Kill The Wretched Specialists! I Love This Game.....

[John-John Joe]

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I'm sick and tired of hearing all these lame excuses for why NBA players lost internationally. When are people going to face the facts and admit that we are going about basketball all wrong in this country?

Look at the NBA:

- Rebounders
- Shotblockers
- Defenders
- Shooters (this is the one that really bakes Dre's cookies!)
- Passers
- Slashers

What is this nonsense? This malarkey, this hub-bub, this tom-foolery? Whatever happened to just being a basketball player? Sure each player will have their strengths and weaknesses, things that they can do better than others, that's a given. But since when did we start pidgeon-holing players into doing one specific job? And what happens when you ask that wretched "specialist" to do something else outside of their "job description"? They come up empty like a man with a low sperm count!

Did you watch those games? Did you notice how so many players like Hermanson for instance could not only rebound but pass and shoot also? I never saw one "specialist". All I saw were basketball players! Some people think it's funny, but we NEED to get back to the fundamentals. One on One, Over-Dribbling and the constant dunking is stunting the very growth of this game we have come to know and love. Why can't we SHOOT anymore? It's disgusting......

And name one player who had the ability to catch and shoot effectively, go ahead name one. Oh..my bad...we only had "slashers" on the team. Am I the only one finding this absolutely BANANAS? Holla back, I'm officially off Ye Old Soapbox. (For now)

[J@3]

They come up empty like a man with a low sperm count!

Speaking from personal experience huh

Seriously though I agree with you. It can't be that difficult to find players who can do more than one job, I mean it's not as if you're trained to only learn one skill and then rely on that skill for the rest of your career (unless you're Dennis Rodman). In Australia, even though we didn't do very well, we didn't pick our players based on their individual skills. Shane Heal for instance is one of the better 3pt shooters in international basketball but he got picked because he's Shane Heal, he's experienced and he can run a team (sometimes). Unlike the USA team who apparentely picked Emeka Okafor because he's from college (:roll:) or Carmelo Anthony because he sells jerseys... er... actually all of them got picked because they sell jerseys

[Fresh8]

not to mention, countries like China and Austrlalia had trials and invited players to try out for the team.

The US picked the players they knew could make $$$, and had good seasons in the NBA and basically asked the next available player they thought were good only to end up with no real point guard, no real big men and no team concept... did i mention... they chose guys who played the same style???

[Matthew]

The trials won't work for america i don't think. How are you going to get players to goto trials if they won't want to be on the team? For the olympic years.. i think the nba season should be 20 games shorter.. then there should be no excuse for the players declining.

Did you watch those games? Did you notice how so many players like Hermanson for instance could not only rebound but pass and shoot also? I never saw one "specialist". All I saw were basketball players! Some people think it's funny, but we NEED to get back to the fundamentals. One on One, Over-Dribbling and the constant dunking is stunting the very growth of this game we have come to know and love. Why can't we SHOOT anymore? It's disgusting......

I think the nba has tinkered with the game too much. the rule changes to "improve scoring" fuck these players up in the long run.

[FanOfAll]

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I'm sick and tired of hearing all these lame excuses for why NBA players lost internationally. When are people going to face the facts and admit that we are going about basketball all wrong in this country?

I don't know if it's excuses. People are just listing facts as to why the US lost. Just like I'm pretty sure people who care about Lithuania or S & M or Spain are listing just as many facts as we are about why their country lost.

And name one player who had the ability to catch and shoot effectively, go ahead name one. Oh..my bad...we only had "slashers" on the team. Am I the only one finding this absolutely BANANAS? Holla back, I'm officially off Ye Old Soapbox.

I'll be honest and say I was disappointed with many of our "slashers." They seemed to refuse to slash (eg, Jefferson sometimes, Marion always, LBJ always)...even Wade who would slash lose track of where he is and then hoist a bad shot or turn the ball over. The slashing was basically Marbury and Iverson.

[Sauru]

trials would work. basicly you send out invites to a bunch of players(not just 12-15) and they get back to you on if they wish to try out or not. whoever wants to be on the team shows up and tries to win a roster spot. should be done a year before the olympics so we will know for awhile what the team will be and they will have time to practice together. when you make the team at tryout take 15-16 players on the team and make a list of the 12 who will be the actual team. have the other 3-4 keep working out/praticing with you as some of the original 12 most likly will back out.

[John-John Joe]

Guys, you're still not following me. We as americans (and perhaps I tend to forget that alot of my fellow Live Fanatics here are from overseas) need to get away from making guys stress one skill over another. The facts are that the skill level has plummeted dramatically, since when it is ok to be a basketball player that can't do the most basic, rudimentary things it takes to be a player? SHOOT! They cannot SHOOT! We even now regard players as "SHOOTERS" or "SCORERS" what kind of nonsense is that? Jordan was both, Magic was both, Larry Legend was both, Bernard King was both, Alex English was both, Clyde Drexler was both.....etc. etc. etc. See my point?

This isn't about jerseys, or $$$, or who they picked or didn't pick. I'm just keeping it real even though I'm an American. The SKILL LEVEL around the world is VASTLY superior to ours. Sure we have the most TALENT but that doesn't mean a hill of beans if the skill level of the players isn't condusive to a team concept...... Something's gotta give.......

[Rens]

This principle made Ford the best running company in the world when they thought of it.

[Riot]

There are plently of "basketball players" in the nba. Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady?, Tim Duncan, Michael Finley even. It's just we focus more on a team game filled with role players and superstars.

KG is the "basketball player".
Cassell and Wally are the "Shooters".
Sprewell is the "slasher".
Hassell is the "Defender".
and so on.

I don't buy your reasonings. I think America is still head and shoulders above the world. But I think we played with our hands tied behind our backs. Why? Our best players didn't even go, we had next to no practice time, new game, horrible selection committee, refs.

To me, with everything that was going against our team...Bronze is impressive. Our guys gave one hell of an effort with our backs against the wall. Hopefully in 2008 we'll be ready to play but no doubt in my mind is America the best basketball country in the world.

[John-John Joe]

There are plently of "basketball players" in the nba. Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady?, Tim Duncan, Michael Finley even. It's just we focus more on a team game filled with role players and superstars.

KG is the "basketball player".
Cassell and Wally are the "Shooters".
Sprewell is the "slasher".
Hassell is the "Defender".
and so on.

I don't buy your reasonings. I think America is still head and shoulders above the world. But I think we played with our hands tied behind our backs. Why? Our best players didn't even go, we had next to no practice time, new game, horrible selection committee, refs.

To me, with everything that was going against our team...Bronze is impressive. Our guys gave one hell of an effort with our backs against the wall. Hopefully in 2008 we'll be ready to play but no doubt in my mind is America the best basketball country in the world.

Riot, have you noticed how the shooting percentages have plummeted since 1991 in the NBA? I understand totally how guys fit into a team concept based on their "jobs". You used the Wolves as an example, and yes I understand how Hassell is the "defender", Wally the "shooter" and so forth........

But look, the problem is with labeling guys that often THEY CAN'T DO MUCH ELSE. No, that doesn't become a problem in a league that promotes "The Specialist" but it shows when facing guys who now how to play the game the right way. What, this Olympics was a fluke because of the selection committee? Ok, so how do you explain the three losses in the World Games in 2002? Same thing? Selection Committee?

These were all tell tale signs that we have a bunch of guys who don't know the first thing about basketball. O fcourse we've got the most talent, we know this. But the skill level is atrocious. There is no way that you should have a shooting guard who CAN'T SHOOT, and talented players who can't execute a catch and shoot. It's disgusting........

Look at where American basketball has gone, strictly one on one play. One guy dribbles in a corner for 10-15 seconds of the shot clock while 4 guys wait in 3 point land for the "drive and kick-out". Or, dump it into the post and wait for the double team so the big man can kick it out to one of his teammates standing in three point land merely watching. This is NOT basketball. Where's the movement, the passing, the fluidity? Perhaps I'm being unfair to those born after 1980, you have nothing to judge this game against....

Go and take a gander at ESPN Classic and catch some games from the 1980's. Guys were in better shape, running the floor for the whole game, knew how to run a PROPER FAST BREAK, and could shoot the mid range jumper. And you expect me to believe that our game hasn't taken a turn for the worst???

[Riot]

Good points.

But there are still teams that use that balling rotation game. Perhaps it's the coaches to blame? Maybe they see that Hassell (this is an example) is a great defender. So he is labeled a defender and he works on that to get better...but he doesn't work on his shooting or his ball control. Players are good at one thing and they don't work at the things that need improvement.

What I saw in the olympics was a team that wanted to win but they just didn't have the tools to do it. Some people can't shot, you're telling me back in the 80's everyone could shoot? That's a lie.

[FanOfAll]

This is NOT basketball. Where's the movement, the passing, the fluidity? Perhaps I'm being unfair to those born after 1980, you have nothing to judge this game against....

Yes it is. It's not basketball in the purest form. I agree though, there's a lot missing. I loved the 80s and 90s a lot more than the 00s.

[GloveGuy]

I don't mind the fact that positions in the league are more superficial than in Europe. I don't expect our centers to be able to hit three pointers like the Europeans do. Hakeem Olajuwon couldn't. David Robinson couldn't. They were fundamentally sound, yet they had the right fundamentals for their position.

Dre, I agree with you that our players lack fundamentals, but fundamentals for some positions don't necessarily mean being able to shoot from the outside. I'd rather all of our big men have the footwork and post game of Kevin McHale than the outside shot of Larry Bird. The fact is, they have neither.

I don't expect our swingmen to have the dribbling abilities of Lebron James, but I do expect them to be able to shoot the outside shot. But they have neither.

I don't expect our point guards to have a great outside shot, but I'd like them to be able to pass the ball well and get to the basket and penetrate.

What I'm trying to say is, I agree that we're lacking way too much in fundamentals, but I don't expect our players to do everything. I'd rather that they just focus on what their position requires and do it well. Each position has it's own fundamentals. And instead of focusing on these fundamentals, players are focusing on making a play worthy of SportsCenter's top plays of the week.

[John-John Joe]

Good points.

But there are still teams that use that balling rotation game. Perhaps it's the coaches to blame? Maybe they see that Hassell (this is an example) is a great defender. So he is labeled a defender and he works on that to get better...but he doesn't work on his shooting or his ball control. Players are good at one thing and they don't work at the things that need improvement.

What I saw in the olympics was a team that wanted to win but they just didn't have the tools to do it. Some people can't shot, you're telling me back in the 80's everyone could shoot? That's a lie.

Riot, you totally miss my point. I'm not saying that everybody in the 80's could shoot, what I am saying is that the skill level was vastly superior than what we have now. even guys who weren't the best shooters had the basketball IQ to be effective in a number of situations. To not stand around watching, to know when to cut, how to set a proper screen/pick, etc. etc. There was a greater understanding of the game which translated to a more fluid, productive game out on the floor.

Why have shooting percentages dropped so dramatically? Why do we consistently have more and more final scores that can barely eclipse 70 points? It's all a result of having talented players who don't know the first thing about basketball...... the tools that you eluded to that Team USA lacked were FUNDAMENTALS, plain and simple......

Labeling players is the easy way out. Guys find their niche and perform this well but any coach will tell you that it's much better to have a "basketball player" who can perform any number of duties to benefit the team. I'm not hating on today's player, I'd never do that. but I will call a spade a spade and alot of these guys lack the innate understanding it takes to play within a successful team concept. If alot of them don't have their hands on the ball for a majority of the offensive possession they are almost rendered totally ineffective, it shouldn't be that way....

[John-John Joe]

I don't mind the fact that positions in the league are more superficial than in Europe. I don't expect our centers to be able to hit three pointers like the Europeans do. Hakeem Olajuwon couldn't. David Robinson couldn't. They were fundamentally sound, yet they had the right fundamentals for their position.

Dre, I agree with you that our players lack fundamentals, but fundamentals for some positions don't necessarily mean being able to shoot from the outside. I'd rather all of our big men have the footwork and post game of Kevin McHale than the outside shot of Larry Bird. The fact is, they have neither.

I don't expect our swingmen to have the dribbling abilities of Lebron James, but I do expect them to be able to shoot the outside shot. But they have neither.

I don't expect our point guards to have a great outside shot, but I'd like them to be able to pass the ball well and get to the basket and penetrate.

What I'm trying to say is, I agree that we're lacking way too much in fundamentals, but I don't expect our players to do everything. I'd rather that they just focus on what their position requires and do it well. Each position has it's own fundamentals. And instead of focusing on these fundamentals, players are focusing on making a play worthy of SportsCenter's top plays of the week.

Hi Glove, BTW I'm a huge Seinfeld fan myself! I'm not sitting here saying that our big men should be shooting threes, but I am saying that guards should be able to execute the catch and shoot the most basic principle of playing the position, especially if you're considered a superstar......

But we've pideon-holed these players so much that they accept the fact that they can't do certain things and don't work on new stuff over the summer for the upcoming season. The problem also lies in these GMs choosing "athletes" over "basketball players". Darius Miles? Athlete. Michael Redd? Basketball player. Now, where was Darius drafted and where was Redd drafted? Catch my drift?

[Riot]

because there are more complicated zones.

[Drex]

because there are more complicated zones.

What?
I have to agree with everything DRESPN has said. He's totally right in his points.

[XianeX]

because there are more complicated zones.

Not even five teams play zone in the entire L so don't even try and go there.

I agree with everything DRESPN has brought up. Though I was born in the early nineties, I have seen many tapes from games in the 80s and 90s and watching them play puts the current league to shame.

Shooting percentages have gone down drastically and don't even try giving me the "defenses have gotten better" because that's total bullshit. Players aren't fundamentally sound anymore. The latest fundamentally sound players are Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant (possibly).

[John-John Joe]

because there are more complicated zones.

What?
I have to agree with everything DRESPN has said. He's totally right in his points.

Hi Drex, I'm so happy that someone understands where I'm coming from. I'm not putting down my country or the NBA, I love both.But let me reiterate this point once more.

NBA General Managers need to stop drafting "athletes" over basketball players. Darius Miles? He's an "athlete" and was the third overall pick of the LA Clippers in 2000...... Michael Redd? He's a "basketball player" and was drafted 43rd overall by the Milwaukee Bucks in that same 2000 draft!

Now, are you going to tell me that this isn't indicative of the problems with the league right now? With American basketball right now? Who's the better player? THAT'S OBVIOUS! Michael Redd a second rounder?!? But perhaps if he had worked on throwing down a nasty windmill dunk as opposed to that sweet shooting stroke he would've had a crack at being drafted 3rd overall! It's disgusting!

[John-John Joe]

because there are more complicated zones.

Not even five teams play zone in the entire L so don't even try and go there.

I agree with everything DRESPN has brought up. Though I was born in the early nineties, I have seen many tapes from games in the 80s and 90s and watching them play puts the current league to shame.

Shooting percentages have gone down drastically and don't even try giving me the "defenses have gotten better" because that's total bullshit. Players aren't fundamentally sound anymore. The latest fundamentally sound players are Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant (possibly).

X, speak the truth brother. It's complete bullshit to use that "defense has gotten better" MALARKEY. It's a sorry ass excuse for what we are witnessing happening to American basketball as we know it. As far as fundamental players goes, I like your short list. And fully understand the (possibly) next to Kobe. He's very fundamentally sound but his hard-headedness and selfish streaks often overtakes the fundamental part of his game. Tim Duncan and KG?

Here's some more in no particular order:

1. Brent Barry
2. John Barry
3. LeBron James
4. Earl Boykins
5. Brian Cardinal
6. Andrei Kirilenko
7. Bobby Jackson
8. Yao Ming
9. Jason Kidd (despite the lousy J)
10. Robert Horry
11. Manu Ginobili

There's some more but those are the ones that come off the top of my head.....

[GloveGuy]

But we've pideon-holed these players so much that they accept the fact that they can't do certain things and don't work on new stuff over the summer for the upcoming season. The problem also lies in these GMs choosing "athletes" over "basketball players". Darius Miles? Athlete. Michael Redd? Basketball player. Now, where was Darius drafted and where was Redd drafted? Catch my drift?

I totally agree. I was just trying to say that I'd rather have a big man who blocks shots, demands the ball down low, and can play with his back to the front or back of the basket than a Dirk Nowitzki type guy. Notice that the Europeans have never been outstanding one-on-one defenders, which is why they rely on great team defense. Whenever they come to the NBA, where team defense is not nearly as existent, they're either average or below average defenders.

And on GMs drafting "athletes", notice how a lot of them are coming out of high school. Not only do players go to college so they can get a fine education, but they become smarter basketball players, learning the fundamentals from their coaches. If the league inflicted an age limit on the league, high schoolers would be forced to either go to college or if they want the money right away, go to Europe.

[John-John Joe]

But we've pideon-holed these players so much that they accept the fact that they can't do certain things and don't work on new stuff over the summer for the upcoming season. The problem also lies in these GMs choosing "athletes" over "basketball players". Darius Miles? Athlete. Michael Redd? Basketball player. Now, where was Darius drafted and where was Redd drafted? Catch my drift?

I totally agree. I was just trying to say that I'd rather have a big man who blocks shots, demands the ball down low, and can play with his back to the front or back of the basket than a Dirk Nowitzki type guy. Notice that the Europeans have never been outstanding one-on-one defenders, which is why they rely on great team defense. Whenever they come to the NBA, where team defense is not nearly as existent, they're either average or below average defenders.

And on GMs drafting "athletes", notice how a lot of them are coming out of high school. Not only do players go to college so they can get a fine education, but they become smarter basketball players, learning the fundamentals from their coaches. If the league inflicted an age limit on the league, high schoolers would be forced to either go to college or if they want the money right away, go to Europe.

I agree on your assessment of big men, I feel the same exact way myself. And how many of them go to Pete Newell's Big Man Camp to work on their footwork and post moves? Not many, which is exactly why we're having such a "good big man" drought in the NBA. Looking at the average big man work in the post now can make you reach for the Pepto Bismol, no footwork and just bowling over people in the post......

Your point about Euro's defense (or lack thereof) is well taken, I wouldn't even dream of implying that their players are superior to ours or more talented. But the point is that when you have guys who understand the game fully and have a high skill level you have a better "flow" to the game......

[Stevan]

It's the NBA Live syndrome, it's taking over the world! Just like in franchise mode, real life point guards have a shooting range of 15 feet and average 2.5apg. Real life centres, just like their NBA Live counterparts can only grab 4rpg, can't shoot, and only use the pro hop and dunk to score

Maybe NBA GM's will eventaull figure it out, guys like John Paxon. Kirk Hinrich is a basketball player

[Andre]

Guys, you're still not following me. We as americans (and perhaps I tend to forget that alot of my fellow Live Fanatics here are from overseas) need to get away from making guys stress one skill over another.

Yeah. IMO, when it comes to specialization, basketball has become more similar to what happens in football, many specialists, who alone don't make much sense, but that when working together they are great.
BUT, Basketball is not football, it's a more dynamic game, so too much specialization is not necesserily a good thing.

MOst of all, a team of specialists might work for a NBA team (i.e. the pistons), because players know how to play with each others and therefore can create a "whole > parts".
But it doesn't work for the US team, since there is no time to build a team chemistry.

[Rens]

1. Brent Barry
2. John Barry
3. LeBron James
4. Earl Boykins
5. Brian Cardinal
6. Andrei Kirilenko
7. Bobby Jackson
8. Yao Ming
9. Jason Kidd (despite the lousy J)
10. Robert Horry
11. Manu Ginobili

Definately making your point here that American fundamentals are slipping when Euro's are sneaking into your example lists