Lakers Thread

[air gordon]

Fine, I'll concede your last point.

But that Lakers team that the Spurs took out...

They had Kobe (who was exhausted from carrying that team all season, and you cannot deny that in 2003, he was the best player on that team), and Shaq, who was injured and never bothered to get back in shape. They also had Rick Fox, limited to playing spot minutes, Devean George, still offensively challenged, Robert Horry who went like 2 for 439 from three, and Derek Fisher. Their back up centers were Samaki Walker and Mark Madsen. Yeah, they had the Kobe and Shaq and nobody else.

And the point I was making is that put Kobe on that Spurs team, and in most cases (not all), they'll be leading by seven come fourth quarter. Obviously it won't be the same because the Spurs are built around Duncan, but generally speaking.

Oh, and I hope I didn't come off sounding like I thought Duncan was a bad player or anything. I'm convinced he is one of the top 3 power forwards of all-time. And certainly, his performance in Game 6 in the 2003 Finals is a legitimate Pantheon level game. I'm just making an argument for Kobe, not necessarily against Duncan.

and duncan was exhausted carrying that spurs roster, which was less talented. i'll leave this open to debate but can you seriously say bryant had it worse playing with shaq & co. then that roster duncan won with. interested or not interested, in shape or not, shaq was one of the top players then. having one of the best players, if not the best, and pairing him with one of the top 3 players at his position works wonders. so a statman once told me

oh, and mcgrady best. not kobe. don't make the statsman make an apperance

[Eugene]

I wasn't referring specifically to point guards, but even then, I know with the Knicks, they had Walt Frazier and Earl Monroe. The Celtics started Dennis Johnson (who won Finals MVP during one of those championships), and later started Danny Ainge. Sixers had Erving (and this is more what I meant, like big guards and wings, rather than point guards specifically), and they also had Mo Cheeks and Andrew Toney. The 94 Rockets had Clyde (again, a guard/wing) as well as Kenny Smith AND Sam Cassell. The Trailblazers and the Bullets are your best examples, but we can't count the other ones.

And as far as Rodman and Horace Grant are concerned, I mean, I'll grant that the early Bulls had good bigs, but the later Bulls, the ones I was talking about, were a lot thinner up front, between Longley and Rodman and especially the last two seasons when Rodman was bordering more on distraction than an asset.

Finally, I think you underestimate all the things Kobe Bryant brought to the table for those 3 championship teams. Say what you will, but the entire team got progressively worse after 2000 (especially since Kupchak stopped doing anything productive) and the only player who improved year to year was Kobe. And don't tell me about Kobe being selfish. The Lakers won because of Kobe Bryant, not in spite of him, and I'm stating that Kobe played as big a role as Shaq did in the last two championships. The best example I can give is when Kobe ripped the Spurs apart 2001 and again in 2002. I couldn't find the box scores, but I know Kobe killed them. That's just part of the bigger picture, but the point is, Kobe played as big a role as Shaq did. At the least, bigger role than most give him credit for.

Eugene

[Jackal]

I think the point Magius is trying to make is that that "bigger role" could've been filled by McGrady whereas Shaq's role couldn't be filled by anyone.

Maybe that's what he means, I can't be sure.

[magius]

yup, pretty much. deja vu, huh?

the following are shaq's playoff averages during the champioship playoffs:
2000: 30.7 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.1 apg
2001: 30.4 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.2
2002: 28.5 ppg, 12.6 rpg, 2.8 apg.

in 2000 kobes stats were 21.1 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 4.5 apg
2001 kobe had 29.4 ppg, 7.3rpg, 6.1 apg
2002 kobe had 26.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4.6 apg

they were both important, do doubt, but not even close to equally. all three championship team lakers were undoubtebly shaqs teams. this is not like the 1980 lakers where kareem and magic were questionable equals, how do i know? kareem and magic split final mvps. three years in a row, it was saw fitting that shag got that award every time. its so clear who was the more important of the two that kobe didnt even get one out of pure pity. they would not have made it without shaq because shaq makes the game easy, why do you think mj said he'd still be playing today if he had a big man like that. when wing players dont have a huge big in the middle detracting post defense it is so much easier to force them outside..... it wouldnt be smart for bowen to draw his oppponent into duncan and force duncan to help leaving shaq open now would it? and also whoever is guarding shaq needs to stick with him religoiusly because if they dont box him out well he will get that offensive rebound and he will punish you, thus goodbye weakside help if you overload. of course kobe had to put up big numbers, anything else would be dissapointing, a player of his calibre will eventually deliver when the opponent doesn't have the luxury of double and triple teaming him.

i guess you're right that most champions have had a decent guard in one way or another, but what i wonder is would that guard be remembered if he hadnt had the chance to play with the big man he did. there have been a lot of talented guards to be forgotten through history, but most big men are remembered because of their rarity and because most of the time they deliver. i think there have been many more guards of a certain talent level throughout history then there have been big men of that same calibre.

[air gordon]

And as far as Rodman and Horace Grant are concerned, I mean, I'll grant that the early Bulls had good bigs, but the later Bulls, the ones I was talking about, were a lot thinner up front, between Longley and Rodman and especially the last two seasons when Rodman was bordering more on distraction than an asset.
Eugene

do you know what you're talking about? rodman was a distraction to the media and opponents, not to the bulls. in the last year of the bulls championship run, pippen missed almost half the season. rodman was amongst the group of players that picked up the slack in pip's absence. he played in 80 games, his highest total since '92

btw-

who's respsonsible for malone choking?
a. malone
b. rodman
c. both

[J@3]

d. mexican girls

[Fresh8]

Lakers lost in OT to the Nets. Lamar Odom was 1 for 11 and Kobe scored only 1 point in OT. So who's to blame for this loss?

Kobe, Lamar or Kidd

Anyways... I am really crossing my fingers for Kwame Brown to return in good shape and looking more accustomed to the offence. Right now, it looks like nothing is really working cause Kobe can only do so much...

[Isaiah]

Lamar sucks..................I hope he gets traded...he really needs to improve his jumpshot.

Kobe on the other hand is playing out of this world!

Anyways... I am really crossing my fingers for Kwame Brown to return in good shape and looking more accustomed to the offence. Right now, it looks like nothing is really working cause Kobe can only do so much...

yea kwame needs to show his full potential

[Kbryant8]

Lakers lost in OT to the Nets. Lamar Odom was 1 for 11 and Kobe scored only 1 point in OT. So who's to blame for this loss?

Kobe, Lamar or Kidd

Anyways... I am really crossing my fingers for Kwame Brown to return in good shape and looking more accustomed to the offence. Right now, it looks like nothing is really working cause Kobe can only do so much...

Kobe did what he suposed to do.
46 pts isn`t a bad score.
So lamar sucked

[Andrew]

He might have scored 46, but it took him 36 shots to do it, just as he's scoring over 30 ppg this year but it's taking him 29 shots to do it. It's going to work some of the time but at the end of the day he's going to have to sacrifice a few of those shots so guys like Odom can be more effective. But to be fair, when Odom's shooting 1/11 Kobe has to do something.

I still think the Lakers would have been better off keeping Butler rather than Odom. As a finisher, he was much more effective alongside Kobe than Odom, who in contrast likes to have the ball in his hands a lot more often...whcih isn't going to happen unless you're the focal point of the offense, and since Kobe's the superior offensive player that's going to be him.

The Lakers made the choice to abruptly end their previous era and rebuild with Kobe as the undisputed leader of the team. He needs to have players that can play alongside him and be effective because he's not likely to change his style of play too much, save for taking a few less shots per game to accomodate more offensively capable teammates.

[Isaiah]

yea i agree that butler would have been better than Odom

[Fenix]

Odom is going to be traded (Rashard Lewis?) if he doesn't show progress till ASG. And what was with Smush yesterday? I think he might have been smoking with Odom lately.

[Cloudy]

At least their record right now is better than Rockets.
Kwame Brown, he came to LA like he's gonna have a breakout season... But not much yet... sigh
Go Lakers! Go Rockets!

[bludgeon]

It seems to me that Kobe is really forcing too many shots this year or two...or three?

[John WB]

At least their record right now is better than Rockets.
Kwame Brown, he came to LA like he's gonna have a breakout season... But not much yet... sigh
Go Lakers! Go Rockets!

But the Rockets are missing T-Mac. Lakers have Kobe.

[Fresh8]

Odom just isn't performing well. Whether, he's out of form or just struggling playing the new role he's been given is open to discussion. But I see one alternative that the Lakers, I believe should try and that is moving Odom back into the post and using Walton in his point forward role. Maybe that could be a bit better?

Kobe really needs others to step up. As Andrew and others have said, 30+ shots isn't very impressive, sure he scores 46 points but that's not too impressive if your team loses as well. Where is the help?

I have no idea what's happened to McKie... and Odom... and Kwame...
I'm still crossing my fingers that Kwame's time out on the bench can work wonders with him and George can come back as an effective sixth man. And maybe Jax can put these guys on the floor:

C: Kwame
PF: Lamar
SF: Walton
SG: Kobe
PG: Smush

[air gordon]

its takes time to learn the triangle for a lot of players. and maybe some players don't mesh well with bryant

[kingtrobe807]

hey your guys hear about the rumor that boozer might be commin to lakers!!!!

If this does happen this could open up the frontcoart a bit and give lakers more of a deep bench!!!!

[BiGrEd819]

lamar's offense is limited to 10ft jumpers from the basket, which are really hard to get.......kobe needs a crap load of help from the whole team cuz no one could knock down the open shots besides him......kwame's never gona hav a break out year because he shows no atheleticism what so ever with his lil 3inch hops.....and phil jackson cant adjust his strategies according to the talents of the whole team. he keeps forcing the triangle offense and the only players who are benefiting from the triangle offense at a consistent basis is kobe.

i really love the lakers and i really hope they change up their roster... if they think this team is going to get a whole lot better in time theyre wrong.

[Carmo]

He might have scored 46, but it took him 36 shots to do it, just as he's scoring over 30 ppg this year but it's taking him 29 shots to do it. It's going to work some of the time but at the end of the day he's going to have to sacrifice a few of those shots so guys like Odom can be more effective.

It isn't like Kobe was just jacking up shots from everywhere the whole game. He had 7 points in the first half (demonstrating to me that he probably did not shoot the ball as much). His team was down 18. Then he starts shooting more and scores 39 in the second half. Only Brian Cook scored double digits besides Kobe.....it's all Kobe can do when the others are playing so badly.

[Fresh8]

its takes time to learn the triangle for a lot of players. and maybe some players don't mesh well with bryant

- yeh I notice that it will take time. But since there is time, experimenting wouldn't hurt.

[air gordon]

the triangle is the system phil jackson runs. the players should use the time to learn it

lamar's offense is limited to 10ft jumpers from the basket, which are really hard to get.......kobe needs a crap load of help from the whole team cuz no one could knock down the open shots besides him......kwame's never gona hav a break out year because he shows no atheleticism what so ever with his lil 3inch hops.....and phil jackson cant adjust his strategies according to the talents of the whole team. he keeps forcing the triangle offense and the only players who are benefiting from the triangle offense at a consistent basis is kobe.

i really love the lakers and i really hope they change up their roster... if they think this team is going to get a whole lot better in time theyre wrong.

thanks for the good laugh

[Isaiah]

hey your guys hear about the rumor that boozer might be commin to lakers!!!!

If this does happen this could open up the frontcoart a bit and give lakers more of a deep bench!!!!

yea but who will they give away? plus this wil only benefit the Lakers if Boozer is able to stay healthy

and Kobe does need a lot of help. whenever (if ever) Kobe's on the bench its supposed to be the time for the other players to contribute with Lamar being the focal point of the offense

[Andrew]

He might have scored 46, but it took him 36 shots to do it, just as he's scoring over 30 ppg this year but it's taking him 29 shots to do it. It's going to work some of the time but at the end of the day he's going to have to sacrifice a few of those shots so guys like Odom can be more effective.

It isn't like Kobe was just jacking up shots from everywhere the whole game. He had 7 points in the first half (demonstrating to me that he probably did not shoot the ball as much). His team was down 18. Then he starts shooting more and scores 39 in the second half. Only Brian Cook scored double digits besides Kobe.....it's all Kobe can do when the others are playing so badly.

Like I said, it's understandable considering how Odom and the rest of the team weren't doing much to help and it did get them back in the game, but that strategy isn't going to work too often. As it turned out, it didn't help them enough in the game against the Nets. Ultimately I don't believe the Lakers will be very successful with Kobe taking 30 shots per game, even if there are situations that justify or merit it.

[Fresh8]

The only trade bait the Lakers have are the expiring contracts of Geroge and Medvedenko (I htink he's expiring?) and Lamar Odom... And Lamar is definitely staying in LaLa land.