Lakers Thread

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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby benji on Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:44 am

hova- wrote:I dont really understand why a coach comes in and refuses to play the kind of game he has the players for. Does this make sense? Did the best coaches in history use their roster the right way or force it into their system? (this is not a retorical question. Maybe some of you have an answer for me)

And what's the "kind of game" the Lakers have players for?

Almost all coaches always force players into their system.
hova- wrote:Well I aint no Lakers fan, so there is no reason to cry for me. Youre statin the obvious with Gasol since he has gotten a step slower and was never a good one on one defender. That does not mean he should play C so, but rather he should guard the weaker of the two opponent big men. (In this case Jordan, who might be athletic but does not have the footwork to go past Gasol).

And then you pull Dwight away from the basket when he has to chase Griffin.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby Andrew on Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:32 am

hova- wrote:I dont really understand why a coach comes in and refuses to play the kind of game he has the players for. Does this make sense? Did the best coaches in history use their roster the right way or force it into their system? (this is not a retorical question. Maybe some of you have an answer for me)


As benji said, that's what most coaches do. You could say Phil Jackson "forced" the triangle onto his teams, but it was obviously successful. What matters is whether or not a system can be adapted to the players on the roster, or they can adapt to it. That's the problem with D'Antoni's offense: it has very specific demands of the roster, its effectiveness is greatly diminished when those demands aren't met and there's not much of a Plan B.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby Jackal on Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:18 am

air gordon wrote:Im not talking about dunks

The fact remains that Griffin was easily getting past gasol on the wing and beating him down the court on transition. This is just more evidence that gasol is better suited to play center at this stage of his career.

It's ok if you cry


You don't know what you're talking about, Dwight was beaten just as easily by Griffin. The Lakers just aren't good defensively, benching Gasol doesn't fix that. Jamison nor Hill can guard him either & Gasol at least has the tools to be effective on the offensive end.

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What are you? 5? Grow up.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby Bruce on Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:39 pm

Here is an article about Jordan calling the triangle offense a "white man's offense". So sometimes it takes time for a team to properly adopt a system. But in the Lakers case, With the age of Bryant, Gasol, Nash and World Peace, then Howard's contract situation, they are not in a position to say, maybe we will win one in the next three years.

Right now, the best thing the Lakers can do, is slow down the game, and grind down on opposing teams both ways. For me this is D'Antoni's fault for not adopting with his personnel at hand. Gasol has been slow on defense whether it was D'Antoni's system, Mike Brown or even in Jackson's system. He is just not up to par with many NBA forwards in terms of mobility, simple as that. If a trade props up that will enable the Lakers to have a rotation that will let them throw 3 athletic PFs albeit with less offensive skill, playing shorter minutes but then play with more speed and energy, I think this will help the Lakers from making this season a complete waste.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby benji on Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:40 pm

How exactly are the Lakers supposed to grind down teams on the offensive end? Kobe and Dwight aren't going to give up their shots to let Gasol take twenty-five shots a game in the post.

The real issue continues to be Gasol's mid-range shot disappearing. Two years ago at 3-9/10-15/10-23 he took 4.1/2.3/2.8 and shot 43/43/49. This season so far he's taking 2.0/0.8/4.3 at 26/22/39.

If he's not making those, then the pick and roll won't work. Jamison has seen a similar evaporation in his mid-range game. Through 25 games he hadn't made a single shot from 10-15 feet.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby JBoom_LALALAND on Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:19 pm

Disappointment continues as Kobe vs. Howard comes up now. Ahh. Making the playoffs is still a long shot, but 49 games to do it. :crazyeyes:
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby NovU on Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:43 pm

Lakers' Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard feuding in LA

A league source told the Daily News that the Lakers stars got into a heated exchange following a New Year’s Day loss to the 76ers, and Bryant went for a low blow – referencing and agreeing with Shaquille O’Neal’s criticisms of Howard being soft.

Howard was restrained from going at his teammate, according to the source, and there have been rumblings from the center’s camp that he’s been unhappy with Bryant since earlier in the season.

Three days after the altercation, following a disheartening loss to the Clippers, Howard complained about the lack of chemistry on the Lakers. It was a comment seemingly directed at Bryant, who is averaging a league-high 22 shots despite playing with three potential Hall of Famers.

The Mike D’Antoni-coached Lakers fell to 15-18 after losing at home to the Denver Nuggets, 112-105, Sunday night despite Howard’s 26 rebounds. Bryant led L.A. with 29 points but took 26 shots.

“Look at the difference between our team and (the Clippers),” Howard said. “They just play together. They share the ball. Everybody’s excited when something happens.”

“(Chemistry) is something we have to do to get better,” Howard told reporters in L.A. “We have to play like we like each other. Even if we don’t want to be friends off the court, whatever that may be, when we step in between the lines or we step in the locker room or the gym, we have to respect each other and what we bring to the table.”

......

Prior to the trade that sent Howard to Los Angeles, Bryant reportedly told Howard he’d be the third offensive option if traded to the Lakers. Following the New Year’s Day loss to the 76ers, Bryant was ticked off at Howard and ticked off in front of the media.

“Cause we’re old as s---,” the 34-year-old told reporters, explaining the Lakers’ struggles. “What do you want? We just got to figure out how to play when we don’t have that energy.”

This was somewhat forseeable. Howard never liked Kobe's attitude even before he became the Lakers. He's fed up, pretty much.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby Andrew on Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:01 pm

Tough week coming up with the Rockets, Spurs and Thunder. Not exactly what they needed, though also an opportunity for some big wins to get themselves back on track.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby NovU on Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:09 pm

Here's another article on Kobe vs Howard.

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/stor ... each-other

Kobe talks about his days w/ Shaq...
One of them has to sacrifice. I sacrificed quite a bit with individual numbers and MVPs and NBA Finals and all this other stuff

lol
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby hova- on Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:34 pm

benji wrote:
hova- wrote:I dont really understand why a coach comes in and refuses to play the kind of game he has the players for. Does this make sense? Did the best coaches in history use their roster the right way or force it into their system? (this is not a retorical question. Maybe some of you have an answer for me)

And what's the "kind of game" the Lakers have players for?

Almost all coaches always force players into their system.
hova- wrote:Well I aint no Lakers fan, so there is no reason to cry for me. Youre statin the obvious with Gasol since he has gotten a step slower and was never a good one on one defender. That does not mean he should play C so, but rather he should guard the weaker of the two opponent big men. (In this case Jordan, who might be athletic but does not have the footwork to go past Gasol).

And then you pull Dwight away from the basket when he has to chase Griffin.



For your first point. I don't know really what kind of game they should play. But more pick&roll with Howard and Nash would maybe be a good idea. As far as I know Howard has very good percentages when playing the p&r and Steve Nash is a p&r maestro. Problem would be: Kobe is not as much involved on offense as he would like to.
Although this could be a fanboy's opinion I think Rick Carisle is a coach who has the ability to find way to use the strenghts of his players without simply putting them into a scheme. Same goes for Gregg Popovich, who knows how to involve role players on offense and hide bad defenders. Actually it's just like Bill Simmons says: there are only a handful great coaches in the NBA and the others simply rely on the talent of their roster.

About guarding Griffin: I think it has been exagerrated in this thread anyway. Gasol can guard Griffin, but BG will always find a chance to blow by you for the dunk. It's not like BG put up 30+ points or something.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby air gordon on Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:51 am

Jackal wrote: you don't know what you're talking about, Dwight was beaten just as easily by Griffin. The Lakers just aren't good defensively, benching Gasol doesn't fix that. Jamison nor Hill can guard him either & Gasol at least has the tools to be effective on the offensive end.

"It's ok if you cry"

What are you? 5? Grow up.

i didn't suggest Howard, who plays center, to guard opposing PF's. that's Gasol's job since he is the PF.

as i have mentioned several times in this thread (and several times you have not replied to it)- Gasol is better suited to play center at this stage of his career. and now benji graced us with some stats on the guy who "at least has the tools to be effective" (backing off your thesis of him being more dominant already??!!).

Lakers made their run with Gasol on the bench. Hill was having a good game until he got hurt. Pau wasn't going back into the game. Just so happened Howard fouled out...

About guarding Griffin: I think it has been exagerrated in this thread anyway. Gasol can guard Griffin, but BG will always find a chance to blow by you for the dunk. It's not like BG put up 30+ points or something.

did you see the game? He probably goes for 30+ points if he doesn't get in foul trouble. did you see Griffin take it to the basket easily on Gasol on several occasions in the first few minutes of the 1st qtr??
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby benji on Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:24 am

hova- wrote:For your first point. I don't know really what kind of game they should play. But more pick&roll with Howard and Nash would maybe be a good idea. As far as I know Howard has very good percentages when playing the p&r and Steve Nash is a p&r maestro. Problem would be: Kobe is not as much involved on offense as he would like to.

D'Antoni's entire offense is pick and roll based. The problem with Howard is that he can only roll to the basket. And that's if he can catch the pass. Gasol on the other hand can pop the mid-range jumper. At least theoretically. As seen above that hasn't been happening this year. Gasol also has the skills to make another pass, ideally including a lot to Howard under the hoop once the defense reacts poorly to the pick and roll.

And that problem, as seen in the story above, is the real reason none of this is working. There's a $28 million force that demands and sucks in at least a third of possessions under any circumstances. (And then uses most of those to fire up contested 15+ footers.)
Same goes for Gregg Popovich, who knows how to involve role players on offense and hide bad defenders.

Which he does by forcing them into his scheme.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby Jackal on Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:46 am

How anal do you have to be if you're going to nitpick about C guarding C and PF guarding PF. Different positions guard opposing teams' different positions; you just feel so strongly about labeling them C/PF instead of big1/big2 you're acting as if each "position" guards the opposing teams "position". Like how dare Lebron guard Rose?! He's a SF and should only guard Luol Deng.

And get your head out of your ass, I'm saying the guy should get more touches in the post, Ben is talking about a mid-range shot. Are you really that dense?
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby Andrew on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:06 am

Jackal wrote:Like how dare Lebron guard Rose?! He's a SF and should only guard Luol Deng.


Works for me. :shifty:
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby air gordon on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:56 am

You are missing the point, friend. Being in denial is a very powerful thing...

Lebron guards Rose because he can. James is versatile enough to do that. Yeah I know Pf/C defensive assignments can be interchangeable. They do it in Chicago. Boozer will guard the opposition’s bigger guy and Noah takes the more mobile guy if you will.

But with the Lakers that is not the case. 3 time DPOY Dwight Howard has no business chasing PF’s on the perimeter. Gasol is forced to guard the other team’s quicker/perimeter shooting PF.

Again I will mention that “stretch” 4’s/5’s are the new trend. We all know that Gasol is not suited to guard these types of players.

And again as I said when Howard was acquired- it is not a good fit for Gasol on offense. His greatest advantage was being able to face up on big guys. Now you no longer have the slow, fat guy guarding Gasol. You have him being guarded by these uber athletic PF’s that are mostly quicker/some stronger than him. And there's no spacing because Howard is around the basket.

If you want to run post up’s for Gasol- where do you put Howard? Don’t embarrass yourself again and say “in the post”.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby benji on Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:42 am

Well, the good news is now neither one will screw up the team:
EL SEGUNDO, Calif. -- If the Los Angeles Lakers are going to crawl out of the hole they've dug for themselves with their current three-game losing streak, they'll have to do it without their All-Star big men -- center Dwight Howard and forward Pau Gasol -- who are both out indefinitely with injuries, the team announced Monday.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby Bruce on Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:35 pm

benji wrote:Well, the good news is now neither one will screw up the team:
EL SEGUNDO, Calif. -- If the Los Angeles Lakers are going to crawl out of the hole they've dug for themselves with their current three-game losing streak, they'll have to do it without their All-Star big men -- center Dwight Howard and forward Pau Gasol -- who are both out indefinitely with injuries, the team announced Monday.


More good news, Hill is also out with a hip injury.

Darius Johnson-Odom was waived, perhaps the lakers are planning to pick up a player for a 10 day contract. Congratulations to Kobe, it's the 2005-06 season for him once again. Time to shoot like there's no tomorrow.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby shadowgrin on Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:10 pm

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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby hova- on Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:39 pm

air gordon wrote:
Again I will mention that “stretch” 4’s/5’s are the new trend. We all know that Gasol is not suited to guard these types of players.


It's been at least five years since this trend came up in the basketball "expert's" minds and another five years when it has really come up. And saying Griffin is a stretch four is not right at all. You can leave him open outside if you want to because his shot is horrible. He might stretch the floor by going for the screen but he cannot shoot the jumper afterwards.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby graybakflip on Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:30 am

Really it's difficult to play with a team with 3 alpha dogs on their previous teams just last season. And about their PnR offense, IMHO I do really think it's better to run it with nash+gasol than nash+dwight(ask kobe). Dwight can't dribble or shoot at mid range nor shoot the FT's, unlike pau where he either can pick n pop or PnR. Clearly dwight has lost a bit on his athleticism and even before in orlando he has a very limited offense but his usage rate was high so he had 20+/10+ stats there. Here at kobe's team, he's used as a "Tyson Chandler" role(just as I said before and main reason he didn't want LA, you can add to that the expectations). Really they do made a mistake on choosing D' Antoni over PJax, Antoni needs fast, spot-up shooters, young players for his uptempo game which the LA do needs at this point. I guess they need to shake some things up.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby shadowgrin on Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:41 am

graybakflip wrote:Really it's difficult to play with a team with 3 alpha dogs on their previous teams just last season.

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Ok so two dogs and an alpha ostrich.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby benji on Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:06 am

LeBron looks so uncomfortable.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby shadowgrin on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:49 am

Was probably worried that he might choke in the celebration.
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby [Q] on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:53 am

last time i heard about a torn labrum, jameer nelson missed half the season and barley made it back for the finals and still not 100%. is dwight done for the season?
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Re: Lakers Thread

Postby Andrew on Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:49 am

They're claiming he's back in a week, last I read.
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