Jay Williams and other Bulls stuff

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Jay Williams and other Bulls stuff

Postby Andrew on Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:59 pm

Probably of more interest to my fellow Bulls fans, but here goes...

What does everyone think of Jay Williams thus far? He had a few good games at the beginning of the season, recording that triple-double against the Nets among other promising performances, but recently he's been having some lacklustre games, at least in the boxscores. His latest game against New Orleans yielded a line of 3 points (1-5 FG), 2 assists, 2 rebounds and 4 fouls in 27 minutes. His numbers are down slightly from the start of the season, though he's still 4th among all rookies in steals per game (tied for 29th overall).

Do you think he was worth the 2nd overall pick, or should the Bulls perhaps picked Caron Butler and played Rose at PG, or selected another player? Obviously Ming was already taken, but I think Gooden or Butler might have been good choices.

Still, the season's not over, so perhaps Williams can get back to the level of ball he was playing earlier in the season, but Rose and Marshall are playing very well in the meantime (Marshall had 14 points and 12 boards against the Hornets, Rose added 21 points). 14-25 is still a better record than I expected.
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Postby scubilete on Sun Jan 19, 2003 4:14 am

I'm not a bulls fan, never been, but I think the press reporters make things happen there, and of course, they just report those that they want to see. I believe the Bulls got what they wanted, a PG, they could have selected J. Dixon instead of Williams, at the moment Dixon numbers are increasing with the Minutes played, meaning if you give the Minutes Williams has got in Chicago maybe Dixon would have been a better choice. But, like I said, that's what the reporters promote: Oh, let's not forget the son of Mike Dunleavy, he's wonderful, LMAO. Let's see if Bill Walton son does the same thing.

:lol:
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Postby TheBob on Sun Jan 19, 2003 6:26 am

It's still early on, he might need more time to fully ajust to the Nba game. The disturbing part here though is that he was considered one fo the most polished players comming out of the draft.
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Postby scubilete on Sun Jan 19, 2003 9:38 am

The disturbing part here though is that he was considered one fo the most polished players comming out of the draft.


That's just what I meant, together with that Dunleavy, they got those Draft choices bcause of the media but at least Williams average is acceptable. Dunleavy's, I don't know maybe GS should trade him, if the thing is that they have someone in his position already set.
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Postby bballer22 on Sun Jan 19, 2003 11:34 am

i think its too early to say. all these rookies exept for admer kinda have the same game every time.
look at what happend to kweme brown, at the start of the season he was great, now everyone figured out his game, same with yao, but at 7'5 his not that easy to stop.

same with drew goden, wagner and Jay. i dont know what happent to mike dunvly, the guy with the best overall game??~!!

but they all have to learn to ajust their game, i think thats the reason they are not doing as well anymore!
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Postby Andrew on Sun Jan 19, 2003 11:48 am

The disturbing part here though is that he was considered one fo the most polished players comming out of the draft.


Exactly. I remember him being billed as well-developed, and a great leader. If he is leading them, it's not translating into numbers in the boxscores. :?

i think its too early to say. all these rookies exept for admer kinda have the same game every time.
look at what happend to kweme brown, at the start of the season he was great, now everyone figured out his game, same with yao, but at 7'5 his not that easy to stop.


I agree, it's still relatively early days, but given the pre-season hype, he was supposed to have shown more (more consistency, if not greater numbers) than he has. I'm not about to say he was a terrible pick, because he has shown signs of being a good player, but those of us Bulls fan who predicted ROY after that triple-double and those near triple-double games were speaking prematurely.


same with drew goden, wagner and Jay. i dont know what happent to mike dunvly, the guy with the best overall game??~!!


Drew Gooden has been fairly consistent, though his numbers have dipped a little since Hubie Brown moved him to the bench. Dajuan Wagner is also on the bench now, and has had injury problems to contend with as well. Mike Dunleavy is in a bad situation, the Warriors were already loaded at forward with Jamison, Murphy and Fortson, with only so much court time to go around and no one really sure who would play at which forward spot. Since the Warriors settled on Murphy to start and play a lot of minutes alongside Jamison, Dunleavy doesn't get much of an opportunity.
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Postby Andrew on Sun Jan 19, 2003 2:59 pm

The Bulls just lost to the Heat in double OT, again Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall were the top performers. Rose had 30 points and 7 assists, while Marshall had 24 points, 15 rebounds, 4 blocks and 4 steals before fouling out. Jay Williams had 5 points, 4 rebounds and 3 assists in 26 minutes.
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Postby TheBob on Sun Jan 19, 2003 4:26 pm

If Williams is only playing 20 odd minutes a game I guess that means Crawford is taking his minutes. How's he doing?
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Postby Andrew on Sun Jan 19, 2003 4:31 pm

Crawford has been having some good games in the limited time he's getting, he had 15 points, 4 assists and 2 rebounds in 32 minutes against the Heat.
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Postby Clinton on Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:33 am

I think the Williams situation has a lot to do with the transition from the number 1 option to the 3rd or 4th. At Duke he had the ball in his hands a majority of the time. With Rose and Crawford the Bulls have two good ballhandlers, and with Rose , Marshall, Crawford and Chandler they have not got enough shots to go around.
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Postby Andrew on Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:38 am

His playing time has been reduced though, earlier in the season he was playing more than 30 minutes frequently. As it stands today, he's playing just under 30 a game, with many of his recent games being between 20-25 minutes, often without being in foul trouble.
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Postby Clinton on Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:44 am

Crawford playing well is also having a big impact on Jay's play.
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Postby Andrew on Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:50 am

If Crawford was playing the same amount of minutes as Williams, he'd have similar numbers (in fact he'd be averaging 1.7 more ppg). If Williams continues to struggle, perhaps we'll see Cartwright go with Crawford as the starter, though I'd rather see Williams get back into the form he was in November/early December.
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Postby Eugene on Mon Jan 20, 2003 12:37 pm

You know what's interesting, and this has been mentioned already in another post...

Jay Williams plays against Jamal Tinsley in the Rookie Challenge.

The Tin-man has been something of a playground legend before coming into the public's eye just previous to the draft last season.

Jay Williams also has a bit of a street game in him.

Since the Rookie Challenge is really played for entertainment and enjoyment less the pressures of a real game, it may be a great opportunity for Williams to get some confidence back. His best game comes from beating the man off the dribble and creating in the paint, either with his strength and shooting touch or ability to dish off. The Rookie Game is a fine setting for him to get his game back. At the very least, he'll have fun playing in a game, without the frustration.

More to the point...

As I've mentioned in my other post, the Chicago offense which starts and ends in the post, is quite different from the open floor game that Duke used to run. While it is true that Williams has the ball less than he used to -- and when he does have the ball in the open court, he makes great decisions -- the offense simply does not allow Williams to freelance. Williams could flourish in an offense that Rudy Tomjanovich runs (allegedly runs; no one knows if he really has an offensive scheme for Franchise and Cat). Even when he had the triple double against New Jersey, Cartwright told Williams to be aggressive and play his game.

So Jay Williams falling off the pace comes from a combination of things: less playing time, less control over offense, the typical frustration of a rookie learning the league, a whole new offense to learn, a whole new role.

Jay Williams was a leader at Duke because he was the premier player -- in Chicago, despite the lack of talent, he may not even be the best point guard (right now). Such things lead to a lack of confidence, and because he's been spoiled (admittedly more than a little) by success and everyone around him, he's going to have a tough time adjusting. But, I believe that Jay also has a great support system around him, between his parents, old teammates, Coach K (you want anyone for a mentor, it'd be him), so despite the difficulty, Williams will be a success in the league.
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Postby Andrew on Tue Jan 21, 2003 12:42 pm

Jay Williams has been placed on the IL and Rick Brunson has been activated. Brunson played 24 minutes against the Hawks, scoring 12 points (5/7 FG), 7 assists, 3 steals, and 0 turnovers. Crawford replaced Williams in the starting lineup, playing 24 minutes and accumulating 4 points and 6 assists. Rose, Fizer and Marshall also played well.
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Postby Clinton on Tue Jan 21, 2003 1:06 pm

Rose shot very well. He had 37 points on 15 of 21 shooting (7 of 10 threes.)
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Postby EGarrett on Tue Jan 21, 2003 2:46 pm

Keep in mind that his ankle is messed up, limiting his mobility. He's also been playing in the triangle offense...which basically ignores a point guard's playmaking ability.
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Postby Andrew on Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:09 pm

That's true. Hopefully he will be less inhibited and perform better once he is activated again.
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Postby scubilete on Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:17 am

Brunson played 24 minutes against the Hawks, scoring 12 points (5/7 FG), 7 assists, 3 steals, and 0 turnovers.


Terrific :!: , but I doubt he will keep adding those numbers
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Postby air gordon on Wed Jan 22, 2003 8:16 pm

i agree with eugene- the offense the bulls run doesn't fit to williams's strengths. williams did drop his 3x double on the nets on mostly isolations & pick and rolls.

curiously, williams's killer college 3pt jumper has eluded him in the nba. i remember watching duke games where he could step back around nba 3pt range and make them with ease.

it's disappointing to see him struggle even though hefty expectations were put on him early. he's been a winner his whole life and came from a great college program. on a side note, not too many star duke college players become stars in the nba. anybody else notice that?

anyway- williams on the IR at least gives crawford a chance to showcase himself. IMO- he did not lose the starting PG spot to J-will. it was obvious from the start the job was J-will's. Crawford has had some good performances as of late, but also some bad ones. Perhaps crawford will be more comfortable and play better knowing he doesn't have to look over his shoulder and see williams waiting to come in.

another thing.. what's going on with Curry? Cartwright is giving him the fizer treatment, but Curry isn't responding like fizer did. as i see it, Curry has bust written all over him. the kid's confidence is probably very low. geez- something is wrong with the guy- he can't grab more than 1 rebound in 10 minutes of play. the guys is 6'11 285!
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Postby Andrew on Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:19 pm

Terrific , but I doubt he will keep adding those numbers


Rick must be reading this forum, because he's got 15 points on 7/8 FG at halftime against the Magic. :wink:
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Postby air gordon on Thu Jan 23, 2003 8:02 pm

we may have a point guard controversy on our hands if brunson keeps this up
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