Players of Illusion

[Andrew]

Championships make everyone look better, from the coach to the star player to the 12th player on the roster. In particular, they have a way of making role players look much better than they really are.

Let's give credit where credit is due. There have been some great sixth men and role players on NBA championship teams. Many of these players have legitimate skills and they are functioning parts of a well-oiled machine. But all things being equal, they aren't necessarily better than their counterparts on less successful teams.

So, which players do you think are players of illusion, ie role players on championship teams who have become somewhat overrated thanks to the team's success?

[Matthew]

Underated:
Joe Dumars
Danny Ainge
Horace Grant
Pippen (1st 3 peat, he got due recognition in the second)
Rodman (detroit championships)
Rick Fox

Overated:
Luc Longley
Derek fisher (2002)
Samaki Walker
Vernon Maxwell
Robert Horry (95)
Rodman (98)
James Worthy

[J@3]

Overated:
Luc Longley

I'd say Tyronn Lue belongs on that list somewhere. There's a strong possibility Tayshaun Prince could end up there too, but that's gonna be a matter of time before we'll know.

[Matthew]

I dunno about Lue. He has done pretty much the same on the wizards and Magic that he did against the sixers in the finals: good on the ball defense and can hit the open jumper.

[Jowe]

overrated:
Billups
larry brown
horry
fisher

underrated:
rudy tom
kenny smith
ron harper

[cklitsie]

still underrated:
tayshaun prince

soooooooo overrated:
tyron lue

[Matt]

which players do you think are players of illusion, ie role players on championship teams who have become somewhat overrated thanks to the team's success?

overrated:
Billups

[Stevan]

These guys aren't on championship teams but they were overrated after playing with/behind some legends of the game and making it to the Finals:
Bryon Russel, Shandon Anderson, Howard Isley...

We all know about Luc Longley, Jud Buechler, Randy Brown, etc.

Vernon Maxwell maybe?

More recently, Antonio Daniels (I think he was on the spurs roster), Danny Fairy, the Pistons.

[Matt]

the Pistons.

too much HATERADE u stooge!!! Pistons own!!!

[abdula_da_rauf]

pretty boy rick fox.

[[Q]]

Overated:
Rodman (98)

Rodman was still really good in his Chicago years. Not only did he lead the NBA several years in a row in rebounding, but he learned to shoot a decent jump shot and free throws (thanks to another coach's "Hack-A-Rodman" tactics).

[NNpF]

the Pistons.

too much HATERADE u stooge!!! Pistons own!!!

Haha...I know you like the Pistons but I guess you can't say they are a great team until they have a good season next year. They don't have to win but maybe they are a one-time-wonder. Like I'm saying, no offense, I love the Pistons, but they are a bit overrated at this time.

As for players:

underrated:
- Bob Sura
- Keith Van Horn (had a great season last year, we'll see if he could do it again)
- Richard Jefferson (I know this is coming from a Nets fan but: I don't know why so many people hate him, yes he had a poor Olympic performance, but in the NBA he is already an amazing player and still has a long way to go before he reaches his full potential.)

[carsley]

how is james worthy overrated he's one of the best 75 players ever to play the game

you don't say mischael jordan is overrated do you??

[j.23]

i'm not going to say anything about underrated but tyronn lue is definately overrated.. he's had a couple good games in the NBA but so does everyone else (bob sura with back-to-back triple doubles) but this guy is streaky; either he'll hit consecutive threes or shoot bricks.. i'm not a big fan of his decision making either. i've seen wizards games where they were down by 1 or 2 and he'll spot up for a 26 footer sometimes even contested when there's an open man right next to him.

[Matthew]

Maybe I'm one of the few, but living in Chicago and being a strong Bulls fan, I always thought Scottie Pippen was bit overrated on the Bulls championship squads. Don't get me wrong, Pippen was a good player, a great defender, and perennial all-star calibre player, but many people considered him the 2nd best player in the league. That simply was not the case, IMO.

I disagree. In the second 3 peat, He was as close to jordan as any player in the nba in terms of skills and knowing what to do to be succesfull. He was almost on equal footing with MJ. The only other player I'd choose over him in that period apart from Jordan is Malone.

These guys aren't on championship teams but they were overrated after playing with/behind some legends of the game and making it to the Finals:
Bryon Russel, Shandon Anderson, Howard Isley...

Don't forget John Starks.

Rodman was still really good in his Chicago years. Not only did he lead the NBA several years in a row in rebounding, but he learned to shoot a decent jump shot and free throws (thanks to another coach's "Hack-A-Rodman" tactics).

In 98 he was overated. He was valueable still, but would he have been as effective playing in Philly that season? Absolutely not, which makes him overated in this thread.

Like I'm saying, no offense, I love the Pistons, but they are a bit overrated at this time.

How can they be overated? They just won the championship.

how is james worthy overrated he's one of the best 75 players ever to play the game

He was the product of magic and kareem. put him on a team without them and watch him struggle.

[Andrew]

Some good choices there, but some of the guys are a little too high profile. I meant guys like Derek Fisher, Samaki Walker, Tyronn Lue etc. Yes, I realise those are all Lakers but no, I'm not a "hater". Basically, guys who chipped in here and there but suddenly became solid players rated much higher than their skills and performance warrants, attracting the interest of other teams that believe they could be the answer to some of their problems.

We tend to talk up players when they're part of a championship team, too. Take Jud Buechler for example. He made a couple of big shots during the 96-98 Bulls championship runs, he provided energy, he provided a breather for guys like MJ and Pip, he did what was he asked of him. He still contributed to the Bulls' success here and there, mostly through intangibles.

However, the fact remains he's not a player who can make an impact on the stats sheet or be dependable playing a greater role. No one touted him as a possible super sixth man after the Bulls' championships but he's an example of a player on a championship team that might get a major promotion by moving elsewhere. Tyronn Lue is a good example of such a player.

Bill Wennington was the Bulls' backup centre from 96-98. He was a good fit and could do what they need him to do. But not every team would choose him as their second centre. Likewise, Lue showed promise in the 2001 Finals but went from third-string reserve to key reserve/starting point guard.

Similarly, Samaki Walker started for the Lakers in 2002 basically out of necessity. He did what he had to do and his 2001/2002 numbers are arguably the best of his career. But the next season he fell out of favour and since then has played sparingly for Miami and will most likely play behind Kwame in Washington this year. As a member of the 2002 championship team, he looked like a much better option as a starting power forward.

[air gordon]

Overated:

James Worthy
He was the product of magic and kareem. put him on a team without them and watch him struggle.

say it ain't so! the same guy who's career ppg in the playoffs were substantially higher then in the regular season? the player who earned the nickname big games james overrated?!

my high school coach would teach us james worthy post/face up moves and even had us watch in game playoff clips of james worthy



overrated: i think most of the role players that played in the triangle offense in the lakers/bulls championship teams

[fgrep15]

Overatted
Derek Fisher
Devean George
Tayshaun Prince [I'm sorry, his defense is good, but way overatted by so many people]
Samaki Walker


Chauncey and Rip have now rised in their position rankings in some people's minds now because of this too, Chauncey is suddenly one of the best PG's, and Rip is a top 5 SG . They aren't "role players" though.

But the next season he fell out of favour and since then has played sparingly for Miami and will most likely play behind Kwame in Washington this year

Etan Thomas will likely play most of the backup PF and Center minutes, and I think Jared Jefferies and Michael Ruffin will even get time before Samaki.

[Chizzle]

Richard Jefferson (I know this is coming from a Nets fan but: I don't know why so many people hate him, yes he had a poor Olympic performance, but in the NBA he is already an amazing player and still has a long way to go before he reaches his full potential

He is jus not likeable...For 1 he ball hogs...and 2 he shoots the 3 all the time like he can jus somethin about him i dont like,decent player

[Mahoney_jr]

Overrated is too easy to be said...

I think underachieving in the following season / the next team could be for a variety of reasons. Including:

1. lacking motivation to play in a worse situation
2. worse coaching
3. new team, new tactics, new role (from 6th man to starter or more)

Mostly they aren't underachieving. They have problems to do the next step, imho

But I think, Shandon Anderson, Tyronn Lue, Austin Croshere are typicals for this type of players, aren't they?

[.]

Samaki Walker is the most overrated bum I can think of, what idiot injures himself during the games tipoff.

[Matthew]

say it ain't so! the same guy who's career ppg in the playoffs were substantially higher then in the regular season? the player who earned the nickname big games james overrated?!

I'm not saying Big Game James is a bad player, I just think if he was in a dominique type situation, he wouldnt be as effective.

At any given time, from 95-96 to 97-98 Hakeem Olajuwon, John Stockton, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley, Grant Hill, Shaquille O'Neal, Penny Hardaway, Gary Payton, Alonzo Mourning, and probably a couple of guys I'm forgetting were better than Pippen at one time or another during that second 3 peat.

Would you build a franchise around Pippen over Shaq, Olajuwon, or The Admiral? Very few people would.

Shaq was injured every season from 96 to 98. Olajuwon, while still effective, wasnt the same hakeem as in years past and the admiral only had one admiral-type season, in 96, before his back injury. Pippen however was in the prime of his career and there wasnt anything he didnt do on the court. He deserves all the credit he gets. And if I had to start a franchise with anyone not named jordan in that era, It would definately be pip.

[air gordon]

TheCambyManVol3... i'll concede that wilkins situation. i don't think worthy ever was a player who you can completely build around but i don't think he's worthy of overrated status. true he did benefit from some nice feeds from magic on the break. but those huge shots in the post and 12ft out against the celts and pistons in those respective finals were all (james)worthy

demilioso ... comparing pippen to the great centers of the 90's in your arguments isn't fair. unless the player's name is jordan, most of the gm's would choose to build a franchise around the centers you mentioned. also statistically, those players you named were all #1 options and you very well know pip was always #2

You can't use Pippen's defense as the X factor to make him better, because if anyone in the NBA had comparable defense, it was Hakeem.

did hakeem have the versatility to lockdown 4 positions equally effective? pip shut down the whole indiana pacer offense, in another shut down glenn rice, then being total pain in the ass to the whole jazz team. pippen should have several DPOY on his belt if there wasn't this bias for giving the award to big men

And don't give me intangibles. Scottie Pippen was the perennial NBA cry baby.

He was always a cry baby, and there are many a negative things surrounding his personality. So his "leadership" factor sort of becomes a question mark too...

actually a lot of pippen's game was about tangibles, not stats. he was very unselfish and the glue to that bulls team. before 1989 and other then 1.8 seconds incident, this cry baby comment is undeserved and unwarranted. you watched the bulls/jazz series where he sacrificed his body to take a charge on karl malone, or sucked it up in game 6 despite the bad back. because of his "personality" his leadership should be questioned? what are you talking about?

the admiral didn't do jack shit until tim duncan arrived as far as i'm concerned

francis on the same plan as pippen because of similar stats? pip would pass it to the likes of longley and wennginton, francis wouldn't even pass it to yao. i won't bother mentioning the numerous all nba & defensive teams that francis has. nba c'mon now...

and pip was a 'bigger' leader because those blazers teams were full of nuts, and (sheed wouldn't take the role) unlike the bulls teams who could virtually coach themselves for long stretches.

How about Jason Kidd? Is he better than Shaq?

in fantasy basketball, yes

btw.. plenty of openings in the unofficial nlsc fantasy football league
http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~nbalive/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17499

[J@3]

btw.. plenty of openings in the unofficial nlsc fantasy football league

I'd join that if I knew even one players name

[magius]

i'd probably go in this order:

1. jordan
2. hakeem
3. pippen
4. malone