How do you feel about cheating?

A lot of players, like John Stockton and Isiah Thomas...and modern guys like Manu Ginobili and Vlade Divac...will hold, elbow, trip and flop whenever they can to get an advantage in a game.

Is it just competitive basketball, doing whatever you can get away with to win? Or is it dirty, poor sportsmanship? Does it make you think less of a player?

Is Stockton considered a worse point guard because of it? I personally rank him below Magic and Isiah Thomas because of his dirty play. How about it?

You forgot to mention Robert Horry.

Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with it. Stockton was probably the best pure PG of all time... I think there is a lot more of this than what meets the eye.

It´s all basketball, dosen´t matter

I personally play that way too

But, still... It's a sport, there will be contacts. It's not dirty, it's just who wants the most!

ha, I use my elbows and I love Karl Malone. What more is there to say?

I'm against it... I hold myself back on doing it, but if my opponent does it... I'll do it too... Even if its just a fun game at the YMCA.

Most important is win, i use my elbows too if i need them.

That's why there's referees to watch that kind of unecessary contact. Basketball's a physical sport, and part of the game is to use strategy or mind games to not only mess up your opponents but also the referees. If the referees miss a dirty Stockton pick, or if Stockton can pull it off with such skill that it doesn't even look dirty, then he has that unique ability to take things to his advantage. It's all part of the game. You might hate the fact that Divac flops, but it's a 50-50 chance that the flop won't be called and somebody can go in for an easy dunk or layup, but on the other hand, he'll frustrate his opponent by drawing a foul. It's a strategic game, it's not just about scoring and playing defense.

if we're talking about taking out players legs on a fast break or elbowing them on the face like Karl Malone did to Isiah, that does not belong in the game

other then that type of behavior, i agree with Cyanide

Despite basketball being "non-contact", physicality is definitely a part of the game and needn't be a problem. However, intentionally injuring an opponent is unsportsmanlike and has no place in the game. If the only way you can stop an opponent is to injure them, maybe combat sports are more suited to your ideals.

Cheap strategies - holding, flopping, etc - are definitely things that we hold to double standards. If we're employing them or our favourite team is employing them most of us are probably forgiving, but we'll be questioning an official's eyesight when an opponent uses those same tactics. I guess it depends on your idea of what's cheap or not. Is skillfully drawing a shooting foul a cheap tactic? Some might feel that way, personally I feel it's a cunning move and on the level.

Flopping is cheap while drawing a legitimate charge is good hustle, but at the same time I think some of the time players need to act a little if only to draw attention to the contact since the offensive player traditionally gets more leeway.

I think there's a fine line between being competitive and utilising strategy and being a cheap player. A player like John Stockton who possesses skills that clearly establishes him as a great player doesn't look as cheap because there's no doubt he can play the game at a high level. A player who can do nothing but rough up his opponents with tactics that are unsportsmanlike or border on unsportsmanlike isn't going to be looked upon as favourably.

And then there's the old Jordan pump fake to get your guy in the air and jump into him for the shooting foul.

I remember some kid tried that on a playground and tried to claim a foul and he got laughed off the court.

Hmm, nobody mentioned bruce bowen...


One of the thing I like most about mj was whenever he got a cheap shot, he returned the favor bigtime, usually without having to use cheap shots... sometimes he'd hit a bunch more points highlight like, if it were possible and raisisng the level of his attacking type of D.

"dirty" play hurts teams when someone does it on the defensive end, like holding or flopping (manu).

In our league, there was this guy that used to intentionally hurt people on screens, so i started elbowing him in the stomache everytime he set a screen. He didn't try that one on me anymore.

Basketball is about that too, if you can take advantage, then do it god damn!!
I do it too and referees don't call fouls on me the 90% of the times: When they see me (I'm a big guy in comparision to the guys that play in my league) and they see the small kid falling to the floor they just think: "He's a pussy, that's why he fell off".
It's the same when you're small and you do it against big guys: referees don't call fouls on you because they think:"Look at him, he's small, what could have he done to that big guy"
Basketball is about this. If you can take advantage of something, do it!

Is Stockton considered a worse point guard because of it? I personally rank him below Magic and Isiah Thomas because of his dirty play. How about it?

I personally rank him the best point guard to ever play the game. You know why? Point guards are supposed to play the game simply AND PASS THE BALL as simple as possible. They are not supposed to score a lot, just above 10 points is ok. Today's point guards score too much and do those shitty streetball moves in professional basketball.
John Stockton let people know what is the way basketball should be played. Have you ever seen him done some streetball or even a crossover? Have you ever seen him shoot the ball when he had the opportunity to pass te ball? I don't, and that doesn't make him worse than another point guard, that makes him better than any other point guard. He let people see that it isn't neccessary to take 40 shots a game, play selfishly or do "showtime" to be a good player, he let people see how simple and beautiful basketball could be. And the fact that he preferred to pass the ball than to shoot it, makes him a GREAT player.
Also, he did not cheat, he just took advantage of EVERY thing he had the possibilty to take advantage of.
In my opinion, he's the most intelligent, the most unselfish and the greatest point guard to ever play the game.

there was a nice example tonight of Gyno flopping but no call & a Bucks score

there was a nice example tonight of Gyno flopping but no call & a Bucks score

Oooh, Piston bitterness oozes out, hehe...

I personally rank him the best point guard to ever play the game. You know why? Point guards are supposed to play the game simply AND PASS THE BALL as simple as possible. They are not supposed to score a lot, just above 10 points is ok. Today's point guards score too much and do those shitty streetball moves in professional basketball.
John Stockton let people know what is the way basketball should be played. Have you ever seen him done some streetball or even a crossover? Have you ever seen him shoot the ball when he had the opportunity to pass te ball? I don't, and that doesn't make him worse than another point guard, that makes him better than any other point guard. He let people see that it isn't neccessary to take 40 shots a game, play selfishly or do "showtime" to be a good player, he let people see how simple and beautiful basketball could be. And the fact that he preferred to pass the ball than to shoot it, makes him a GREAT player.
Also, he did not cheat, he just took advantage of EVERY thing he had the possibilty to take advantage of.
In my opinion, he's the most intelligent, the most unselfish and the greatest point guard to ever play the game.

I agree with almost everything you said. That's why Stockton is in my Top 3 All-Time. But I just can't condone the way he would do stuff like screen with his elbows up to try and injure the other player.

In regards to not needing to be fancy and all that, that's true. But Isiah and Magic both knew when to be fancy and when to simply play ball. A lot of these knuckleheads today can't tell the difference, which is why they can't touch Stockton. But since Isiah and Magic were both so superior physically to Stockton, with more mental toughness (Isiah, not that Stockton wasn't headstrong but Isiah was INCREDIBLY so) and more tools (Magic), I can't rate him above them.

It's all about preferences... As I said i'd put him as the best point guard to ever play the game, maybe below Magic but not below Isiah.

I think Magic was really more of a scoring guard. Stockton is the type of player that people look to build their PG around.

I don't fault him for how he set screens... it's rare to see a person of his size setting screens anyway..

Magic took on more of a scoring role as Kareem entered his 40s and took a backseat but I wouldn't call him a scoring guard. That said Stockton is a more classic example of a point guard as Magic was a 6'9" rarity.

Vlade Divac was one of those players in Sacramento who used to drive me up with wall with all his antics in the paint. One of those plays he used to do was he would grab your arm and throw himself around you to make it seem like you were hooking. He had such a wide variety of flops and such that I sometimes wonder if he spends more time on that practicing rather than improving on his game.

Vlade Divac was one of those players in Sacramento who used to drive me up with wall with all his antics in the paint. One of those plays he used to do was he would grab your arm and throw himself around you to make it seem like you were hooking. He had such a wide variety of flops and such that I sometimes wonder if he spends more time on that practicing rather than improving on his game.

he had a killer hook though.



Vlade.... He turned it into an art form. Wish he woulda retired as a king...

Vlade Divac was one of those players in Sacramento who used to drive me up with wall with all his antics in the paint. One of those plays he used to do was he would grab your arm and throw himself around you to make it seem like you were hooking. He had such a wide variety of flops and such that I sometimes wonder if he spends more time on that practicing rather than improving on his game.

That's European craftiness for you!

It's all about preferences... As I said i'd put him as the best point guard to ever play the game, maybe below Magic but not below Isiah.

How can you rank him ahead of Isiah exactly? Stockton had one of the best power forwards alongside him his entire career and he didnt win a ring. Thomas led a bunch of misfits to back to back titles. He didnt make any excuses about having to overcome greatness (he did conquer Jordan and Magic and Bird).. and fans will often give stockton a free pass becuase he faced Jordan? Well Isiah was the catylst behind those piston teams that beat jordan and the bulls.

Oooh, Piston bitterness oozes out, hehe...

not really man, we had plenty chances to win, but you cant deny that he does get bullshit calls on both ends