ban.

Code: Select all

Kobe0708: 29.1 pts, 6.5 rebs, 5.4 asts, 2.3 stls
Bron0708: 29.2 pts, 7.3 rebs, 7.6 asts, 1.9 stls

Kobe0708: 48.1% eFG, 55.7% TS, 10.2 ToR, 8.9  RbR, 30.0 UsG, 24.0 PER
Bron0708: 50.5% eFG, 55.8% TS, 8.6  ToR, 10.4 RbR, 32.3 UsG, 29.8 PER

Kobe0708: Assisted on 44% of his baskets, 14% foul draw rate, 3.2 assists per bad pass, 0.8 block%
Bron0708: Assisted on 30% of his baskets, 17% foul draw rate, 4.1 assists per bad pass, 1.7 block%

EDIT: Wait,

Kobe could easily average 38, 6 & 6 again

When did he do that a first time?

[Matthew]

Ben, whats the % of Lebron having the ball and Kobe having the ball in their hands? That will impact production too.

@ Nash 4th in the mvp race.

Drex, you say Kobe had superior teammates when he had shaq. Well up since Shaq demanded a trade and this season Lebron has had better teammates, so the argument works both ways.

[benji]

Usage (UsG) rate is basically possessions per 40 minutes.

[Matthew]

Does it calculate off the ball screens, swinging the ball and help defense that don't result in blocked shots or turnovers?

[benji]

Why would it? What does "help defense" have to do with how many offensive possessions you used? If you have the ball, you can shoot, pass or turn it over to end the event of you having the ball.