Lakers Thread

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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby [Q] on Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:05 am

How much did you get paid to type that?
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:36 am

[Q] wrote:How much did you get paid to type that?


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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby air gordon on Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:11 am

shadowgrin wrote:0.386, surpsingly better than Rubio's then and now.

EDIT: no, it's not, I was looking at % FGA and not FG%. Ball is worse than any of Rubio's seasons except for one with the same %

ouch. have you seen the dunce cap lately? :crazy:
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby NovU on Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:55 pm

hova- wrote:What I dont understand: how the heck was Lonzo Ball so hyped ?! I did not pay attention as I dont follow NCAA a lot but how the hell can a player with a broken jump shot like his be that hyped?

Because despite the broken shooting mechanic he put up unseen level of scoring efficiency. IIRC he averaged about 14.5 ppg-ish with about .600TS% which is crazy good number for a PG. It was said it was due to extremely smart shot selection due to high basketball IQ. In short, he put up much better numbers as a college player than Jason Kidd that drew comparison to Ball.

His NBA transition seems like is gonna be a bumpy ride for the Lakers fans. He's right in the middle of media crosshair. There's gonna be entire ESPN series dedicated to how Lonzo is a bust in upcoming months unless he quits shooting bricks.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby Dee4Three on Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:30 am

He could put up all the good advanced stats he wanted in college, but even before the season started it was being questioned if he could be a productive scorer in the NBA. In fact, most people were talking about him not being able to get his shot off going to his right, or getting his shot off fast enough. Which is why he is shooting under 30% this season. The eye test showed that before he even stepped onto an NBA court.

Could he turn it around? Possibly. I think that he may never be a good one on one scorer, but picking his spots better and playing smarter, he could become a better and more efficient scorer.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby air gordon on Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:05 am

NovU wrote:Because despite the broken shooting mechanic he put up unseen level of scoring efficiency. IIRC he averaged about 14.5 ppg-ish with about .600TS% which is crazy good number for a PG. It was said it was due to extremely smart shot selection due to high basketball IQ. In short, he put up much better numbers as a college player than Jason Kidd that drew comparison to Ball.

His NBA transition seems like is gonna be a bumpy ride for the Lakers fans. He's right in the middle of media crosshair. There's gonna be entire ESPN series dedicated to how Lonzo is a bust in upcoming months unless he quits shooting bricks.

It was amazing he had that college efficiency. Maybe draftexpress still has his shooting data? Or maybe Schmitz brought with him to espn

At least he showed he does have nba range. The fg% around the rim is a bit alarming. I think both should improve as he gains more strength and adjusts to nba talent

Not trying to play excuse maker for him here (ahem) but the lineup he is with lacks shooting/doesn't afford him the spacing
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby shadowgrin on Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:16 am

Calling it now, Ball's gonna end up in his prime with the scoring skillset similar to an old man Jason Kidd, that of a spot-up shooter.

Kidd's bbr page even includes his no J nickname :lol:
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby NovU on Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:14 am

Oops, even better. Lonzo put up .673 TS% coupled with 131.3 ORtg which is out of this world number. (Michael Jordumb's best NBA number were mere .614 TS% 125 ORtg)

So scoring efficiency WAS supposed to be his strength not weakness. Being a rookie is a playable excuse for now but offense efficiency IS EXPECTED TO be bread and butter for his game in his career.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby Sauru on Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:53 am

NovU wrote: (Michael Jordumb's



seriously how old are you?
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby Andrew on Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:44 pm

It comes back to college vs. the NBA. At least 80% of college players aren't going to make it to the NBA, and may not even have a future playing pro ball in other leagues either. There are also plenty of examples of players who excelled at the college level, distinguishing themselves with impressive performances and accolades, who were average players at best or even busts once they got to the NBA.

Simply put, the level of competition is higher, because all those players who didn't have a shot at making the NBA are gone. Instead of 15-20% of the players being (potentially) capable of earning a spot on an NBA roster, 100% of the players in the NBA are capable of it (obviously, since they've already done so). Even if it's on the deep bench, they've been good enough to go pro, and in the NBA at that. They've not only beaten out 80% of the competition that really never had a shot in the first place, but the 20% (give or take) that did.

That means that Ball is now facing opponents who are grown men, many of them bigger, faster, stronger, and more athletic overall than much of the competition he encountered at UCLA. The flaws, shortcomings, and idiosyncrasies of his game can be more easily exploited as a result. With more athletic competition, he can't blow by defenders as easily. Likewise, bigger and more athletic defenders mean that he can't shoot over them as easily with a jumpshot that has low and slow mechanics. Since he has difficulty getting his shot off going to his right, that's going to be in the scouting report, and those tougher defenders than the ones he faced in college are going to force him to go in that direction, where he's uncomfortable and less effective.

All stats need to be looked at in context. What level of competition is it? Obviously not all leagues are equal in that sense, and there's a significant gap as you rise through the amateur levels and into the pros, so success at one level isn't always going to translate to the next. You also have to consider a player's role. Someone who isn't the first option and not a focal point for the defense is probably going to be more efficient, or at least have a better opportunity to do so. Similarly, teammates and offensive systems are significant. A stacked team is going to make things easier for one another, as is an effective system. If you have a star who doesn't have much help, and/or a coach with a questionable playbook, it may be very tough for them to be efficient. Then you have systems that may win a lot of games and even championships, but not really allow players to have great individual numbers compared to others that are just as effective. Some allow both. In short, context matters.

Some of the biggest concerns with Ball's game at the pro level aren't apparent when you look at his stats, either in college or the NBA. When you look at the context though, and some of the specific challenges that he faces, there's an explanation why he's been able to excel at one level, and is currently struggling a bit (at least in some areas, and in terms of efficiency) at the next. After all, someone averaging a huge triple-double very efficiently at the high school level is likely doing so because they're a man among boys, at least physically. Someone doing outstanding things in college is excelling against a field that largely won't be going pro, at least not in the NBA. Those feats are harder to achieve at the NBA level. The players who can keep it going obviously become the stars and all-time greats of the game. Easier said than done, and the ceiling can be lower than expected. Not to be trite and cliche, but it's a whole other ballgame, as we've seen time and time again.

Lonzo probably isn't going to be able to ever match opponents in terms of athleticism, which just means he has to use the advantages he does have (he's reasonably tall for a point guard), and be more savvy. He needs to be able to get his shot off going in either direction. Maybe he needs to work on his mechanics so that he can shoot better under pressure. Getting a little stronger and developing a few reliable and elusive go to moves that work at the pro level can make up for his lack of explosive athleticism. If he can't do that, then he probably will end up being a bust...or at the very least, fall way short of the hype, and have trouble selling shoes for $500.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby [Q] on Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:16 pm

Despite the criticism, he messed around and got a triple double tonight. 50% shooting, 60% in 3s. Looked pretty good defensively with a couple of nice blocks as well
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby Andrew on Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:59 pm

Definitely one of his better outings so far, though it doesn't invalidate the criticism or concerns. Credit where it's due, though.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby Jackal on Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:33 pm

Andrew wrote:Lonzo probably isn't going to be able to ever match opponents in terms of athleticism, which just means he has to use the advantages he does have (he's reasonably tall for a point guard), and be more savvy. He needs to be able to get his shot off going in either direction. Maybe he needs to work on his mechanics so that he can shoot better under pressure. Getting a little stronger and developing a few reliable and elusive go to moves that work at the pro level can make up for his lack of explosive athleticism. If he can't do that, then he probably will end up being a bust...or at the very least, fall way short of the hype, and have trouble selling shoes for $500.


You realize he's a kid, right? You seem to be more irritated about his father than how he's been playing. He plays fine, he's got the potential and for the fact he just turned 20, he's doing just fine. He stunk it up so far shooting and hopefully he can correct that during the season but for the rest he's been fine. He's a willing passer, a good rebounder and does adequately on defense. The notion that he's terrible on defense is because of highlights against Wall and such I would think.

If you didn't buy in to the Big Baller Bullshit you wouldn't have this strong of a reaction. Avoiding all of the noise and just focusing on the kid shows he's very humble and just trying to find his way in a grown mans league. Even Rubio didn't get this shit on in less than 15 games in to the season.

Also try not to take this as me calling you a hater, I'm just saying you're having this strong of a reaction based on your dislike for his fathers loud mouth.

Also, can Lonzo play against Bledsoe for the rest of the season?
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby Andrew on Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:41 pm

I do realise he's a kid. However, he is an NBA player, and one that came in with tremendous expectations, so he's going to be under the microscope the same as his peers. No less a person than Magic Johnson himself has touted him as the face and future of the franchise. Even putting aside his father's antics, there's a lot of hype, and the bar has been set very, very high. To that end, he doesn't get to accept all the glory and adulation when he meets those expectations, and make excuses and deflect all the criticism when he comes up short (or have others do so on his behalf). No one does. Rondo, Rubio, and even players like Jason Kidd and Allen Iverson have been taken to task for their shooting and/or lack of efficiency. It's all fair, especially when the expectations are high and their praises are being sung.

There are some flaws to Lonzo's game, flaws that frankly should be a concern and areas that he should work on. My take is that to turn those weaknesses into strengths, or at least not allow them to be exploited by his opponents, he should work on getting better at shooting and finishing going to his right, continue to sharpen his defensive skills in terms of movement and reading the play, and develop a couple of reliable moves that will be effective even though he's not the most explosive athlete by NBA standards. Watching him play early on, I would say those are the keys to his development, and ultimately how he'll turn things around in terms of being a more efficient scorer, if indeed he can achieve that. There's obviously plenty of time for him to do so.

The other point of my post was to address NovU's question of why he's not posting the same efficient stats as in college. The concise version of that is that he's facing tougher and more athletic competition, which makes it harder for him to do the things he's accustomed to doing at lower levels of the game, and so his shooting and efficiency is not as high as it was at UCLA. It shouldn't be a surprise. Aside from specific aspects of his game that are potentially problematic, a lot of players have to make that adjustment. Many don't, but the best players, the ones destined to be stars, manage to do so. He's not alone in that regard, and the reasons aren't mysterious or unprecedented.

I don't know that Lonzo can be that efficient in the NBA but I'm not saying he can't turn things around in that regard and be much more efficient and reliable shooting the ball, if he puts in the work. If nothing else, it probably wasn't fair to expect him to be that efficient at the NBA level, especially right away. While I still think it's fair to criticise things like an inability to get his shot off going to the right - that is definitely something to work on - I would actually give him a pass in terms of not being able to replicate extremely high efficiency numbers at the NBA level, especially in his first season. Let's not forget that LeBron shot 41.7% from the field in his rookie year, and didn't crack 50% until his seventh season. LeBron's efficiency came when his offensive game became more than just athleticism (and when he had better teammates around him).

Obviously a lot of eyes are on Ball, for better or worse, and the Lakers are investing a lot of hope in him. He's a talking point, and to that end, I wanted to give my take after watching him play a few games. Like I said, if he's going to get hype and praise when he succeeds, it's only fair to point out his shortcomings and areas where he could improve, as well. A dislike of his father's antics doesn't invalidate that criticism any more than being a Lakers fan invalidates a defense of him, but I've given my hot take, so I'll leave it at that.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby NovU on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:19 pm

I found Lonzo very a very likable character. Kid's humble, soft spoken, team oriented, hard working, and very media shy. It sucks to see people/media attacking such a personnel while actual psychopathic dickheads are glorified these days. When you turn on TV, all talks you hear about is Lonzo's broken shot, it is no surprise how Lakers fans are tired of hearing it. Perhaps I shouldn't have asked about it either.

Andrew wrote:The other point of my post was to address NovU's question of why he's not posting the same efficient stats as in college.

I do realize NBA's elevated competition is the cause and transition often does not work out even with work ethic and competitive spirit or all that kinds of bullshit. But was simply answering hova's why he's so overhyped question.

To answer the "overhyped" question again, I read somewhere that his college numbers were historically good like .673 TS% is unheard of. So it's hard to say he was overhyped. He was one of the best college players ever in terms of efficiency and all around game.

BTW it's good to see him playing well, broken the LBJ's record by 5 days for youngest player to ever post triple double. It's almost hard to believe 19pts/12reb/13ast/3stl/4blk numbers came from a rookie. Superstar potential is definitely there unless he goes MCW route, which I doubt. MCW was also older by couple years in his rookie season.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby air gordon on Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:50 am

Andrew wrote: If nothing else, it probably wasn't fair to expect him to be that efficient at the NBA level, especially right away. While I still think it's fair to criticise things like an inability to get his shot off going to the right - that is definitely something to work on - I would actually give him a pass in terms of not being able to replicate extremely high efficiency numbers at the NBA level, especially in his first season

was anyone really expecting him to match it? the numbers being so low now is the issue.

Let's not forget that LeBron shot 41.7% from the field in his rookie year, and didn't crack 50% until his seventh season. LeBron's efficiency came when his offensive game became more than just athleticism

I don’t think James is a good example and fg% in only one aspect of efficiency. James came into the league at a younger age and is more athletic to say the least. He could finish at the rim and went to the free throw line. Not to kick a dead horse but Ball at this point is dreadful at those aspects

All stats need to be looked at in context. What level of competition is it? Obviously not all leagues are equal in that sense, and there's a significant gap as you rise through the amateur levels and into the pros, so success at one level isn't always going to translate to the next. You also have to consider a player's role. Someone who isn't the first option and not a focal point for the defense is probably going to be more efficient, or at least have a better opportunity to do so. Similarly, teammates and offensive systems are significant. A stacked team is going to make things easier for one another, as is an effective system. If you have a star who doesn't have much help, and/or a coach with a questionable playbook, it may be very tough for them to be efficient. Then you have systems that may win a lot of games and even championships, but not really allow players to have great individual numbers compared to others that are just as effective. Some allow both. In short, context matters

What “context” does Lonzo Ball play in now? Does the current system help or hinder his game?

Jackal wrote: Even Rubio didn't get this shit on in less than 15 games in to the season.

And Rubio still stinks. Still under >40fg%g and >30% 3pt% smh

NovU wrote:I do realize NBA's elevated competition is the cause and transition often does not work out even with work ethic and competitive spirit or all that kinds of bullshit

interestingly enough on the other side of the country a rookie who came in with more criticisms in his game, Ben Simmons, is doing very well.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby Andrew on Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:09 am

air gordon wrote:What “context” does Lonzo Ball play in now? Does the current system help or hinder his game?


The NBA, as opposed to the NCAA.

I think Walton's a good coach. That potentially bodes very well for Ball's future.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby NovU on Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:24 am

air gordon wrote:interestingly enough on the other side of the country a rookie who came in with more criticisms in his game, Ben Simmons, is doing very well.

Fair point although I think age and year of NBA training matter.



Another issues with Lonzo seems to be freethrow shooting. He might wanna bring % up to .700 at the very least. In college, he shot .673% and now he's shooting .500%.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby Andrew on Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:35 am

If Andre Drummond can drastically improve his free throw shooting, there's hope for everyone.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby air gordon on Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:00 am

NovU wrote:
air gordon wrote:interestingly enough on the other side of the country a rookie who came in with more criticisms in his game, Ben Simmons, is doing very well.

Fair point although I think age and year of NBA training matter.

good call. even with the extra time i thought it was Simmons who would struggle due to the concerns on what nba position he would play, no shot, attitude instead of Ball and his "winner" status, pure pg skills, 3pt shooting.

WOJ reporting Randle "unlikely" to have a future with LA. thoughts, Lakers fans?
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby [Q] on Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:26 am

I never understood the criticism of Simmons, although I didn't watch his games in college. He seemed like a good all around player that would translate to the NBA.

Randle news was not surprising, as I earlier stated that he's going to be packaged in a deal to dump Deng or will be lost in the pursuit of two max FAs due to his large cap hold. Very sad considering his turnaround and improvement this year. Maybe someone will take Nance instead in a deal for deng
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby air gordon on Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:34 am

good ol' coach nick did post a vid on Ben Simmons. i think its rather amazing he can put up these numbers with a poor outside shot & and confusion on what hand to finish with.


[Q] wrote:Randle news was not surprising, as I earlier stated that he's going to be packaged in a deal to dump Deng or will be lost in the pursuit of two max FAs due to his large cap hold. Very sad considering his turnaround and improvement this year. Maybe someone will take Nance instead in a deal for deng

still hold the opinion of the Mozgov & Deng signings weren't that bad? ;)

i'd have to agree skinny Randle has looked good in his bench role. he would be worth the cap hold on the salary cap IMO
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby shadowgrin on Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:16 am

To bring up that discussion from another thread what Simmons is doing right now shows that even Magic can thrive today in the league.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby [Q] on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:14 am

The signings themselves were not bad at the time. Especially with the way the Lakers were getting burned by free agents not wanting to go there. Had they been shorter contracts they would've been fine but good god I don't know why you'd want to lock those guys up for so long. Bitch Kupchak could've seen the writing was on the wall and used the scorched earth method to screw the Lakers on his way out
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby air gordon on Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:18 am

darn it, shadow. get ready for "it was the best of times. it was the worst of times."

you see that rolling sky hookish shot with Simmons off hand?
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