Are the Raptors Better w/o Carter?

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Are the Raps really Better without Carter?

Poll ended at Sun Feb 09, 2003 11:24 am

Yes, Carter should stay out of the Line up
0
No votes
No, the Raps need Carter ASA
12
92%
Maybe, It's too dificult to decide
1
8%
 
Total votes : 13

Are the Raptors Better w/o Carter?

Postby scubilete on Mon Jan 20, 2003 11:24 am

Former Carter's Teammate Keon Clark believes the Raps are better without Carter, lol.

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2003/0105/1487557.html
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Postby Andrew on Mon Jan 20, 2003 11:30 am

I say the Raptors are better off without an ailing Vince Carter, that they are better off without a player who isn't 100%, which he clearly isn't. Healthy and on top of his game, the Raptors are certainly better off with Carter in the lineup.
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Postby TheBob on Mon Jan 20, 2003 12:51 pm

This thread is idiotic....is any Nba team better without their best player who hapens to be an all-star?
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Postby Andrew on Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:29 pm

I don't think it's idiotic. After all, the Raptors were on a double digits losing streak last season with Carter in the lineup (was it 13? My memory fails me right now) then made an impressive run to make the playoffs with Carter out for the season. This discussion isn't so much doubting Carter's ability as much as how he fits into the Raptors system - and if they would do better with another player in his place.
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Postby raptor15 on Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:02 pm

I don't think it's idiotic. After all, the Raptors were on a double digits losing streak last season with Carter in the lineup (was it 13? My memory fails me right now) then made an impressive run to make the playoffs with Carter out for the season. This discussion isn't so much doubting Carter's ability as much as how he fits into the Raptors system - and if they would do better with another player in his place


But you forget the 1st six of those games were without Carter. When he returned, he couldn't pull them out of their slump, that THEY had dug themselves into.
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Postby Andrew on Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:19 pm

I should have said that idea wasn't necessarily my view. I already posted that I believe the Raptors are better with Vince. But some might argue that, mentioning last year as an example, which is why I made that post. Again, that's me failing to elaborate and explain my position. :wink:
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Postby raptor15 on Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:00 pm

Yes of course. But I just wanted to get the facts straight. Carter did not play all of those 13 games. :)
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Postby TheBob on Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:55 am

In fact I believe (but am not sure) that Carter played in only a couple of those first 13 if any...Andrew don't you think that the raptors playing against poor teams ( Cleveland, Miami, Atlanta, Chicago x2 and Philadelphia without Iverson) and finally learning to play without Carter may have significantly contributed to the Raps' 9 game winning streak?
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Postby raptor15 on Tue Jan 21, 2003 10:23 am

OK. I have it here.

He was out the first 7 games of the 13 game losing streak. Once he returned, they lost 6 more games, before winning ONE game. Sadly, right after that one win, they lost 4 more with Carter still playing. They called it quits for him, and the next game directly, the winning streak began.

I don't know how they accomplished what they did, but you must remember. In the playoffs, when it really counted, they couldn't pull it past the 1st round. When Carter was playing the year before, they made the eastern finals. (the good old days.... :()
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Postby scubilete on Tue Jan 21, 2003 10:42 am

This thread is idiotic....is any Nba team better without their best player who hapens to be an all-star?


I just posted a link of someone who believes the Raps are better without what you call his best player. I've seen in other threads they are saying Carter is going to be traded, now I would ask you, why would a team trade his "Best" Player?, like you would say.

Are the Magic better without Grant Hill?, Like anyone would say, if that player is going to play hurt, maybe is better not to have him in the line up. I knew you were going to post here, but I thought you were going to give your own opinion about that article, not that you would come complaining about the thread, lol. You are just that.
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Postby Andrew on Tue Jan 21, 2003 12:10 pm

Andrew don't you think that the raptors playing against poor teams ( Cleveland, Miami, Atlanta, Chicago x2 and Philadelphia without Iverson) and finally learning to play without Carter may have significantly contributed to the Raps' 9 game winning streak?


Of course I do, and I did say

that idea wasn't necessarily my view


Originally, I said

Healthy and on top of his game, the Raptors are certainly better off with Carter in the lineup.


I believe the Raptors are a better team with Vince Carter than they are without him, but my point is some might argue otherwise, using last season's run as an example, so the thread isn't idiotic. I never agreed with that thinking (that the run is proof of the Raptors being better without him) or said it was my view. I already stated that I believed Vince in the lineup was good for Toronto, I was just stating the opposing viewpoint, to show there was another side of the discussion therefore it wasn't a stupid topic.

You've already countered the opposition's first argument of course, in that Carter did not play in all of those 13 straight losses, and an easier schedule certainly helped the run. I agree with that. Like I said, I'm on the pro-Vince side of this discussion, if you read my first post. :)
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Postby scubilete on Tue Jan 21, 2003 12:30 pm

Afterwards, I believe those teams (Cleveland, Miami, Atlanta & Chicago) are better teams than the Raps without Carter. I was the first one to vote in the Thread saying that the Raps are better with Carter but you have to get other point of view. I don't know if you read the article, but Keon has a point there, maybe wrong but that's his point of view.

Does anyone remember the year the Knicks went to the finals against San Antonio?. Right, with Patrick Ewing injured, the 8th Spot made a playoff run to get to the finals without the main figure, bcause Spree & Allan were there but the Heart of NY was Patrick. After that run, The Knicks thought they could do it without Patrick, and just using Camby. The Knicks let Patrick go, and as a result of that they have been just a joke when you say they will be in the playoffs.

Many thought the Knicks were better without him, the stats that year were showing the Knicks would play better without him, but once he left, NY hasn't been a playoff team.
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Postby Rens on Tue Jan 21, 2003 10:55 pm

I had this idea yesterday.. to take every team in the league, take off their projected SG, SF, PF and C and some backups and try and figure out how they'd do... but I thought just posting this would be enough as well.

Ofcourse the Lakers would have a much much better than the Raptors at the moment when we'd do that to them, right? Kings? Spurs? Mavs? Nets? Pacers? Celtics? Say what you want.. they'd all be worse or just as bad as the Raptors now...
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Postby scubilete on Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:48 am

There's Just one problem there, I understand the Raps are doing bad, I understand they have been going thru a lot with injuries, but I see at the moment they have most of those players (that were injured) playing.

A. Williams
A. Davis
M. Peterson
V. Lenard
L. Hunter

so at this moment you would just have to take the main SG from each team to check that. I believe the Raps need a new manager, Wilkens is already with that in mind, that he can't do much without Carter, that's not how you go and play. I remember those coaches that used to take anything you put in their hands to play a game, Fratello, Dunleavy, Van Gundy, they are able to take that Raps team and get them to compete without Carter. Riley should be able to do much more than what he's doing with the Heat, but he already has in mind that he can't win without Mourning, so they will be just that bad. Same for the Knicks, I believe the Knicks have a good team to at least give others a hard time, but Chaney has already in mind that he needed McDyess to get to that.

My point there is: there are managers that can't do much without their stars, but there are others that are able to show much better results out of the same line ups or situations.
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Postby Bill Russell on Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:10 am

Former Carter's Teammate Keon Clark believes the Raps are better without Carter, lol.


You know what, Clark must have smoken a fatty one when he said that...
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Postby TheBob on Wed Jan 22, 2003 8:16 am

I'd like to apologize to scubilete for calling his thread idiotic, I shouldn't have been so judgemental. Now back to the fun...

scubilete wrote:There's Just one problem there, I understand the Raps are doing bad, I understand they have been going thru a lot with injuries, but I see at the moment they have most of those players (that were injured) playing.

A. Williams
A. Davis
M. Peterson
V. Lenard
L. Hunter



Actually they dressed 11 for the first time since January 3rd last game. Before that they had dressed 8 for several games in a row and 3 of those 8 came from the Nbdl. Furthermore, of the five players you mentioned only 2 would be starting under normal conditions. Furthermore this talk of "only" missing their Sg is a little silly considering he's one of the best players in the Nba and that they are also missing a player who was supposed to be the second scoring option (Lamond Murray).

As for the coaching situation, I have heard from my inside sources that a vote was taken a few weeks ago by the ownership group as to whether or not they should fire Wilkins. Apparently he barely escaped getting the axe. However it is almost 100% sure that he will be fired once this season ends and that the raps will strongly pursue Jeff Van Gundy.
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Postby Wall St. Peon on Wed Jan 22, 2003 9:50 am

TheBob wrote:As for the coaching situation, I have heard from my inside sources that a vote was taken a few weeks ago by the ownership group as to whether or not they should fire Wilkins. Apparently he barely escaped getting the axe. However it is almost 100% sure that he will be fired once this season ends and that the raps will strongly pursue Jeff Van Gundy.


Good. :) Lenny's a great coach, but the Raptors need someone like Van Gundy to teach the team defense and to inspire Carter...
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Postby scubilete on Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:10 am

I'd like to apologize to scubilete for calling his thread idiotic, I shouldn't have been so judgemental.


:) , It's all right, I just want to see everyone's opinion about the subject, Like I said, I don't think they are better, but even if the stats show they are better like happened in the Knicks case, that's just an example of what could happen to the Raps if they get rid of Vince.

Furthermore this talk of "only" missing their Sg is a little silly considering he's one of the best players in the Nba.


I agree, no discussion, it's just that Dan pointed he would like to know how other teams would perform without their main players playing on that position, that's Y I made that comment.

Actually they dressed 11 for the first time since January 3rd last game.


That's great, I hope the Raps start winning some games now.

Tales Wrote
You know what, Clark must have smoken a fatty one when he said that...


Maybe, who knows, lol
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Postby TheBob on Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:02 am

Tales wrote: You know what, Clark must have smoken a fatty one when he said that...


He is known to have a pretty big problem with weed.
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