Michael Jordan: In His Prime

[Zoom]

Just had to put that in ^^

This is somehting I'm hoping MJ fans can help to answer. When would you consider him to have been in his prime?

I understand that before the first retirement, he was pretty 'reckless in a good way', attacking, extremely athletic type player. After it, in his second run with the Bulls, he was stronger, more of a player using smarts and shooting to get by but it didn't mean he didn't dunk... he just played a different style. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Anyways, what I wanted to know was when was MJ in his prime? If you say he was in his prime during the first three peat up to when he quit for baseball... could you make a case for him being in his prime in his second-coming?

EDIT: I guess I could sort of say that MJ may have been at his 'athletic' prime playing before he first retired but probably came back at a 'mental' peak/prime... if there's such thing. So in light of me saying this, a second question is... could we say that an athletic peak and mental peak in sports exists?

[Matt]

Hard to tell, but overall the Bulls team as a unit was better the 2nd trip round.

1. 61, 67, 57
2. 72, 69, 62

That no doubt has a lot to do with MJ. He had a renewed hunger to reach the top again.

[kinokong]

i think it was during his second time around due to being slower but smarter.... smart basketball always wins over reckless basketball

[Zoom]

smart basketball always wins over reckless basketball

Could John Stockton beat Michael Jordan?

[cyanide]

MJ may have been at his 'athletic' prime playing before he first retired but probably came back at a 'mental' peak/prime... if there's such thing.

I agree with this. As he came back, he wasn't the same athletically, so he had to invent his patented fadeaway.

So in light of me saying this, a second question is... could we say that an athletic peak and mental peak in sports exists?

An athletic peak exists as you age, your athletic abilities decline, but there's no such thing as a skills peak or a mental peak, imo. The skills are always there. You can be rusty, but you'll never lose your skills, all the things you've learned. Well, maybe there is a mental peak if we're talking about senile old men, but that's not the case.

[Andrew]

I would say that he was in his prime throughout the 90s, with the interruption of his first retirement prior to the 1993/1994 season. Also, the description of him being "reckless in a good way" is more appropriate for his earlier career rather than the first threepeat years, in my opinion.

[Zoom]

Thanks for clearing that up Andrew. So what do you think seperated the first threepeat Michael and the second threepeat Michael apart... and not talking about his awesome display in Space Jam

[Andrew]

Athleticism is the main difference. He was still a great athlete through the Bulls' second threepeat run but age was taking its toll and needless to say he wasn't the same athlete he was in his early 20s and not quite the same athlete he was in his early 30s. To that end, he reinvented his game without really losing a step. His basketball smarts were also more apparent as they allowed him to succeed where once before his sheer athleticism might have offered the greatest advantage; not that he had a loaw basketball IQ before his first retirement, mind you.

Given that he was older one can also suggest he was somewhat wiser and more mature. Sam Smith's The Jordan Rules suggested the 1991-1993 championship teams had their share of internal strife while the 1996-1998 championship teams seemed to be a tighter-knit group. Perhaps his experiences with his attempt at a baseball career had something to do with that as well since it placed him the position of being just another player on the team as far as his skill level was concerned.

[Zoom]

Maybe the feeling of 'being used' and being treated differently in the baseball team when he wanted to be one of the guys taught him a lesson? I'm sure I've read that he felt like that while he was with the baseball players.

Do you know what Michael and Luc Longley's relationship was like? Would be interesting to know.

[BIG GREEN]

He was in his prime before the first retirement stats wise.

[air gordon]

I would say that he was in his prime throughout the 90s, with the interruption of his first retirement prior to the 1993/1994 season. Also, the description of him being "reckless in a good way" is more appropriate for his earlier career rather than the first threepeat years, in my opinion.

i guess i'd have to agree here. but i think his 'peak prime' was in 92-93. those were the last years i saw Jordan and his doberman like defense to go along with his killer offense.

Jordan came back a smarter player offensively after his 1st retirement but defensively- he gave over the reigns as the teams best defender to Pippen

[Andrew]

Do you know what Michael and Luc Longley's relationship was like? Would be interesting to know.

There's no tales that indicate any animosity between the two, though at times Longley frustrated Jordan with a lack of aggressiveness and his tendency to fumble passes. Other than that it would seem they got along fine.

[Zoom]

True. Well, I think after all of this I will need to say the Michael before retirement 1 was at his prime peak. Cheers people, pity we couldn't get much more discussion out of this.

[nlscSUPERMAN]

He "invented" the fadaway in that 2nd 3-peat because he couldn't take players off the dribble as much. But I remember Jordan using the fadeaway in the 80s and it looked better because he just kind of hovered like a cloud and hardly had to try. Whereas in the mid-90s his fadeaway was kind of straining and he was pushing himself a bit more. No doubt Jordan was better in every aspect in the 80s and early90s. And he posted up beautifully in the 80s but rarely had to do it because he was pulling up for easy jumpshots and driving and slamming. I don't think he really developed any added skills in the mid90s, he just used the skills he hadn't needed to prior to baseball. I remember when he first came back after baseball and he lost to Orlando in the playoffs, he kept driving and falling down or his layups falling short of the hoop. It was at that point that he realised he couldn't finish a lot drives and the following season (72-10) he posted up A LOT.

[nlscSUPERMAN]

I would say that he was in his prime throughout the 90s, with the interruption of his first retirement prior to the 1993/1994 season. Also, the description of him being "reckless in a good way" is more appropriate for his earlier career rather than the first threepeat years, in my opinion.

i guess i'd have to agree here. but i think his 'peak prime' was in 92-93. those were the last years i saw Jordan and his doberman like defense to go along with his killer offense.

Jordan came back a smarter player offensively after his 1st retirement but defensively- he gave over the reigns as the teams best defender to Pippen

I agree, I have a few of those games on dvd from 92-93 and there was a real sharpness about Jordan's movement on both offense and defense. In the 80s he was light on his feet and kind of glided around. In the early 90s he was moving like a powerful bullet, he has great strength and really intimidated other guards. The 64 point game in 92-93 was a good example. So was the 41ppg in the NBA Finals vs Sir Charles including that bodyslam 3-point play to win the game (when he scored 55).

[dada]

I'd say his best years were before his first retirement. We could argue that his teams performed better during his second 3peat but then again the competition changes and so does the team around him so on that point I'd have to judge him individually while ignoring his accomplishments with Chicago.

I just love looking back at those old games and watch him effortlessly blow by his man and junk on someone then lick their back like Rick James on his way down. There was just something about the strength of his moves in such a thin frame, he just overpowered guys at his position and trying to bump him only led to an "and 1".

In the last 3peat he wasnt as exciting really, at least let me say he wasnt as exciting after I gained some interest in the sport watching it then and went back and watched old games to see what he was like. I really started watching basketball in 98 (late bloomer) but looking at it now I dont think the variation of fadeaways and such gets my hormones jumping as much as him gliding through the lane and str8 punkin' defenders in the 80s and early 90s (gangsta talker aint I?). He wasnt that great an ahletic specimen in 98 either as the age showed on his body.

[nlscSUPERMAN]

He was really tired in 98 and Pippen only played 40 games that season so Jordan was on his last legs by playofftime, that was all heart that got him past the Pacers and Jazz. Actually he also looked kind of tired in the 96 Finals vs Seattle too (and a lot of people thought he didn't deserve the Finals MVP - though I thought he deserved it since you look at his numbers and they were still big even if they weren't as big as usual). The 97 Finals he seemed pretty energised though. I think his endurance was fading in that 2nd 3peat. Before baseball he was an absolute machine, and could do it all for any amount of time. That was probably his greatest strength, he had infinite reserves of energy (before baseball).

[Zoom]

It's no doubt that at a physical level, MJ was clearly not himself. Age caught up with him. At a mental and understanding of the game level, MJ was at his best. He found ways to counter this 'tiredness' you described and learnt to get past his defender by shooting and picking his spots on the floor carefully. What is amazing was that MJ was able to adpat so effectively to any situation. That's part of what makes him so great.

[nlscSUPERMAN]

Exactly, and thats why when I watched him play I always had confidence in him to find a way to get the win. Nomatter what the score was, and nomatter what the series score was. You just knew he would find a way. Like in the 93 Playoffs when the Bulls were down 0-2 after losing the first 2 games in New York. A lot of people thought the Bulls were on their way out, but I just knew Jordan would turn it around. And he rarely let the opponent force a 7th game. The Bulls played 7th games vs the Knicks in 92 and the Pacers in 98. Apart from that they always found a way to wrap it up in 6. Jordan stepped up down the stretch in game 6 many times.

[Chris_23]

Michael Jordan in his prime? The whole ninties.

You cannot compare the different threepeats. There's just no way. Yes, they are differences in ways how Michael played, but quite frankly he evolved throughout his entire career.

To be honest, you don't see that much around the league anymore. Jordan was the type who's aim was to prove others wrong, all the time. Many critiqued that, and called that arrogant. But if you look back at the older tapes of Bulls games or different NBA shows about the older days, and compare them to the second threepeat games and NBA shows, there's not that much of a difference.

People said he can't shoot threes, he broke records. People said he can't make his team a winner, he brought home three straight titles. People said he can't do that again, he brought home another three titles.

All that while being a human. People yell at Adam Morrison for crying on national television? Michael did that in loads. Of course, those two are different players, different personalities, but no one wondered why the game affected Michael so.

So which really is Michaels prime year(s)? If you -must- know the answer, I'd say in between both threepeats. He was such a psychological force behind Bulls second threepeat, and such a physical presence during the first threepeat that really, to see the exact midpoint of those two would be the true Prime in my opinion.

I could also reply the question in another way.. Which Jordan I'd like to take into my team? You know what I'd say? The Wizards Jordan. He was harsh on his teammates, bitter that he can't do things he used to do before, but he was still the -chessmaster- of the game. And I'd take chessmaster over an ace

[Zoom]

What about when was he in the peak of his prime?

[Tuomas]

Which Jordan I'd like to take into my team? You know what I'd say? The Wizards Jordan. He was harsh on his teammates, bitter that he can't do things he used to do before, but he was still the -chessmaster- of the game. And I'd take chessmaster over an ace

Ehm. I'd take the 91 Jordan on my team, and against your team it wouldn't be the Gatorade commercial.

[CMJ3]

I think Jordan was better athletically in the first 3-peat but he was a better basketball player in the second hence the better winning record etc. I liked him in his rookie days tho with his crazy ass dunks.

[nlscSUPERMAN]

To say Jordan was better athletically in the 1st 3peat is a massive understatement. In the 2nd 3-peat athletically he was only as good as Kobe (though with an IQ and willpower twice as good). And baseball definitely took away a huge amount of quickness and vertical especially. Whereas the first 3peat was off the charts in every department and he had infinite reserves of energy and strength. And the 80s was when he moved like Iverson and jumped like....Jordan. He was only 194-198lbs back then it really looked like a 6'6" iverson, except this guy worked just as hard on defense and was blocking 1.6 per game and stealing 3 per game and winning DPOY. Sure the 95-96 Bulls won 72 games, but the opponents they faced were not at the standard of those early90s Knicks teams. The Jazz and Pacers of the mid-late90s were good but not so great. Jordan was on his last legs in 98 and the Jazz choked. I will always rate the 67win Bulls of 91-92 ahead of any other team.

[Zoom]

He bulked up with baseball but I'm sure age was catching up with him too. He wasn't exactly young.