Cavs' starting five

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Cavs' starting five

Postby Bill Russell on Mon Jan 20, 2003 11:44 am

I've been thinking about this for a while... When I had Live 2001 installed on my puter, I used different lineups, depending on the team I would face.

Cleveland now seems to have a logjam of swingmen and power forwards, and that's why I would like to hear from everybody.

The roster:

Darius Miles
Ricky Davis
Dajuan Wagner
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Tyrone Hill
Milt Palacio
Bimbo Coles
Carlos Boozer
Chris Mihm
Jumaine Jones
Smush Parker
... and others I can't think of right now.

I started using...

C - Ilgauskas
PF - Hill
SF - Miles
SG - Davis
PG - Wagner

... but I ended up discovering Wagner had usually to start the plays, when he's actually the best finisher and shooter on the team.

So I switched to...

C - Ilgauskas
PF - Miles
SF - Davis
SG - Wagner
PG - Coles/Palacio/Parker

... and I found out Miles isn't a good post player and defender. To top that, the PG's is left out to cover Wagner's assignment, and it isn't good. Philadelphia, per example, has Iverson and Snow in the backcourt, and Snow usually defends the SG... He's a good defender. But Coles/Palacio/Parker aren't.

If the Cavs get LJ they could try this...

Opinions, suggestions please... :?
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Postby Clinton on Mon Jan 20, 2003 1:41 pm

... but I ended up discovering Wagner had usually to start the plays, when he's actually the best finisher and shooter on the team.


Definately a better scorer than playmaker. Should start at the 2.

and I found out Miles isn't a good post player and defender.


Hell no! Too skinny and has a poor defensive game.

If the Cavs get LJ they could try this...


If they get LeBron they would have to give up Davis or Wagner, or bench one of them.
They could run a lineup like this:
C-Illgauskas
PF-Boozer
SF-James
SG-Wagner/Davis
PG-Parker (could deal Davis, Miles or Wagner for someone better.)



With their current lineup they should be running-
C-Illgauskas
PF-Boozer
SF-Davis
SG-Wagner
PG-Parker

Boozer gets just as many rebounds and points as Hill in less minutes. He was the steal of the draft and deserves to be starting. Although Wagner is small for his position, its the position you want him in (As Tales said, see Iverson, Allen). Parker runs the point as he can get the scorers the ball and has been putting up some decent games. On form alone Darius Miles should be benched. He has been shooting terribly and doesn't put a lot of effort in on the defensive end. The most he brings to the table is a scoring spark off the bench (occasionally).
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Postby MC Hao on Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:52 pm

Miles is hampered by injuries and recently he's been starting at the point (what the hell are you thinking, coach Lucas??), and he's doing terribly at the point. Just like Wagner, he's a finisher not a playmaker (hell no!).
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Postby Bill Russell on Tue Jan 21, 2003 12:49 am

But that's why I think they should have to deal either Davis, Wagner or Parker for a PG... all them are swingmen, though Parker plays a bit of PG.

If they get LJ through the draft, they could start him at the point, playing like a point-forward, Grant Hill/Antoine Walker-esque. And he would defend the SG on defense, with Wagner getting the assignment of defending the PG.

Ilgauskas is a sure lock to be the starting C, and Boozer at least seems their future starting PF. Davis could be the starting SF, and Miles would be the sixth man.

Is Jumaine Jones a SF or a PF? Cos Miles is better suited to play SF (well, he's not strong, he doesn't have a heck of a shot... a classic tweener)... and Jones doesn't seems big enough to play inside. So we could have a logjam there again.

They could package Hill and some of their swingmen and trade for a point man...
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Postby Nick on Tue Jan 21, 2003 1:11 am

Perhaps LJ will have grown to suit the PF position?

C-Z
PF- LJ
SF miles
SG- Davis.Wagner
PG- Wagner.Parker
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Postby Bill Russell on Tue Jan 21, 2003 1:31 am

I dunno, I think of LJ as a much better version of Lamar Odom; he's not a rebounder and inside player, he's a playmaker and passer.

The Cavs have too much SFs and SGs... With the disadvantage that none of them is a playmaker, all are finishers and scorers... They can't win that way.

They also could do like that Sixers team that went to the finals two years, where they got all the defensive players they could to cover all shit Iverson did on D, and never care about getting the ball on O... That could work if Wagner was an incredible player, but IMO he's not quite there yet... And they would have to deal Davis, Miles, etc. for "desire" players, ie, role players... They could get some draft picks too...
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Postby Nick on Tue Jan 21, 2003 1:39 am

Shouldn't have traded miller for Miles....imagine...

C-Z
PF-Hill.boozer
SF-Lebron
SG-Davis
PG-Miller
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Postby Big Answer on Tue Jan 21, 2003 2:14 am

Will LJ be drafted this year (2003) ????
Do U think he'll be the n°1 of the next draft ???
And what would happen if the cavs don't have the first choice ???
Think of it......... :wink:
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Postby Bill Russell on Tue Jan 21, 2003 2:22 am

Shouldn't have traded miller for Miles....


I guess they tried hard to tank the season... And Miles was said to have such an upside... Won't have till he gets a shot though.

Will LJ be drafted this year (2003) ????


I think so...

Do U think he'll be the n°1 of the next draft ???


Probably... Who else is better, on high school, college or foreign ball?

And what would happen if the cavs don't have the first choice ???And what would happen if the cavs don't have the first choice ???



Then either Carter is gonna have his new McGrady or the Nuggets will be the new Clips...
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Postby Big Answer on Tue Jan 21, 2003 2:32 am

What are LJ's stats this year ????
How old iz he ???
Is he a potential future MJ (wearing the 23 is a bit hard) :roll: ?
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Postby Bill Russell on Tue Jan 21, 2003 2:51 am

He's 18 years old...

Averaging 30 ppg, 11 rpg and 5 apg...

Yeah he is a potential future MJ...

Check this out...
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Postby Wall St. Peon on Tue Jan 21, 2003 3:11 am

Clindrew wrote:C-Illgauskas
PF-Boozer
SF-James
SG-Wagner/Davis
PG-Parker


You'd bench a proven scorer in Davis for an undersized shooting guard who hasn't proven a thing?
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Postby benji on Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:44 am

Probably... Who else is better, on high school, college or foreign ball?

There's at least four or five people...at least...Anthony, Milicic, Bosh come to mind right now...
If they get LeBron they would have to give up Davis or Wagner, or bench one of them.

They wouldn't have to...infact I'd probably bench LeBron instead of those two.
With their current lineup they should be running-
C-Illgauskas
PF-Boozer
SF-Davis
SG-Wagner
PG-Parker

I'd slide Davis and Wagner down and put in Jumaine Jones at the SF.
But that's why I think they should have to deal either Davis, Wagner or Parker for a PG... all them are swingmen, though Parker plays a bit of PG.

If they deal anyone it's Parker and he won't bring back a good PG. Davis is and will be their best player. Wagner could be dealt, but I'd keep him.
Is Jumaine Jones a SF or a PF? Cos Miles is better suited to play SF (well, he's not strong, he doesn't have a heck of a shot... a classic tweener)... and Jones doesn't seems big enough to play inside. So we could have a logjam there again.

Jones can play either F, he can post up better than most people think, he's better than Miles because he can actually shoot.
They could package Hill and some of their swingmen and trade for a point man...

They wouldn't get a good one in return.
Perhaps LJ will have grown to suit the PF position?

C-Z
PF- LJ
SF miles
SG- Davis.Wagner
PG- Wagner.Parker

I wouldn't move Boozer out, nor start Miles.
I dunno, I think of LJ as a much better version of Lamar Odom;

The only problem with that statement is that Odom can shoot, defend and play any position on the floor.
And they would have to deal Davis, Miles, etc. for "desire" players, ie, role players

Which is moronic since Davis is their best player and one of the biggest competitors in the league.
And Miles was said to have such an upside...

They only got him to bring in the fans, since so many people think he's a great player, despite his numbers decreasing every year despite playing more minutes.
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Postby MC Hao on Tue Jan 21, 2003 5:17 am

John Lucas just got fired!! I really feel bad for him. :cry:
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Postby Bill Russell on Tue Jan 21, 2003 5:33 am

There's at least four or five people...at least...Anthony, Milicic, Bosh come to mind right now...


Carmelo Anthony, could be, but I confess I never saw anything besides highlights on SportsCenter from him... His stats are great though... But LJ seems to be a better ballhandler...

About Milicic, the guy's been playing in Spain or something for like 2 or 3 years, so he should be well acquainted with the pro game... But the NBA game is different from Europe's... And he may not declare for the draft cos of his age...

I dunno about Bosh... Hard to get so detailed news about this guy when you're on Brazil and your Slam magazine subscription is over too... :cry:

They wouldn't have to...infact I'd probably bench LeBron instead of those two.


Seems like a good idea... Like how the Rockets did with Yao at the beginning...

If they deal anyone it's Parker and he won't bring back a good PG. Davis is and will be their best player. Wagner could be dealt, but I'd keep him.


Yeah, Parker seems the most likely to be dealt... And I agree he won't bring back a good player... Could be traded for Marko Jaric, per example... Or some draft picks... Wagner seems untouchable right now...

Jones can play either F, he can post up better than most people think, he's better than Miles because he can actually shoot.


Yeah, I agree, but he's undersized, inconsistent and has limited range.

They wouldn't get a good one in return.


Some teams would be interested cos Hill's contract doesn't have many years left (this year and the next, if I'm not mistaken). A team like Boston, per example, could deal Shammond Williams and Walter McCarty for Hill and Miles, or something like that... When Hill's and Miles' contracts are up, the Celts will have some cap left...

The only problem with that statement is that Odom can shoot, defend and play any position on the floor.


Wouldn't LJ do all that and more with 3 years of pro experience? Plus he may be rich enough to buy a joint bigger than Shaq's weight...

Which is moronic since Davis is their best player and one of the biggest competitors in the league.


Philadelphia had Ratliff and Stackhouse before dealing them for Mckie and Mutombo... (yeah, Ratliff came as part of the Stack trade)... The problem is not certain players don't want to compete, it's that they won't be able to fill certain roles to maximize the teams' potential...

They only got him to bring in the fans, since so many people think he's a great player, despite his numbers decreasing every year despite playing more minutes.


Exactly... Maybe he's in the wrong environment... Maybe he will take some more time to develop, like Kwame Brown... :wink:
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Postby EGarrett on Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:52 am

There's at least four or five people...at least...Anthony, Milicic, Bosh come to mind right now...


Why take the shorter, skinnier Marcus Camby over the taller, stronger Kobe Bryant?

And Anthony is a great player. He didn't measure up to Lebron, though, when they went head-to-head in high school last year. Milicic isn't allowed in the draft and thus is irrelevant.

And if the Cavs draft Lebron...they'll be making a trade or some type of roster shift so that they will be able to start him. When you get that kind of media spotlight on a franchise that's hurting for fan support and money...you make the most of it. They'd also be well advised to do everything they can to make sure Lebron develops.
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Postby Clinton on Tue Jan 21, 2003 10:15 am

Will LJ be drafted this year (2003) ????


Looks like it.

Do U think he'll be the n°1 of the next draft ???


Most definately. Any team that passes on him is going to regret it.

You'd bench a proven scorer in Davis for an undersized shooting guard who hasn't proven a thing?


Didn't say I would bench him, just couldn't decide. If you read on you would have noticed I said they should deal either Davis, Miles or Wagner for a solid point. Neither Davis or Wagner are going to be happy coming off the bench.

I'd slide Davis and Wagner down and put in Jumaine Jones at the SF.


But then you have a scorer running the point. Didn't work with Iverson, not working with Terry, not going to work with Wagner.

The only problem with that statement is that Odom can shoot, defend and play any position on the floor.


Can't LeBron also shoot and play any position on the floor? I will agree he isn't the greatest defender, but I'm sure he will work on it.[/quote]
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Postby Bill Russell on Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:48 am

And Anthony is a great player. He didn't measure up to Lebron, though, when they went head-to-head in high school last year. Milicic isn't allowed in the draft and thus is irrelevant.


Exactly my thoughts...

And if the Cavs draft Lebron...they'll be making a trade or some type of roster shift so that they will be able to start him. When you get that kind of media spotlight on a franchise that's hurting for fan support and money...you make the most of it. They'd also be well advised to do everything they can to make sure Lebron develops.


Yeah, I agree too... Wouldn't a team like Sacramento deal Bobby Jackson and Keon Clark to have a guy like Ricky Davis on their roster...? I think so.
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Postby TheBob on Wed Jan 22, 2003 7:58 am

Clindrew wrote: But then you have a scorer running the point. Didn't work with Iverson, not working with Terry, not going to work with Wagner.


Ummm actually it could very well work. It only failed with Iverson due to his poor attitude. He was actually putting up pretty good numbers when he played point, averaging more assists in his rookie year than Snow is now. As for Terry I'd say he's doing a pretty good job averaging 17 and 7.
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Postby benji on Wed Jan 22, 2003 8:24 am

Clinton wrote:Didn't say I would bench him, just couldn't decide. If you read on you would have noticed I said they should deal either Davis, Miles or Wagner for a solid point. Neither Davis or Wagner are going to be happy coming off the bench.

Davis wouldn't come off the bench. If they trade Mies they aren't getting a "solid point" in return.
Clinton wrote:But then you have a scorer running the point. Didn't work with Iverson, not working with Terry, not going to work with Wagner.

It did work with Terry though, it worked with Iverson to a point, and Wagner could eaisly do it. Plus, if James is such a great distributor then they have no problem. Davis and Wagner would be more than good enough.
Clinton wrote:Can't LeBron also shoot and play any position on the floor? I will agree he isn't the greatest defender, but I'm sure he will work on it.

No, he can't shoot, and he can't play any position. I doubt he'll work on it, he's told he's already the best, no need to work.
Tales wrote:Yeah, I agree too... Wouldn't a team like Sacramento deal Bobby Jackson and Keon Clark to have a guy like Ricky Davis on their roster...? I think so.

No, they wouldn't. For one, they wouldn't have a backup point guard and one of the, if not the, best backup in the league, who is definately all-star material this year before getting hurt. And Clark is a big man who can spell Divac and Webber. Davis plays a position they already have plenty of.
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Postby Clinton on Wed Jan 22, 2003 9:58 am

It only failed with Iverson due to his poor attitude.


And the fact he was jacking up 20+ shots a night.

Davis wouldn't come off the bench.


Do you think Wagner would after one or two years in the league? Sure he might be fine doing it now, he is a rookie and you have to expect that. But he knows he is only going to be wasted in the future by coming off the bench. You can't have a scorer like him coming off the bench.

and Wagner could eaisly do it.


The fact that he can play point and the fact of it being the best thing for the team are two different things. It doesn't work having a scorer at the point, especially when you have two or three other guys who want their shots. The Cavs need a distibuting point guard to get all their scorers the ball. When Wagner did start at the point earlier this season he was getting 1 or 2 assists.

No, he can't shoot, and he can't play any position.


Not what I've heard. Must have some other great parts about his game if he is getting this much hype and he can't shoot. He scores 30ppg are all these point from dunks and layups? Don't think so. He probably couldn't play centre, but he would fit in almost anywhere else on the floor.
So I guess in other words your saying Lamar Odom is better then LeBron James is going to be?
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Postby benji on Thu Jan 23, 2003 8:55 am

Clinton wrote: you think Wagner would after one or two years in the league? Sure he might be fine doing it now, he is a rookie and you have to expect that. But he knows he is only going to be wasted in the future by coming off the bench. You can't have a scorer like him coming off the bench.

Davis is better than Wagner, thus, he will start over him.
Clinton wrote:The fact that he can play point and the fact of it being the best thing for the team are two different things. It doesn't work having a scorer at the point, especially when you have two or three other guys who want their shots. The Cavs need a distibuting point guard to get all their scorers the ball. When Wagner did start at the point earlier this season he was getting 1 or 2 assists.

Wagner has put up the best "true point guard" production out of the four main guys who's spent time at the point. And with Davis' abilities and if James as is as good as you claim he is at distributing the basketball, then they have no need for a point guard that does that.
Clinton wrote:Not what I've heard.

Then you've heard wrong.
Clinton wrote:Must have some other great parts about his game if he is getting this much hype and he can't shoot.

Yeah, he can dunk.
Clinton wrote:He scores 30ppg are all these point from dunks and layups? Don't think so.

Game against Oak Hill where he scored 31 points. Made only two jumpers. When your far faster, bigger and stronger than everyone else on the floor, there's no reason why you couldn't score almost 30 a game with no jump shot.
Clinton wrote:He probably couldn't play centre, but he would fit in almost anywhere else on the floor.

He can't play Center, Power Forward or Point Guard.
Clinton wrote:So I guess in other words your saying Lamar Odom is better then LeBron James is going to be?

When Lamar Odom came out of High School, he was far more polished and better than LeBron James will be coming out of High School. It's the same thing we've seen year in and year out since the class of 97 because of national AAU, camps like ABCD and such. The HSers who have come out, despite being more hyped, have been nowhere near the players the ones pre-97 were (barring a few minor exceptions such as Amare, who mainly stayed away from the AAU play from what I have heard, and you could argue Rashard Lewis) because they are jetting around the country playing in games rather than working on their game. It's Michael Jordan's fault if you care to know.
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Postby Clinton on Thu Jan 23, 2003 9:32 am

Wagner has put up the best "true point guard" production out of the four main guys who's spent time at the point.


Depends what you want from your point guard. If it includes shooting 20 shots and only getting a couple of assists then fine. But I seriously don't think the Cavs need that. They really need to get Dre back. I know they are trying to have a losing year, but that trade was just crazy. Miller was the teams leader and is going to be one of the best point guards ever. He should have definately been in their future plans.

if James as is as good as you claim he is at distributing the basketball


Where have I hyped him as a great passer? All I have been saying the whole thread is the Cavs have noone who can distribute the ball. Maybe when Bimbo Coles gets back he can bring some veteran leadership into the lineup.

then they have no need for a point guard that does that.


Yes they do. They need someone to get the shooters the ball. They already have 3 guys who don't hesitate to shot and a big man who doesn't get half the touches he deserves, then if they get lucky in the draft and get LeBron you have another scorer who wants the ball.

Then you've heard wrong.


I've heard he has quite a good 18 foot jumper and fadeaway.

Yeah, he can dunk.


Right, that's what all this hype is about.

Game against Oak Hill where he scored 31 points. Made only two jumpers.


So he got a bit excited with the cameras around. He was throwing up crazy shots.

He can't play Center, Power Forward or Point Guard.


I still think he has the ballhandling skills to play point-forward. If he adds some muscle he could play power forward if you want to run a smaller, quicker lineup.

When Lamar Odom came out of High School, he was far more polished and better than LeBron James will be coming out of High School.


I'll take your word for it. :lol:

It's Michael Jordan's fault if you care to know.


I knew this had to be MJ's fault somehow. :lol: LeBron is being labelled as the "Next Jordan" as old as it is, and you have found a new person to hate on.
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Postby Wall St. Peon on Thu Jan 23, 2003 10:21 am

Clindrew wrote:The fact that he can play point and the fact of it being the best thing for the team are two different things. It doesn't work having a scorer at the point, especially when you have two or three other guys who want their shots. The Cavs need a distibuting point guard to get all their scorers the ball. When Wagner did start at the point earlier this season he was getting 1 or 2 assists.


It doesn't work? Gary Payton, Stephon Marbury, Sam Cassell, Jason Terry, and many in the past...

Clindrew wrote:Depends what you want from your point guard. If it includes shooting 20 shots and only getting a couple of assists then fine. But I seriously don't think the Cavs need that. They really need to get Dre back. I know they are trying to have a losing year, but that trade was just crazy. Miller was the teams leader and is going to be one of the best point guards ever. He should have definately been in their future plans.


Andre Miller would have bolted Cleveland after this year anyway - and the Cavs would have gotten squat for him. In doing the trade, the Cavs got a horrible, yet popular, player in Miles who can help them lose the entire season and draft LeBron James. If the Cavs still had Miller, they probably wouldn't get the number one pick.

Clindrew wrote:All I have been saying the whole thread is the Cavs have noone who can distribute the ball. Maybe when Bimbo Coles gets back he can bring some veteran leadership into the lineup.


Bimbo Coles starting and distributing? hehe, you're funny....Coles is worse than Rick Brunson...

Clindrew wrote:Yes they do. They need someone to get the shooters the ball. They already have 3 guys who don't hesitate to shot and a big man who doesn't get half the touches he deserves, then if they get lucky in the draft and get LeBron you have another scorer who wants the ball.


The shooters? The only two people that really need to get the ball are Ricky Davis and Ilgauskus. The only reason Miles should be on the floor is for alley-oops, rebounds, and blocks. Wagner could run pick and rolls with Ilgauskus (unless Ilgauskus' foot breaks) and get assists or points that way, and then they could play an inside outside game with cutters to the hoop, ie Miles and Davis. The Cavs could be a good team if the players understood their role...Wagner could be a great point guard in the mold of Payton, if he wanted...

Clindrew wrote:I've heard he has quite a good 18 foot jumper and fadeaway.


*shrug* So do I...and I'm playing against kids that are probably about as good as the kids he's playing against, if not better...every once in a while Tim Barnes comes to play, and he's better than LeBron James...

[/quote]
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Postby EGarrett on Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:32 pm

Tim Barnes better than Lebron James. Let's not get ridiculous. Is your friend a 17-year-old...6'8" 240 pound man-child with a 40-inch vertical leap...great passing ability...a nice crossover AND a fadeaway jumper?
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