A REAL DREAM TEAM TEST?

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WHO WINS THIS MYTHICAL MATCH-UP OF DREAM TEAMS?

DREAM TEAM-USA [1992]
16
76%
DREAM TEAM-INTERNATIONAL [ALL-TIME]
5
24%
 
Total votes : 21

A REAL DREAM TEAM TEST?

Postby DR. P on Wed Nov 13, 2002 10:59 am

MYTHICAL MATCH-UP

Since a few people in this forum have mentioned international teams (e.g., Yugoslavia, Argentina) and their recent success against the U.S.'s latest reincarnation of the "Dream" Team, I was wondering how everyone thought the original dream team would match up against an all-time international dream team. The only catch here is that for the international team any former foreign born great can qualify. Please note that all players listed are believed to be at or near their prime [please excuse any spelling errors].

THE TALE OF THE TAPE

Here's how I see it:

Dream Team 1(USA)-1992

Head Coach: Chuck Daly
David Robinson
Barkley
Bird
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
_____________
Ewing
Drexler
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Pippen
Mullin
Leattner

VS.

International Dream Team
(World)


HEAD COACH: This year's Yugoslavia coach or 1972 Russia head Coach [take your pick]

Starting 5

C- Sabonis (USSR)
PF- Nowitski (Germany)
SF/SG- Oscar Schmidt (Brazil)
SG- Peja Staojakovic (Yugoslavia)
PG/SG- Drazen Petrovic
________________
Detlef Schrempf (Germany)
Jack Sikma
Vlade Divac (Yugoslavia)
Pau Gasol (Spain)*Just added
Toni Kukoc (Croatia)
Andrew Gaze (Australia)
Steve Nash (Canada)
Rick Smits (Dutch)
Yao Ming (China)
Turkogolu
Rick Foxx (Canada)
Muresan *probably should be removed in favor of Gasol
Sarunas Marcillonis
Emanuel Ginobili (Argentina)


THINGS TO KEEP IN MIND

Averaging an Olympic record 117.3 points a game, the [1992] USA squad won by an average of 43.8 points and the closest any opponent could come was 32 points (117-85 versus Croatia in the gold medal game)

HOW IT GOES DOWN

The way I see it, The U.S. just pulls out a close one based upon the solid perimeter shooting of the international team. Surprisingly, Nowitski gives Barkley fits in the post and outscores him, while saboins holds his own with robinson equalling his scoring and rebounding output. Schrempf and Sikma give a huge boost to the internationals off the bench, while petrovic and Jordan have a war of words while they go shot for shot up and down the court. The U.S. bench, surprisingly is rather ineffective only contributing 30 points to the teams final total. But thanks to the huge efforts by the starters (e.g., Magic, Bird, and Jordan) the U.S.A. stays in the game until the final minutes.

The way I see it, the USA goes on a late 8-0 run and finishes the game off in classic style with 2 clutch free throws by Bird that break a 98-98 tie. Bird hits the final free throw with no time remaining in regulation to give the USA dream team a 99-98 victory over the internationals.

YOUR ENDING IS WELCOMED

Please let me know if I left anyone out for the internationals and also who wins this mythical match-up in your view. In addition, please let me know what type of game you would expect from both teams [e.g., up-tempo, half-court, etc.] and how it ends?

Best,

P
Last edited by DR. P on Fri Nov 15, 2002 4:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Matthew on Wed Nov 13, 2002 2:31 pm

Like the 96 Bulls, I cant see the original dream team losing to anyone. Too deep, too talented, too much pride. Line-ups wise, I think I would have Karl Malone starting at power forward instead of Barkley. I know Sir Charles lead the team in scoring in the tournament in 92, but like you said, Nowitzki would have no real problem posting him up, and I also think he could shoot over him with no real problems.

As for the game, it would be close, but I'd predict a U.S. victory by about 10 points. Michael, Larry and Magic would control this. And just look at some of the firepower of the bench; Scottie Pippen, John Stockton, Clyde Drexler, Patrick Ewing and Barkley (if Malone is starting, of course).
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Postby air gordon on Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:07 pm

i agree that US wins. especially if you have all the US dream team players in their prime for that matchup. there you're talking about some of the greatest players of all time. they would be untouchable.
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Go international!

Postby mcbiggins on Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:35 pm

I don't think I can agree with everybody else on this one. Bird could barely play due to his bad back, Laettner was just out of college, and Magic was a year out of practice. Looking at the roster on paper is not a true indication of the quality of that squad. An international all-star squad with this many big men would give this team fits. I'm going to go with the internationals on this, just by gut feeling.

As far as that international line-up is concerned, there's some more players I'd like to add. If we're willing to put in US college players like Rick Fox or Steve Nash in because they grew up in or were born in another country, why not Hakeem, Dikembe, Tim Duncan (Virgin Islands), Nique (born in France, if you didn't know), and even Ewing (Jamaica) if you care to double up. That international team is serverly lacking in Africans! Let's replace Schmidt, Gaze, and My Giant with Hakeem, Dikembe, and Duncan.

Remember, Yao Ming is the 5th foreign born number 1 draft pick, just first to not go through the US college system. Hakeem, Ewing, Duncan, and Olawakandi were all #1 picks not born stateside.
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Postby Matthew on Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:44 pm

Well Hakeem, Duncan and Ewing have all represented the U.S., and Ewing was on the 92 team, so you can't double up. I don't think Gaze should be taken out either, he has played in alot of olympics and deserves to be there.
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A lesson in geopolitics

Postby mcbiggins on Wed Nov 13, 2002 6:15 pm

This brings up a good point. I know our sample set is small, but it seems that players from Africa or the Carribean are much more likely to naturalize and start playing for the US team. Hakeem did it, Ewing did it, and Duncan did it.

Let's compare them to someone like Vlade, who's been living in the states for about 15 years now. Why doesn't he naturalize as well? I doubt his old neighborhood in the Balkans is any nicer than the towns whre Ewing or Hakeem grew up in. Jamaica and Nigeria are, if anything, as safe if not safer to live in than anywhere in the former Yugoslavia. What makes a Vlade Divac come to America, make American dollars, and go home every summer to play ball with his countrymen when Ewing or Hakeem seem to be trying as hard as possible to be Americans. Ewing doesn't even sound Jamaican anymore. I think Dikembe is the exception here, but that might be because the Congo needs all the help it can get.
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Postby Matthew on Wed Nov 13, 2002 6:22 pm

I think it comes down to how much a person wants to assimilate, really. Each individual is raised different and has different preferences, perhaps Ewing and Duncan prefer the U.S. and Vlade prefers Yugoslavia? I think thats all it is.

Good discussion though, made me think :P
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Postby DR. P on Thu Nov 14, 2002 12:37 am

Good takes MC Bigs and NBA_fan,

The reason I left out "...Hakeem, Dikembe, Tim Duncan (Virgin Islands), Nique (born in France, if you didn't know), and even Ewing (Jamaica)..." was because they never played for their home country in an olympics. Foxx and Nash in turn did [if I recall correctly]. Gheorge and Smits may not have and they may be one of the few on that international list who don't fit my original criterion. I was really trying to be loose with restrictions without, being too generous. That's why I neglected to include guys like Erik Meek (Duke/Canada), Sean Marks [Cal/New Zealand], Kim Dang-Who [Korea], and Wang ZhiZhi (China) although Wang probably deserves some consideration [and Luc Longley (Australia) could, and probably should be on the team]. And since the Dream, TD, Nique [I believe], and Ewing played on the Dream Team at some time, I temporarily disqualified them. Dikembe is probably the lone exception here and Bigs makes a valid argument for why he should be on that international team. Yet, since he hasn't competed for an African team in the Olympics, I was hesitant to include him. Even if I did, I'd still hasten to pick against that dream team [not including members of other Dream Teams since this team was rather dominant in its own right, as I've mentioned above]. I just think the talent, despite the shortcomings that Mc Bigs outlined above, is still good enough to get them past a tough international team but not by such a lofty margin. I believe that International team gives them a tremendous fight and that USA just squaks by. But I could understand arguments both ways.

Best,

P
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Postby EGarrett on Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:21 am

Yao Ming takes Muresan's roster spot on the international team.

Tim Duncan is from the U.S. Virgin Islands...he's American. If you played on Team USA then USA claims you.

Anyway...the Dream Team...at or near their primes...slaughters the International Team by around 30. You have three of the NBA's ALL-TIME starting five at the 1, 2, 3...with absolutely dropoff when the bench comes in. The International Team meanwhile...have holes at the swing positions. Sabonis was nice...but he's it inside...he has no help on the boards against some of the greatest bangers in the history of basketball. Dirk can shoot but he's not going to fight with Sir Charles or Karl Malone...he doesn't today and he certainly won't against the Mailman of 10 years ago.

Also, the International team's offense would be one-dimensional. You can't beat the greatest defenders in the history of the game with a one dimensional offense...they'll close out to fast and they're too competitive. These guys aren't the complacent teams we've been sending out in the last 10 years...Michael and Scottie double-teamed Toni Kukoc throughout their beating of Croatia even when the game was already decided.

The Dream Team has NO weaknesses...meanwhile Stojakovic...Nowitzki...Petro...three of the International team's starters...are defensive liabilities. Stojakovic couldn't even stop Lee Nailon in the game last week...Michael Jordan in his prime would chew him up and spit him out.

Don't get your perspective messed up by the USA third-string we sent this summer. The International Team has some nice players...but the original Dream Team was the greatest team assembled in the history of sports...NO ONE beats them...not even close...and especially not a team of shooters who play zero defense...
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Postby DR. P on Thu Nov 14, 2002 10:25 am

Interesting takes as usual EG. I can definitely see how someone could postulate that Dream Team-1 would have few equals in modern basketball. I'm just curious as to how you see such a point differential (e.g., 30 pts). You don't think the game would be the least bit close considering the Internationals would probably play zone and force the USA team to shoot from the outside and then earn any insidie buckets? You don't think guys like Smits, Longley, Sabonis, Divac, or Muresan [who if I recall correctly you argued he was quite a servicable center in a prior thread] could help at all on the boards given the clear height differential they'd have over the Dream Team? You don't think they'd change any of MJ's, Magic's, or Bird's shots in the least bit? Granted they can't all be on the floor at the same time, but clearly two or even three of them could play at one time, which is a "tall" order to say the least. I agree, though, the U.S. does win, but I believe its by a much slimmer margin than what they'd been accustomed to during the 92 olympics.

Best and always a pleasure,

P
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Postby Brave Sir Rubin on Thu Nov 14, 2002 10:48 am

matchup time :D

Robisnson vs. (healthy) Sabonis

defenatly Sabonis,,,if he would have stayed healthy he could have tore Shaq apart...0-1

Dirk vs. Barkley

Dirk defenatly has the height and shooting advantage, yet Barkley will still own the boards and easily score at the paint...i say barkley rules on this one...1-1

Bird vs. Schmidt

Bird...2-1


MJ vs Peja

No words needed...3-1

Magic vs Petrovic

i'm not that familiar with Petrovic's game, yet i guess that it all depands on what you want boards or points, yet Magic would dominate any PG on the D...i'd say a tie here since i don't know petrovic's game...3.5-1.5

BENCH

0.5 per player

C- Ewing vs. Divac (ewing) 4-1.5
C- Leatner vs. Smiths (lol...smiths) 4-2
F-Malone vs Schrempf (I'd take the Shrimps over him any day...he and kerr were the two purest shooters i have ever seen...defenatly a plus over a 92 malone...4-2.5
F-Pippen vs. Kukoc...battle of the bulls...(pippen) 4.5-2.5
F-Mullin vs Fox (mullin) 5-2.5
G-Stockholm vs Nash (sadly...stockholm) 5.5-2.5
G-Drexler vs Gaze (lol...Drex) 6-2.5

the international get 0.25 points extra per every player left (just for the fun:))
7 palyers...1.75 points...

2 extra points per category

shooting- International
D- US
Depth- Inter
Team in general- US


final

US DREAM-10 points
International-8.25 (i think :))


in general the US team is better...but if thesee two teams paly...i'll put my money on the inter team...they'll just kill the US team from long range!
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Postby EGarrett on Fri Nov 15, 2002 1:31 am

DR. P wrote:Interesting takes as usual EG. I can definitely see how someone could postulate that Dream Team-1 would have few equals in modern basketball. I'm just curious as to how you see such a point differential (e.g., 30 pts).


The International Team is soft, lacks slashers and has a D like swiss cheese. They have lots of great shooters but who is going to help Sabonis in fighting for the boards? Vlade is a flop artist for a reason...Dirk and Smits are soft...Muresan was serviceable but is way out of his league here? I honestly don't know who Oscar Schmidt is but he'd better be one helluva defender because they have no one at all to stop Michael Jordan and Clyde Drexler from getting to the rack. And when they do get there...Vlade, Dirk and co. aren't shotblockers so they're not changing a layup. Sabonis might switch over but then that leaves Patrick or Robinson wide open...and besides Jordan made a habit of dunking on even the best shotblocker in the world (Mutombo) back in the day...

Meanwhile, looking over at the Dream Team...I can't find a single weakness on their roster. There's nothing they don't have. They have the game's greatest slasher of all-time in '92 Michael Jordan backed by All-NBA Clyde Drexler...they have the game's two greatest distributors of all-time at the point with Magic and Stockton. At small forward they have two guys who could outshoot the International Team's best guns in Bird and Mullin and probably the greatest perimeter defender of all-time in Scottie Pippen. Their power forwards are the two toughest and roughest bangers of all-time...Charles Barkley and Karl Malone. Barkley is also second only to Dennis Rodman on the list of the game's greatest rebounders and Karl Malone is right up there. Both of them are nasty in the post. They have two excellent jump shooting, rebounding athletic centers in Ewing and Robinson.


DR. P wrote:You don't think the game would be the least bit close considering the Internationals would probably play zone and force the USA team to shoot from the outside and then earn any insidie buckets?
Zones force ball movement...Larry and Magic are the two greatest passers of all-time at their position and Michael is second only to Oscar Robertson. Even so...if the Dream Team wanted to they could put Chris Mullin and Stockton in along with Bird, pound the ball inside to Barkley or Robinson and dare the defense to collapse on him.

[quote="DR. P"]Granted they can't all be on the floor at the same time, but clearly two or even three of them could play at one time, which is a "tall" order to say the least. I agree, though, the U.S. does win, but I believe its by a much slimmer margin than what they'd been accustomed to during the 92 olympics.[\quote]

It's simple...the Dream Team is better offensively...almost infinitely better defensively...deeper...and tougher. It's not a slight against the internationals but the Dream Team beats them and basically anyone else in a rout.
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Postby neo_177 on Fri Nov 15, 2002 2:01 am

The US Team would have the better single players, no doubt about that. But Basketball is a team sport.
Hehe, i think, the US "Dream" Team 2002 knows this since this years world championship. When the players are not a unit on the court, they loose.

there are so many circumstances that can influence the score of the game. But with all players healthy and in top-form, the mj-leaded Dream Team would win every game against everyone. Despite Shaq was not there.

Hmmm, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, T-Mac and Kidd against the Dream Team...uuuuh close thing.
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Postby tony-x on Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:36 am

International team...
Dr. P, putting Muresan instead of Deke... what the hell? the only reason Deke didn't play for his home country is that he doesn't have anybody to play with in Zaire! the criteria of picking the players solely on their international appearances is kinda off i think... oscar schmidt, i saw somebody doesn't know who he is... he's only the greatest scorer in world history (yes, scored even more than kareem in his career)...

with Deke on the team instead of Gheorghe, internationals could actually beat the Dream Team, but barely... Drazen in his prime could torch MJ, why not an aging Magic too... with Deke helping out with the boards, Dirk firing it from the arc, Schmidt kicking drexler's ass... also i'd take out mr. vanessa williams and put some italian players, like say... andrea meneghin, and instead of turkoglu i'd put dejan bodiroga...

Let's compare them to someone like Vlade, who's been living in the states for about 15 years now. Why doesn't he naturalize as well? I doubt his old neighborhood in the Balkans is any nicer than the towns whre Ewing or Hakeem grew up in. Jamaica and Nigeria are, if anything, as safe if not safer to live in than anywhere in the former Yugoslavia.


Its serbian pride, no serb would ever become an american... oh, and all of former Yugoslavia is by all means safer to live in than Nigeria... now atleast.
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Postby conkeso on Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:41 am

Yao Ming, Turkcoglu, Muresan.. and you dont select Gasol, men i was right when i thought Gasol is forgotten between Nba fans...


And Tim Duncan, Olajuwon,etc.. where they are?


add: like said above, Oscar Schmidt is the best Scorer in Basketball History.

PD #2: does anyone have European league Final match where Oscar Schdmit and Petrovic scored +60points each?
THAT HAD TO BE B-A-S-K-E-T-B-A-L-L !
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Postby DR. P on Fri Nov 15, 2002 4:44 am

Solid takes conkeso and x_x,

GASOL A "WRITE-IN" CANDIDATE

You each make valid points. And conkeso let me be the first to "write in" Gasol [I'll amend my initial post, since he should be there for sure]. This was a huge oversight on my part.

MY ENTRY CRITERION

Also, in my view, playing for you home country in the olympics should be at the very least an inital criteria for entry. I know Muresan may not have done that, nor smits, but Mu did play internationally for quite some time [cluj university I believe in college] albeit it not the Olympics.

Dikembe is a either/or proposition. I chose not to include him based on my criterion above, but I can see how an argument can be made for him.
Duncan and Hakeem not being entered, however, stems from some of the arguments made in earlier posts. It just seems like Hakeem and Tim spent more time playing in the U.S. than anywhere else, so I excluded them based on this admittedly loose criterion.

OSCAR IS NO ABERRATION AND DESERVES A STARTING SPOT

As you can see, Conkeso, I'm very familiar with Schmidt and the Brazilian team whom many NBA players (e.g., Ewing) have admitted to playing against one on one in the offseason [some with a thorough behind kicking from "The Holy Hand" as he's affectionately nicknamed] . That's why I have Schmidt as a starter on the team.

THIS MAY BE A BIT OF A STRETCH TO MANY HERE

Drazen in his prime could torch MJ


This statement, I'm sure, will be challenged by some posters here. I loved watching Petrovic prior to his premature death, but I wonder whether a prime Drazen "torches" MJ. This could be a thread within itself, but suffice to say that Jordan would have his hands full if Petrovic was on top of his game.

Great posts. Keep them coming.

Best,

P
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Postby tony-x on Fri Nov 15, 2002 1:04 pm

DR. P wrote:
Drazen in his prime could torch MJ


This statement, I'm sure, will be challenged by some posters here. I loved watching Petrovic prior to his premature death, but I wonder whether a prime Drazen "torches" MJ. This could be a thread within itself, but suffice to say that Jordan would have his hands full if Petrovic was on top of his game.


my bad there, i should've put would instead of could, since Drazen sadly never really reached his full potential... :(

but if he did, sure, he could torch the NBA's best. but we will never know...
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Postby Gaucho on Fri Nov 15, 2002 1:45 pm

just give the ball to Mully and pound 3's from that short range jumper FIBA 3pt lane :P
It works, did it on NBA hangtime and went 25/25 :P

if u like u can put Tim Hardaway to push Muresan down too...
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