Chicago Bulls Thread

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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby Valor on Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:39 pm

air gordon wrote:the boys at draftexpress seem to know their stuff. euro talent gets overlooked? while we're generalizing, the knicks picked smokin frank. the kings a few years picked papi no longer in the league opoulus at #12.

the lavine situation is interesting. he didn't do enough (understandingly coming off the injury) to dispel the questions/knocks on his game. the bulls can and mostly likely match what he can get in the open market. still just 23yrs old

What, you consider Frank Ntilikina a bust already? Bit premature don't you think? Overlooked doesn't mean they don't get drafted, overlook means they are undervalued, underappreciated, and gets nowhere close to the amount of hype that American prospects get. If you don't think that's the case you obviously haven't been paying attention over the years. You wanna talk about busts like Papagiannis (13th pick, who, btw, is still in the league with the Blazers), how about these guys?

Dirk - 1998, 9th pick. Michael Olowokandi went first overall. Raef LaFrentz went third. Robert Traylor went 6th.
Parker - 2001, 28th pick. Kwame Brown went first overall. We picked Eddy Curry 4th.
Manu - 1999, 57th pick. Enough said
Pau - 2001, 3rd pick. (They picked Kwame Brown over this guy, are you kidding me.)
Giannis - 2013, 15th pick. Anthony fucking Bennett went first. Otto Porter, Cody Zeller, Alex Len, Ben McLemore, Trey fucking Burke, Shabazz Muhammad also went ahead of Giannis.
Porzingis - 2015, 4th pick. D'Angelo Russell and Jahili Okafor ahead of him, and the fans booed the shit out of him on draft night, media went ham on the Knicks afterwards.
Toni Kukoc - 1990, 29th pick. Literally all 28 picks ahead of him were American, and he had a better career than every one of them aside from Gary Payton.
Jokic - 2014, 41st pick. Top 5-10 were mostly decent picks but how did he fall to second round?
Rudy Gobert - 2013, 27th pick. Again, Anthony Bennett went first overall. Gobert was raw as hell but that height, length and athleticism should've gotten a look in late lottery/mid first round at least. If he was local he would've been picked up around 10-15 imo. Noel went 6th and he's raw as fuck too. Mason Plumlee went ahead of Gobert.
Serge Ibaka - 2008, 24th. Joe Alexander went 8th in this draft cause he could jump and dunk, but Ibaka went 24th with the same skillset. Anthony Randolph went 14th.

I mean, I can go on, but I think my point is made. There's always going to be busts, but the fact is that Euros get a bad knock cause of one or two notable busts and now everyone thinks it's riskier to pick them when in reality the success rate of drafting European talent is higher than drafting hyped up one and done players. How is Jimmer Fredette doing now? Thought he was supposedly this amazing college superstar? Not good right? Well that's what Trae Young is going to be. Michael Porter Jr? That's just a cheap Doug McDermott in the making. Even Ayton could just be another Okafor with his complete lack of defensive game and being trigger happy with jumpshots instead of abusing his size inside.

Re: LaVine. Unless he improves on defense, his ceiling is a good scorer off the bench and nothing more.
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby air gordon on Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:33 am

Valor wrote:There's always going to be busts,

yes both american and overseas players. 1 and done, upperclassmen. no one is safe lol

Merely listing the picks that didn’t work out for each draft doesn’t make your point. I could easily do the same in the time period with overseas players when most of the nba teams actually had scouts overseas (ahem kukoc).

Honestly, i don’t pay attention to the hype. I’ll read a few articles, watch a few vids, listen to a few podcasts... All taken with a grain of salt. The hype train was definitely full a few years ago for that okafor draft class. Just ask jackal and novu.

Does smoking frank look like a better pick than donovan mitchell? Sorry knicks fans. papi poulos is still in the league? Right on my greek brother

The scouting story on giannis is a pretty cool one. Jonathan givony. Google it

And let’s be fair to the legend fredette. He was a 4yr college player, not some one and done hype.

Dragan tarlac, dailbor bagaric, kornell david, david kornell, viktor the crapper. Ooh now that’s a list.


Valor wrote:
Re: LaVine. Unless he improves on defense, his ceiling is a good scorer off the bench and nothing more.

what's the breakdown on this? in the few games i watched last yer when he was healthy, he did on several occasions lose track of his guy when he was off the ball.
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby Valor on Thu May 10, 2018 12:49 pm

air gordon wrote:Merely listing the picks that didn’t work out for each draft doesn’t make your point. I could easily do the same in the time period with overseas players when most of the nba teams actually had scouts overseas (ahem kukoc).

Of course it doesn't make my point, they are called examples, to aid my argument, which was that European talents often get glossed over because they are not American.

air gordon wrote:Dragan tarlac, dailbor bagaric, kornell david, david kornell, viktor the crapper. Ooh now that’s a list.

Tarlac was a second round pick (by Krause, who was in over his head after hitting on Kukoc and always trying to send a message to MJ etc about how organisations win championships), you expect many hits there?
Similarly, Bagaric was another horrible Krause pick. He picked the brilliant Marcus Fizer with the 4th overall pick that year, not exactly a Euro is he?
Kornell David was signed not picked, another Krause move. Don't even know why he kept signing him, not important, and he wasn't exactly expected to be anything.

Your "list" is basically some dumb Krause moves when he fucked up the franchise to make his point to MJ, I don't see how that showcases the league not having a preference for hyping up local prospects and quickly dismissing any legit ones from Europe.

air gordon wrote:Does smoking frank look like a better pick than donovan mitchell?

No, but neither does Markelle Fultz, Jonathan Isaac, Malik Monk, or Luke Kennard. Mitchell went 13th, let's not pretend the Knicks picked Ntilikina first overall over Mitchell.

Jimmer may not have been a one-and-done, but he was definitely hyped up beyond measure. I only brought him up cause that's the comparison to Trae Young.

Names I've been seeing over and over again from Bulls fans everywhere include Michael Porter Jr (have you seen him play? Dougie McBuckets will shit on this guy), Trae Young (Jimmer 2.0), and Mo Bamba (Hasheem Thabeet). I don't understand, how the fuck are these guys considered better prospects? and I know you'll come back saying Bulls aren't projected to pick that high but.....I literally just saw an article on yahoo sports talking about how Bulls need to draft Bamba if they move up in the lottery into the top 5 range, and other outlets are talking about how Doncic not working out for teams due to Euroleague commitments is a concern. (Why? I rate winning a trophy against actual competition more than doing a pre-practised set of drills) :roll:

You're kidding yourself if you don't think there's a bias when evaluating prospects. Sure, scouts and GMs may have better knowledge nowadays (Not so sure about GarPax), but media and fans certainly have that bias.
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby air gordon on Fri May 11, 2018 10:20 am

Hey valor
krause really screwed the pooch after MJ left huh? I don’t want to get too technical but if you’re going to include a 2nd round pick in Jokic, it’s fair game to include into the discussion whatever garbage kause brought in

Big frank played in europe, that’s why i’m bringing him up, not those other american players that went ahead of the american mitchell ;)

GarPax last year traded for the rights to the finnish born Markennan. Just saying

Makes sense to me for a team to want to work out a player they are investing a top pick in.

Of course the media and fans have a bias. sounds like you do too

as i mentioned before i haven't seen much of any of the nba prospects play. tbh i've seen more donic and lauri during the euro tournament last year. caught some of games from the ncaa tourney. that's about it so i can't fulfill your expectations on that one haha

So assuming the bulls don’t trade the farm for Doncic, who should they pick??
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby Valor on Sat May 12, 2018 10:02 pm

air gordon wrote:Hey valor
krause really screwed the pooch after MJ left huh? I don’t want to get too technical but if you’re going to include a 2nd round pick in Jokic, it’s fair game to include into the discussion whatever garbage kause brought in

Those dark days in the early noughties were a painful memory.....

Fair enough, but I was including Jokic etc as examples of how legit European talents get glossed over and often falls down to the second round. Remember the Lakers? They opted to keep "Chinese Magic" (Laughable) Sun Yue over Marc Gasol in the Pau deal when I believe Memphis was asking for either one's draft rights. We all know how that turned out :lol:

I reckon it was different with the garbage from Krause, as he didn't spot hidden gems, but rather just tried hard to "prove his point", which screwed his player evaluation ability. League on a whole still continued to overlook Euros.

air gordon wrote:Big frank played in europe, that’s why i’m bringing him up, not those other american players that went ahead of the american mitchell ;)

Yeah I'm just saying nobody rated Mitchell that high, not just the Knicks (just because he's not a freshman, NBA's mad about these one and done hyped up little kids)

air gordon wrote:GarPax last year traded for the rights to the finnish born Markennan. Just saying

Pick was fine, trading All-NBA Jimmy Butler for him wasn't. I maintain that stance....

air gordon wrote:Makes sense to me for a team to want to work out a player they are investing a top pick in.

Legit competition should have more weight than running a guy through drills though. By all means fly over and watch the games yourself if you aren't convinced (the GMs), and they can always do an interview with him via skype or something. It's not like this is the 80s and 90s where the internet wasn't as prevalent.

air gordon wrote:Of course the media and fans have a bias. sounds like you do too

Yep, I sure do. I have a bias for good basketball players with strong fundamentals over the hyped up one and done youtube highlight sensations or "raw potential" players. IMO overall quality of American players entering the NBA has been on a steady decline (though there are good ones like Tatum and Mitchell), and it's due to the absolute toxic AAU system where it's all about sponsorship, dollars, highlights, internet hype, social status etc rather than basketball development. One and done in the NCAA isn't helping things either.

Happy to hear that it might come to an end (one and done), hopefully they make more use of the G-League as a developmental league like the MLB's minors for those players who doesn't want to go play for NCAA, and make those who want to go to college stay for 2-3 years minimum before turning pro so they can get some proper coaching. There's a reason why players don't "break out" until they are in their 3rd/4th year nowadays, they just aren't ready coming after one year of college. This is why I prefer European players for the most part, they are well coached and fundamentally sound, play the game the right way and don't give a fuck about making youtube.

air gordon wrote:as i mentioned before i haven't seen much of any of the nba prospects play. tbh i've seen more donic and lauri during the euro tournament last year. caught some of games from the ncaa tourney. that's about it so i can't fulfill your expectations on that one haha

So assuming the bulls don’t trade the farm for Doncic, who should they pick??

That's fair, the tape I've seen on some of those talked about players just have not impressed me one bit...I honestly don't know what the right pick is outside of Doncic, he seems to be the only sure fire superstar for me. Not impressed with anyone else in this draft class.
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby air gordon on Sun May 13, 2018 3:32 am

Working out a prospect who may save or lose your GM job is the smart thing to do. That's being diligent despite how many games one has scouted. For someone like doncic I would have him go against a NBA prototype sized wing but thata just me

Perhaps another time to dig deep on the claim of lack of quality american players coming into the league ;)
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby Jackal on Mon May 14, 2018 9:09 pm

Valor wrote:Remember the Lakers? They opted to keep "Chinese Magic" (Laughable) Sun Yue over Marc Gasol in the Pau deal when I believe Memphis was asking for either one's draft rights. We all know how that turned out :lol:


Memphis also wanted Sun in the trade, but we wanted to keep at least one of those 2 guys so Memphis wanted Marc and we are happy that we were able to keep Sun Yue, because we liked him when we drafted him.


Source.

Memphis wanted Marc regardless of Sun Yue.
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby Valor on Mon May 14, 2018 10:21 pm

air gordon wrote:Working out a prospect who may save or lose your GM job is the smart thing to do. That's being diligent despite how many games one has scouted. For someone like doncic I would have him go against a NBA prototype sized wing but thata just me

If I remember correctly, what made Detroit pick Darko #2 was because Dumars happened to come across him dominating a workout during a Pistons shootaround, so yeah....I always take private workouts with a healthy dose of scepticism. Real games is where one's true abilities can be judged imo.

Jackal wrote:Memphis wanted Marc regardless of Sun Yue.

I don't think we're interpreting it the same way, my understanding of that statement is that Memphis wanted both of them, Lakers didn't want to give up both and opted to keep Sun because they liked him more when they drafted him, so Memphis happy to take just Marc.

Either way, the most revealing part of that article to me is this...
"European players are different, so he's going to have to prove it this year"

They are judged differently from American players, on a much harsher scale, doubted from the start until they can prove everyone else wrong.
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby air gordon on Tue May 15, 2018 4:19 am

yeah sure, boards don't hit back lol. what were the details of the workout? obviously joe didn't do his hw homework correctly, despite Benji's protests haha

what was darko doing in euro play? that sure was one helluva a draft class

i see your point on gameplay but i'm not ride or die on it. i'll take all the information i can get if my job is riding on this draft pick panning out. but again, that's just me.

it's really a shame the alleged top prospects don't attend and play in the draft camps. the bulls don't pick Pippen if he just showed up for measurements

Valor wrote:That's fair, the tape I've seen on some of those talked about players just have not impressed me one bit...I honestly don't know what the right pick is outside of Doncic, he seems to be the only sure fire superstar for me. Not impressed with anyone else in this draft class.

better keep on looking at tape haha
it will be a shocker a team would trade out of a top 3 (yeah we went over the trade last year).

assuming the bulls stay at 6, from the sites i've briefly read, Doncic, JJjr, Ayton, Bagley will off the board. so possibly choosing from...

Porter Jr
Mamba
Young
Carter
Bridges
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby Valor on Tue May 15, 2018 7:24 am

According to the 03 Draft documentary (condensed version on youtube) Dumars just happened to stumble across Darko working out by himself and fell in love. :lol: Darko averaged 9.5 ppg and 4.6 rpg in the YUBA League the previous season on 48% shooting, not sure what he saw :facepalm2:

air gordon wrote:i'll take all the information i can get if my job is riding on this draft pick panning out. but again, that's just me.

GarPax doesn't get fired for anything :lol:

Yeah a trade out of top 3 always a shocker, hoping we hit the lottery luck again this year...10 years after Rose happened with 1.7% chance.

Definitely not Porter Jr or Young, sceptical on the other 3. It'll depend on where we land I suppose. Not a fan of Bagley either for top 5, reminds me of Beasley. Ayton seems like the next safest thing outside of Doncic I guess?
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby air gordon on Wed May 16, 2018 7:20 am

yeah but darko get awesome playing against big ben and 'sheed in practice lol

i'm assuming they'll stay at 6. i'm on the wagon for picking best player available. i'm not sure who that is but with the assumption the core of players improves, the bulls won't be picking this high in the future.

another thing i'm curious to find out is what is the pecking order for the offense?? dunn, lavine, and lauri. of those 3 only lauri can work off the ball. i wonder if the bulls will drat a player anyway with a high usage.
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby Andrew on Wed May 16, 2018 12:34 pm

So, 7th. Damn that winning streak, eh?
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby air gordon on Wed May 16, 2018 1:38 pm

Yes damn them. Let the hype begin
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby Andrew on Wed May 16, 2018 1:48 pm

Looks like they're televising the draft combine on ESPN Australia, so I'll have to check that out and see who to possibly get hyped for (and then get disappointed when I get my heart set on someone who goes earlier or they pass on).
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby Valor on Wed May 16, 2018 4:10 pm

Well, we're fucked. Winning the tiebreaker against Kings means we got #7 instead of #2. Wonderful. :roll:

Honestly not liking any prospects. Time for GarPax to sell Cam Payne to Phoenix the same way they've been selling him to the Bulls fanbase, and convince them that Payne+Portis is worth #1 :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby air gordon on Thu May 17, 2018 3:03 am

i guess the draft lottery is rigged talk is false at least for this year. getting into the top 3 was a pipe dream

does his walker get included in the payne offer?

read a few articles on Jaren Jackson JR. he would a great fit for the bulls
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby Jackie Kong on Thu May 17, 2018 6:27 am

Bulls: 7th, 22th for 12th, 13th.
Celtics: Rozier, 27th pick for 7th, 22th.
Clippers: 12th, 13th for Rozier, 27th.

or

Bulls: 7th, 22th for 12th, 13th.
Celtics: Rozier for 7th.
Clippers: 12th, 13th for Rozier, 22th.

What you think about this trade idea? In before I get destroyed by everyone. :crazy:

About Rozier, I also mentioned him in the Celtics thread and while I think he has been amazing this playoffs I also think there is not enough room for him and Irving. Plus, he will be a restricted fa next off-season and not sure, Celtics are willing to pay him enough money.
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby Andrew on Thu May 17, 2018 12:37 pm

Seems like the Celtics and Clippers would benefit more than the Bulls in that scenario.
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby Valor on Thu May 17, 2018 4:38 pm

This is one draft where you would not want multiple first round picks, esp not late lottery/mid first so no, I'd rather we use all currency to trade up potentially into top 5 or trade that second first round pick for future firsts.

If we don't move up, I would be ok with us picking Mohamed Bamba. Rather than picking another mediocre player lets go for the one with the biggest boom-or-bust outlook. He'll either be another Rudy Gobert or Hasheem Thabeet. What have we got to lose at this point, right? If he works out then it's a perfect fit next to Markkanen. Dunn-Lavine-whoever-Lauri-Bamba, I can live with that....maybe.

Of course, I'd still need GarPax to get rid of Valentine, Portis, Payne, Felicio, Lopez before I can stop hating the roster again. Even better if GarPax follows them out the door too but miracles don't happen :lol:

air gordon wrote:read a few articles on Jaren Jackson JR. he would a great fit for the bulls

Jackson's a lightweight PF who doesn't like contact though, I still think having a solid anchor in the middle is important. Him and Lauri are going to struggle if shots don't fall cause they cant bang inside. Rather have a legit C
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby Andrew on Thu May 17, 2018 4:53 pm

Fair point. In the absence of a can't-miss prospect or clear choice at the seventh pick, might as well gamble on a go-big-or-go-home selection. It's not like we expected the rebuilding process to be complete in a year, after all.
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby air gordon on Fri May 18, 2018 12:44 am

Ok i think we all get you don’t like management lol. not a fan either but i'll give credit when it's due

No love for Valentine or Portis? Both proved they are legit rotation players. Portis is even a 3pt threat.

6’11 240lbs is on the lightside for a 19yr old? Tough crowd. I like his shotblocking and especially his versatility on both sides of the ball. That’s a rare combo to be able to protect the paint and still be able to close out/switch on perimeter players

Mamba does apparently fit the high upside pick. If JJjr is off the board @7 (most likely), i’d be for the pick

Pax keeps on talking about adding a wing player. Unless this is some kind of krause-like ploy, i think the bulls are picking a wing
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby benji on Fri May 18, 2018 5:10 am

Valor wrote:Jackson's a lightweight PF who doesn't like contact though

Since when? Never looked like he had that problem in the Spartan games.

Don't worry though, I doubt he slips far enough since he's potentially epic for the modern NBA. Chandler comparatively took ages to learn to use his length versus moving or leaving his feet, and never had a jumper.
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby Valor on Fri May 18, 2018 10:55 am

air gordon wrote:Ok i think we all get you don’t like management lol. not a fan either but i'll give credit when it's due

What am I supposed to do? Praise them when they haven't done anything praiseworthy recently?

air gordon wrote: No love for Valentine or Portis? Both proved they are legit rotation players. Portis is even a 3pt threat.

Valentine is a rotational player.....on a lottery team. He's not quality enough to be a rotational option on a playoff contender, that's where we want to be, right?
Portis is a punk who talked a lot of shit about the Bulls and then punches his own teammates, so no, no love for him. Oh, and Mirotic is twice the player he is.

air gordon wrote:6’11 240lbs is on the lightside for a 19yr old? Tough crowd. I like his shotblocking and especially his versatility on both sides of the ball. That’s a rare combo to be able to protect the paint and still be able to close out/switch on perimeter players

We have Lauri who is 7'0 230 at PF already, and as a power forward who's game is to be athletic and run around etc Jackson is not likely to add more. I'd rather have a bigger guy who can handle physicality. (have you seen the guy? he looks like a stick) A lot of times in college he gave up cheap fouls cause he can't hold his ground; and with all that length and athleticism, he only averaged 5.8 rebounds, that tells me he just doesn't want to bang down low.

Also, both sides on the ball? Dude plays out of control and is a turnover machine, 17.4% turnover percentage. Ayton in comparison is at 11.3%. His shot is slow as too, not gonna get that off in the NBA.

Conclusion: Jackson reminds me of Thon Maker. I don't necessarily hate the choice if we go with him (like i said, high risk/reward ones are fine) but I don't think we should be drafting another PF when we have a lot of other holes to fill as Lauri looks legit. At least there's no questions with the legitimacy of Jackson's age, I guess.


air gordon wrote:Pax keeps on talking about adding a wing player. Unless this is some kind of krause-like ploy, i think the bulls are picking a wing

Please no Michael Porter Jr
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby air gordon on Fri May 18, 2018 2:46 pm

Management did a fine job this year. Minus the Felecio deal, the moves they made were solid.

Valentine doubled his production this year and is a good 3pt shooter on high volume. Even added a floater to his game. Portis may be a punk but he has become a reliable scorer off the bench. It was a roller coaster ride for Niko. thanks to the heavens it’s over.

Those guys may not have all star appearances in their future but this team needs their own guys to develop. They’ll never get out of the basement if they continue to miss on draft picks/not accumulate assets. Obviously a lot riding on the return from the Butler trade and the upcoming draft pick as well.

I’m not sure how you’ve already come to a conclusion these prospects are deadbeats. Perhaps you’re merely just overstating their weaknesses (some incorrectly says the michigan native) listed on websites (lol). Whoever they get @7 is not going to be polished/haven't been playing professional since they were in diapers like Doncic ;)
Derrick is a legend, no matter what. I don’t like how you explained that
Jabari Parker in response to a reporter asking him to comment on Derrick Rose's "fall from grace"
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Re: Chicago Bulls Thread

Postby benji on Sat May 19, 2018 12:19 am

He averaged 6 rebounds a game, playing 22 minutes, and it was still only one rebound off the team leaders. Other than Ward he was probably the most consistent offensive rebounder on the team. He was eighth in the Big Ten in rebounding percentage.

He's a big, who had just turned 18 to start the season season, a lot of his turnovers were screens and he never got "star" calls like Bridges. He still dominated defensively, everyone could overplay and not screw up the defense because Jackson was incredible at closing the gaps. And again, he was 18! He swatted 14% of opposing shots, which was 2nd in college basketball last year, and a higher rate than Anthony Davis, John Henson and most everyone else big name recently.

Playing out of control is like the last thing you could call him, if anything he was often too concessionary to the veterans who were worse. The team's offense was basically Bridges fires up a bunch of shots, and everyone else plays efficiently to make up for it. When Bridges crapped the bed mid-season and refused to shoot against Minnesota, Jackson tore them apart, so they threw a zone at him and he hit five threes. He rarely had the green light to put up that many shots, Nick Ward didn't either but he would actually take em and get himself yanked even though he was overall the Spartans best player. Jackson hit 80% on his FT's too.

Did I mention that he's still 18?!? He's younger than the HSer in the Draft!

He's practically a perfect pick at #4 for Memphis. It'd be shocking if he dropped past them. And more so if he made it to #7.
Last edited by benji on Sat May 19, 2018 12:23 am, edited 4 times in total.
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