high school 2 the pro's

[mp3]

i personally would like to see more players going to college, learning the game, learning some fundamentals. it is no surprise that coach's are looking to europe for young players that can run pass and shoot the ball instead of some 19 year old who make's a nice dunk every now and again. iam not saying that this type of player does not turn into a superstar ( ie, kobe , kG, ) but look at D-miles he's not doing to well and eddy curry's lucky if he plays 20mpg. what iam saying is teams are looking for complete players and not projects that may or may not pay off. Jermaine O'Neal took 5 years to be what he is today, four of which he played no more than 13.5mpg. people may disagree with me on this saying there is no better place to learn the game than the nba but would you really want to pay money to watch some kid make so many mistakes in hope that he might dunk from the free throw line?

www.hoopstuff.co.uk

[benji]

Eddy Curry is playing very well lately...looking like he might be the first player to prove to not be a non-bust from the 2001 HS Draft Class...

[scubilete]

Some of the High Schools are good. Even that Lebron, hopefully doesn't become a huge disappointment in the league like 1st overall Kwame Brown. However, I would agree to the fact that in order to jump is because of a fair reason, like Kemp (couldn't pass his test to get to College), that way you don't want to waste the talent, but it's much better to see those players competing first for NCAA tittles.

I mean, these triple crown guys (Magic, MJ, Big O), have won tittles in NCAA, NBA & Olympics. Those High schools are not getting to accomplish that, and to be part of that club should be a huge merit since the great ones are among those.

[magius]

give the hischoolers like kwame and chandler and curry a few years....

even notables like garnett, tmac, jermaine oneal, and kobe werent so hot their first three years

players drafted out of high school always seem to have tremendous upside and stockpiles of talent.... just takes time i think. To get a superstar in the league nowadays you either have to get the really talented guys quick out of high school or grab someone from europe..... the college guys are just mediocore to good.

[scubilete]

However you are asking to give them time. Something that wouldn't happen with College guys. Vince Carter didn't need time, Stackhouse nor Iverson. Those super HS like Kobe, T-Mac & Garnett were the ones who needed time. That makes me think that the college guys might be mediocre to good but they get used to the league sooner.

As for Kwame, why is a disappointment?, well cause he was chosen number 1, meaning he was considered the best of the whole draft and hasn't shown that. If you get a first pick, you better don't come with that excuse of give me some time please, when the guy is going over his second year and that's the most you have seen of him. At least Ming started showing improvement sooner than expected, that's what you expect of a first overall pick.

[magius]

college guys dont neccesarily come into the league prepared (see jay williams). The high schoolers need a few years but by the time they come into their own they're basically the same age as the college players coming in.....

and most college players need a few years themselves (see antawn jamison, marbury, iverson to a degree, baron davis). only the real special college players came into the league dominating (like duncan and shaq) after development in college, and i dont think those guys will be so often anymore now that teams are starting to draft them out of high schooler more and more, and developing them theirselves (rather than them being developed in college)..... and probably in the long term this will boost how high their talent can reach. I wonder if we will ever see a high school player dominate right from the get go though That would be cool.

i think kwame is gonna be a real good player some day. A change of screnery would do his confidence good though, i think right now its a lot about his confidence... he's only a teenager you know

[bballer22]

i think its more a potential thing. now day scouts know what they are getting, they know that the player will not contribute in the first few yeasr. but.... the team wants that player first. if tyson and curry and kweme would have gone to collage they still would have been in the nba, but some other team would have them.

i read an article on espn that said that there should be less teams so good players would be on same teams and that will make the game more compatitive.

and i think thats the reason y some teams are just so crap. beacuse they are going for the future. they sacrificing experiance over future.

its all about first come first serve.

[Eugene]

This is an issue that has been bothering me for quite some time now. Certainly, there are several players who've come straight out of high school and have grown into premier players. In fact, 3 of the top 10 players have come out of high school. And that certainly makes a strong case for players making the jump after their high school careers.

Before I go on, let me say right now, I believe all players should have at least 1 to 2 years of college experience.

While 3 of the top 10 players in the league have come out of high school, that fact is misleading. Consider this: 3 of the top 10 have not gone through college, then 7 of the top 10 then have gone through college.

Also, with the exception of Jermaine O'neal, Amare Stoudamire, and the aforementioned 3 (KG, Kobe, T-Mac), none of the other high schoolers are good enough to be in the league. A case could be made for Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry, but then again, they are playing for the Chicago Bulls. Darius Miles can jump out of the gym, but that's about all he can do. Has anybody even heard anything about Qyntel Woods? I haven't either, which is why I had to look him up on NBA.com. Since I looked up his stats, it reads -- 2.3 ppg, 6 mpg in 34 games.

In fact, other than O'neal, Stoudamire, KG, Kobe, T-Mac, none of these guys would have made a team in the 80's to early 90's. That says a lot about the condition of the NBA, but that's another story altogether.

Now, are they bad players? Right now, yes. In a couple of years? Maybe. In some cases, probably. But then the question becomes, why draft them now? Why not let them learn the game in college? Gain more experience and maturity?

Because no one wants to make the mistake of passing up a Kobe Bryant or a Tracy McGrady. Every high schooler drafted has been solely based on their potential to be good. They had not actually done anything significant -- at least not against anyone of consequence. They had not proved themselves of being successful in college, where the training regimen and game schedule become more demanding. Simply, they have not proved ready to contribute or even participate in the NBA.

The scouting report on Lebron James? NBA-ready body. His mind? We hear that he's a 3.5 GPA student. But does that necessarily translate into being able to cope with the pressures of a 82-game season?

You simply cannot expect an 18-year old to deal with the mental stresses of playing in the league. Most of them don't go to winning teams anyway, because they go so early in the draft. They aren't ready to make an impact for a losing team. So, the losses compound the pressure. The coach begins to lose faith. The rookie then loses confidence. Kobe played with the Lakers, a team that had Eddie Jones, Van Exel, and Shaq already on the roster. He was able to flourish in a positive environment. And he worked like a madman during the off season, which translated into his current success. KG had great size. He got Marbury the next season. The T'Wolves at the time also had Googs and a number of impact veterans. T-Mac only just blew up 3 or 4 seasons ago. Jermain O'neal was buried in Portland before being traded to Indy, where he has only begun to bloom last season. For a high schooler to go to a losing franchise, like Washington, like Chicago, and now Cleveland (presumably) is simply devastating. They don't have the tools initially to cope with the NBA (tools they would have gotten through sufficient college experience) and they don't get a chance to learn them.

Also, to note, only 2 of the last 8 high schoolers are guards. Size is also a big factor. But, not having played in college where the game demands you to develop a real post up game (not merely a drop-step) the players are mobile but completely lost in the post (and this totally baffles me -- as a big man, why wouldn't have an arsenal of post moves? I mean, even me, a guard when I play, have a number of moves including turnaround jumpers, fadeaways, drop steps, pump fake step through, up and under. Why can't big men actually work on post moves? Why aren't all the big men in the league making a commitment to going to Pete Newell's big man camp? This frustrates me. I'm going to make a post about this later, be warned).

These players most likely will be good in the future. But they could be better now, having been through college. They could've been better equipped to play in the league, both physically and mentally.

And regardless of what the perception may be, Jay Williams, Boozer, Dunleavy, Dixon, are all better players for having played through college and having won NCAA Championships. And there's never declaring too late. Never. The worst thing is dropping to a lower draft position, where they'll end up playing for a better team anyway.

All the best,

Eugene

[Andrew]

But explain that to some NBA GMs. Potential is such a valued commodity these days. The possibility that a player could become a great player in the NBA is considered as being a strength. On potential, I remember the talk about Derrick Coleman (who did go to college of course), how he could/should have established himself as a star in his early years in the league, because he had so much potential - potential that was wasted through laziness.

It's no secret that most of us don't learn from our mistakes, so history is doomed to repeat itself. The problem is those 3 players you mentioned that are examples of potential being fulfilled. It gives GMs (unfounded? foolish?) hope that they will snare the next Kobe, the next T-Mac, the next KG...maybe even the next Moses Malone.

It could be argued that since they are starting their careers at such an early stage they have more years to adapt to the NBA and develop their game - but surely they could be adequately prepared in college. I agree with Eugene, at least 1 year spent in the college system might avoid cases such as Kwame Brown and Qyntel Woods.

But I believe the problem still lies with the GMs rather than the players. After all, it is the team that drafts these players and offers them millions of dollars, most of which is guaranteed - who's going to turn that down? As long as high schoolers are allowed to enter the draft, the only way they will not be selected as lottery picks will be if teams wake up and realise not every high schooler will be an incredible young superstar - some are going to be raw and not ready for pro sports.

So it's up to the team scouts and executives to realise that potential is not always positive - I would suggest raw players have nearly as much potential to fail as they do to succeed. The chances of a player succeeding would have to be much higher than 50/50 if they could develop and ready themselves first.

[bballer22]

andrew, i agree with most u said, but... am still trying to repeat my point that.. if u were 18 and had a chooise of playing collage, working part time, study, etc or... quick 25 million for the next 5-6 years, be in th eNBA. the chioce is easy. this is the choise the players make. scouts on the other hand look at that and say. if i dont get him someone els will, he has potential if were to to to college he would have came in 1-2 years, some other team will get him, he will get his few years to get usedto the game and be good.

but if i do get him those years he coul have spend in collage would be th eyears rookies get to ajust to the nba, so by the time he unoffcialy becomes a rookie he will already be an experianced player.

again its first come first serve, they want them, look at the size they got, tyson, curry, brown, admere and big men.

i think that all players who ever played in the nba have the potential of beign stars. its how much efford those who have them put into them.

there is only so much as a player can learn by himself, the rest must be tought. its very hard to give a lot of attention to one rookie when the season is long and hard, and during summer the trainers want to be with their families insdead of players. i think it has to do with how much u want it.

true, they get payed so much that u could say who cares how much i score, with my money i can buy the socre board and put my own stats.

im sure u see what im trying to say.

[Rens]

I agree with Eugene, at least 1 year spent in the college system might avoid cases such as Kwame Brown and Qyntel Woods.

Woods did play college ball, junior college yeah but that's only because he was a bad student from what I've heard. Can't blame someone for not being able to learn well.

[mp3]

Can't blame someone for not being able to learn well.

i agree with this, some players, like kemp, have no choice. but not all of them are that dumb are they? trouble is that these young guy's are going bad team, not doing much and them moving on, while the bad team stays a bad team. the spurs took tim duncan and turned the team around in a short time because he was already a fundamentally sound player. also, i hate to say it(really i do) but the nba attendance is down, i heard one commentator say about a cavs game that people dont want to come to the games because the team plays bad basketball and the cavs do. all young players jacking up bad shoots and people dont want to see that. people dont want to pay to see that!

[TheBob]

Can't blame someone for not being able to learn well.

Unless he's got a learning disability then he should be able to get into college. It's only a matter of effort really. Obviously some people do learn better than others but almost everyone can get good marks (not great but good) if they work hard at school.

[scubilete]

and most college players need a few years themselves (see antawn jamison, marbury, iverson to a degree, baron davis).

Correction, Marbury & Iverson exploded the same year they got from college. Plus, you are still waiting for a high schooler to get the rookie of the year.

college guys dont neccesarily come into the league prepared (see jay williams).

Well, there's a lack of talent in college cause everyone wants to jump from High school.

the team wants that player first. And i think thats the reason y some teams are just so crap. beacuse they are going for the future. they sacrificing experiance over future.

I would agree, but the decision is made by the players first to get to the draft, the teams can't do much until the decision comes.

if u were 18 and had a chooise of playing collage, working part time, study, etc or... quick 25 million for the next 5-6 years, be in th eNBA.

You have to remember, there's a maximum $$$$ allowed for a rookie and plus for the years to sign them as well.

Unless he's got a learning disability then he should be able to get into college. It's only a matter of effort really.

The Problem is not that they have learning disability or they are stupid, the problem is the requirement to pass the SAT to get into the Univ., not everyone gets there. If you are not good in math, or Grammar, it's not your fault, you might fail the test and are not allowed to get into the Univ. Usually community college is easier but nobody is watching you there.

[Andrew]

I didn't actually take the possibility of being denied entry to college into account, that's a good point. But some like LeBron James would be able to get into college for his academic as well as athletic ability.

Woods did play college ball, junior college yeah but that's only because he was a bad student from what I've heard. Can't blame someone for not being able to learn well.

My mistake.

bballer22, I understand what you are saying about potential and also $$$, I admitted that it would influence a lot of high school players to bypass college (and if someone told me I had the potential to be great and could get paid millions of dollars to learn the game as I play in the NBA, I'd be tempted too), but as far as potential goes, potential in itself is not necessarily a good thing, as plays can be potentially disappointing as well. This is what scouts fail to realise. Taking risks has worked out in some cases - KG, Kobe, T-Mac etc - but other times, we are left to consider what teams could (should?) have done with their draft picks.

[Boyk]

i dont really see the problem seeings how the top 3 best players in the NBA are from high school.
kobe,kg,t-mac

[TheBob]

i dont really see the problem seeings how the top 3 best players in the NBA are from high school.
kobe,kg,t-mac

What about all the others who didnt make it big though?

[BIG GREEN]

From what i've noticed in the nba over the years...most 'high school to nba players' eventually become stars if not superstars ala kobe,t-mac and garnett. Learning fundimentals is all nice and dandy..but at the end of the day...the all mighty dollar and getting rings rules the board.

[bballer22]

scubilete......
u right that its the players decision, thats what i meant, but when they do make that decision scouts look and say the no he will not explode in his first few years but by the looks of it by the tume he becomes rokkie age he'll be good. and im sure they consulted many people about the jump, becasue they dont jump unless they know that they will be picked, i mean if the player realizes he will not be picke then his chances to get into collage are so much greater.

but what i dont understand is y if a player does not get drafted he cannot go to collage. ok if he played in the nba out of high skol for 2 years and got waive then he has nba training which make it a bit unfair, but if he desited to go into the draft but did not get sighed he should still have a chance to go to collage.

and yes i know that a player can go to collage even after nba but he cannot play basketball (like shaq did)

[TheBob]

I guess you're not going to college...

[mp3]

cheap shot

www.hoopstuff.co.uk

[Eugene]

They can still go to college even after they've declared but failed to get drafted. However, they are not allowed to play in the NCAA.

And playing on a college team, where there's little consideration for a big contract, but rather a great emphasis on the Title, players get an opportunity to learn to play on a team, as a teammate, and listen to their coaches. Those that don't... well, they don't make the NBA. And that's the way it should be. There's no reason to look to a potentially good player if he is uncoachable or is a poor teammate.

I also believe that the high school player themselves should make the commitment to go to school. The NBA will be there for them even after a year or two. Granted, of course, that it is financially viable for them to go to college -- Kwame Brown and Amare Stoudemire had to deal with this. Even so, college should always be taken into serious consideration. There's so much in college beyond the education and the degree. It is the bridge, if you will, between a child's life and a man's life. You're away from home, and likewise come into a number of responsibilities, but not so far removed from your parents (or any support system you may have) that there's no one to turn to.

NBA is a hard life, make no mistake. College goes a long way to making it a little easier to deal with.

All the best,

Eugene

[benji]

even notables like garnett...werent so hot their first three years

Garnett was.

From what i've noticed in the nba over the years...most 'high school to nba players' eventually become stars if not superstars ala kobe,t-mac and garnett.

No...most fail...only 4 High Skewlers have succeded to the point of All-Star status...others such as Smith, Young, Collins, Cooke, etc. have all missed the league...while Kwame and Diop continue to look bad...

However, I would agree to the fact that in order to jump is because of a fair reason, like Kemp (couldn't pass his test to get to College)

Actually...Kemp did go to college...he signed with Kentucky but they had a scandal so he backed out to a Junior College but never played...

Plus, you are still waiting for a high schooler to get the rookie of the year.

Wilt Chamberlain.

[Andrew]

Didn't Wilt Chamberlain attend Kansas?

[bballer22]

yes he did, but not for long, bak inthose days u had to wait untill ur class is graduated b4 u can go into nba, so he played with kansas and then for globe troters for a while. he was however the first player to win rookie of the year and mvp in the same seaon, late on i think it was welis reed. but thats ot the point.

kemp wanted to go to collage but becasue he was "falsly" accused of use of drugs, the charges droped but the skol figured it will look bad if it had a student like that, so they calceled his scolership, he then got a chanse to go in nba.

bak to high skol to nba....
if u look at it from a diff point of view, some cant go to collage simply becasue they cannot afford to live for the next year or so, i may be wrong but from what i read james's mom traded shoes so she can buy food, i dont know how much of it is true, but on the other hand same thing was with John Starks, he lived his way thorugh collage but selling groseries. it a matter of will...
but if u look at the bottom line it a choise....
who want to go to collage when u can make millions.