Shaq still in Orlando.......Shaq & Wade

[Wormy10]

If Shaq never went to the Lakers.....and Penny was in his prime.....would Orlando be a Championship team today?

Also.....Will Shaq and Wade make Miami a Championship contender this year or in the near future?

Question #1 I think its possible....but for #2 i dont think its gonna happen

[MaD_hAND1e]

hmmm..... I think, if Penny was in his prime with Shaq with the Magic, if they had a good supporting cast, they would definately win the east, not sure about the championship though. However, I would think that McGrady would've still gone to Orlando, had Penny and Shaq stayed with the Magic (since Shaq and TMac are such good friends and all). McGrady and Penny could probably have coexisted because Penny was never a selfish player and he had great court vision (wasn't he compared to Magic Johnson but with better scoring ability at one point in his career?)
If the Magic did have those 3 guys, and a solid bench, then I think they would have definately won the championships every year since 2000

[Wormy10]

That's a very good answer and i couldnt agree with you more...but what about question #2 ? lol about Shaq and Wade

[Andrew]

I think that the Bulls would have a found a way to foil them again in 1997 and 1998 if Shaq and Penny remained together in Orlando, but they most likely would have been champions within a couple of years after the breakup of the Bulls, quite possibly the very next season.

Miami has become a popular choice for a title contender in the East, and I must admit that my opinion has been swayed by Shaq's return to Florida. I think that many of us are probably overrating the Heat a little bit, but as long as they round out their roster with some good role players, it might not be an unrealitic suggestion.

Perhaps it's placing too much stock in Shaq's desire for revenge and drive to prove the Lakers made a mistake in being so willing to deal him away, but I think it's a definite possibility that they will come close to the title, most probably a close defeat in the Eastern Conference Finals.

[Homer]

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[J@3]

I think that many of us are probably overrating the Heat a little bit, but as long as they round out their roster with some good role players, it might not be an unrealitic suggestion.

Exactly, people are assuming that Shaqs' presence alone is enough to win the Heat the championship. It's not. He might be the most dominant player in the NBA but that doesn't mean he can take any team and win a championship with them. He needs more than just Dwyane Wade helping him out, I mean he just came from a team with Kobe Bryant, Gary Payton and Karl Malone as his support and they didn't win anything... that being said, no one really knows what Shaq would do if he recieved the ball as often as he should... it's gonna be really interesting.

Back on topic...

If the Magic did have those 3 guys, and a solid bench, then I think they would have definately won the championships every year since 2000

If those three guys were on a team together with Penny in his prime I highly doubt there'd be a need for a solid bench.

Edit: "they didn't win anything".. meaning last season.

[-BHZMAFIA-]

Penny is my favorite player. I remember watching him all the time back in Orlando and he could've stayed a star player if he never would've got hurt. I hate that he got hurt, but he is still doing good.

[FanOfAll]

If Shaq never went to the Lakers.....and Penny was in his prime.....would Orlando be a Championship team today?

Nope, I can see at most one championship somewhere around '96, '97, but not in the 2003-2004.

Also.....Will Shaq and Wade make Miami a Championship contender this year or in the near future?

Question #1 I think its possible....but for #2 i dont think its gonna happen

I think both. I honestly consider all teams a championship contender, just to what degree. I think the Heat are serious contenders, but I don't think they'll make it. Eventually, either Shaq will come back with more depth around him and a more experienced Wade or he'll go off the books for a lot of cap space, which can be used for to build a championship contender in the "near future," a very relative term. Also depends on how good Riles is.

[Bill Russell]

#1: Yes, if Penny didn't have injuries, quite possible

#2: For the next 2/3 seasons, yes... Past that, likely not happening... They could use his huge salary which would come off the books to sign some good FA's

[Robby]

I think that the Bulls would have a found a way to foil them again in 1997 and 1998 if Shaq and Penny remained together in Orlando, but they most likely would have been champions within a couple of years after the breakup of the Bulls, quite possibly the very next season.

I'd have to disagree with you on that one. If that core group from 1996 was together and healthy, they would have beaten Chicago at least once in the playoffs. When Orlando got swept in 1996, Horace Grant didn't play in Games 3 and 4 and Nick Anderson missed Game 4. In 95 when the Bulls lost, Grant had a great series. Shaq even called him the MVP of the team.

As for the Magic's supporting cast, this is where people's true NBA knowhow comes in. In 1996 Orlando won 60 games and Shaq only played in 54 games that entire year. Now just think what would have happened had Shaq played just 70 games. That's 16 more games he plays lets bo very conservative and say the Magic break even. So, Orlando would be at 68 wins (Maybe you should take this into account for your 1996 patch Andrew). I'd say they were a lot closer to beating Chicago than people give them credit for. It's unfortunate Shaq left because Magic-Bulls showdowns in the playoffs would have been a lot of fun to watch.

[Micchy_boy]

1. If Shaq stay in Orlando and Penny have injury-free career? , yap they might win the championship. but i not today maybe 98 or 99 (96-97 goes to bulls).

However, I would think that McGrady would've still gone to Orlando, had Penny and Shaq stayed with the Magic

i dont think t-mac goes to orlando coz the money you will pay t-mac will be consumed by shaq. remember they got a lot of salary cap coz shaq was in La and i guess penny got traded, making them lured free agent like hill and t-mac.

2. maybe or maybe not. i dont see miami winning it this season maybe 2 or 3 years from now. or maybe after shaq retire.

[Matthew]

If that core group from 1996 was together and healthy, they would have beaten Chicago at least once in the playoffs. When Orlando got swept in 1996, Horace Grant didn't play in Games 3 and 4 and Nick Anderson missed Game 4. In 95 when the Bulls lost, Grant had a great series. Shaq even called him the MVP of the team.

Yeah when Mike wasn't 23 and Dennis Rodman wasnt there... the season after, they had injuries, so what? Kukoc and Pippen were hurting as well. Kukoc had a horrible playoffs until the finals, but i bet you didnt take that into account either . Dennis Scott wasn't the player he used to be after the 96 series either.. so you're trying to tell me, despite the decline of penny and scott, and anderson, that the Magic would still be able to beat imo the best team in nba history... sorry im not buying into that.

As for the Magic's supporting cast, this is where people's true NBA knowhow comes in. In 1996 Orlando won 60 games and Shaq only played in 54 games that entire year. Now just think what would have happened had Shaq played just 70 games. That's 16 more games he plays lets bo very conservative and say the Magic break even. So, Orlando would be at 68 wins

your adding 16 games(to be played) on top of the 60 they already won, so that isn't credible, sorry. It would be like me saying, in 1995 the bulls won 47 games, so if jordan played 30 more games, the bulls if they were only to break even, would have 15 more wins which equates to a 62 win season, and best in the nba...

[MaD_hAND1e]

1. If Shaq stay in Orlando and Penny have injury-free career? , yap they might win the championship. but i not today maybe 98 or 99 (96-97 goes to bulls).

However, I would think that McGrady would've still gone to Orlando, had Penny and Shaq stayed with the Magic

i dont think t-mac goes to orlando coz the money you will pay t-mac will be consumed by shaq. remember they got a lot of salary cap coz shaq was in La and i guess penny got traded, making them lured free agent like hill and t-mac.

Well, I'm just making judgement on the present, since T-Mac said he wanted to be on the same team as Shaq, so.... yea.... but I guess you could be right, since, at that stage of his career, I'd think T-Mac wanted a big salary and have a team of his own, but you never know, maybe he wouldn't mind settling for a lower salary and playing on a team with Shaq? Having said that, maybe T-Mac would've only become a solid role player because he gets limited touches with Penny and Shaq on the team? I thought Grant Hill was traded to the Magic for Chucky Atkins and Ben Wallace??? Anyway, Orlando wouldn't have made that trade for Hill. That means Big Ben would be on the Magic with Shaq!! (not really that unrealistic, since Wallace wasn't drafted and didn't have a break out season until he went to Detroit)

As for the second question, I think that Wade is definately going to benefit from having Shaq in the middle drawing all the attention. Last season, Wade got most of his points driving inside, so next season, he would have less attention on him in the middle because Shaq is there and he has an extra option of passing it off to Shaq. I'm not sure that they can win a championship though. Detroit is going to be a tough contender for the East, and after seeing the job they did with the Lakers and Shaq in the finals, I think that the Pistons can really hinder Shaq's production on the offensive end. (Or maybe it was something to do with Shaq not getting enough touches?? ) hmmm... I'm not sure, but I think Miami would have to get used to a pretty depleted Starting 5

[Robby]

Yeah when Mike wasn't 23 and Dennis Rodman wasnt there... the season after, they had injuries, so what? Kukoc and Pippen were hurting as well. Kukoc had a horrible playoffs until the finals, but i bet you didnt take that into account either . Dennis Scott wasn't the player he used to be after the 96 series either.. so you're trying to tell me, despite the decline of penny and scott, and anderson, that the Magic would still be able to beat imo the best team in nba history... sorry im not buying into that.

They had injuries, so what? Are you kidding me? Kukoc and Pippen had injuries but they could at least play with them unlike Grant and some other Magic players. So your Rodman wasn't there argument could just as easily be used for Grant not being there in 96. MJ wasn't himself in 95 but he wasn't exactly terrible either. As for Kukoc having a bad playoffs, that wasn't all due to his injury, he really had bad games. I'm not sure what Penny's decline was in 96 or the years after, he just got hurt and in the beginning we said what would have happened had Penny stayed healthy. As for the 96 Bulls being the best team in NBA history, I dispute because in my opinion they 97 version was better but that is a discussion for another time.

your adding 16 games(to be played) on top of the 60 they already won, so that isn't credible, sorry. It would be like me saying, in 1995 the bulls won 47 games, so if jordan played 30 more games, the bulls if they were only to break even, would have 15 more wins which equates to a 62 win season, and best in the nba...

There's nothing wrong with either of those arguments. I'm not sure why you dispute that.

[Matthew]

They had injuries, so what? Are you kidding me? Kukoc and Pippen had injuries but they could at least play with them unlike Grant and some other Magic players.

Did you see Pippen against the Knicks that year? He really struggled and looked like he shouldnt have been playing. Kukoc did miss games too.. its such a stupid thing to say "if such and such werent injured"... however i do agree it wouldve been interesting. But Kukoc wasn't anywhere near his best that series, and same with Pippen. If you're going to throw the "what if" arguement out there, you have to do it both ways.

So your Rodman wasn't there argument could just as easily be used for Grant not being there in 96. MJ wasn't himself in 95 but he wasn't exactly terrible either

I never said Mike was terrible in 95, but he was back to his oldself in 96. But my whole point about jordan not quite being jordan and rodman not being there is legit, becuase it was a different bulls team. The improved play of MJ and Rodman made them the very best ever, so the Magic beating a different bulls team doesnt mean they wouldve enjoyed the same success if Horace Grant was healthy

As for Kukoc having a bad playoffs, that wasn't all due to his injury, he really had bad games

I think alot of it did. Who was put on Kukoc when he came off the bench? Donald Royal? I hardly think he would've slowed Kukoc down.. Just remember what Toni did in the finals, against a better defensive team.

I'm not sure what Penny's decline was in 96 or the years after, he just got hurt and in the beginning we said what would have happened had Penny stayed healthy.

OK I'll settle for that, but the Bulls wouldn't have that hard of a time slowing Penny down. Pippen was a great defender, maybe the best perimeter defender ever. If he wasn't, then MJ was. Harper was a stella defender too. Nick Anderson was already a shell, and Dennis Scott disapeared after the 96 series with the bulls... I cant see how, the magic with just shaq, penny and horace grant and pretty much nothing else would have beaten the bulls... i just dont see it happening.

There's nothing wrong with either of those arguments. I'm not sure why you dispute that.

It's simple..."As for the Magic's supporting cast, this is where people's true NBA knowhow comes in. In 1996 Orlando won 60 games and Shaq only played in 54 games that entire year. Now just think what would have happened had Shaq played just 70 games. That's 16 more games he plays lets bo very conservative and say the Magic break even. So, Orlando would be at 68 wins"
Thats what you said. Now the magic won 60 games, and played in 82. Your saying the magic would have won 8 more games if shaq played in 16 more, so thats saying they would have played in 98 games! See how it doesn't make sense?

[J@3]

'Nuff said.

[Andrew]

Horace Grant's absence certainly may have contributed to the sweep, but I still think the Bulls could find a way to get past the Magic with Shaq and Penny together. I cannot prove that conclusively because it's merely my opinion of a hypothetical situation.

I suppose the Magic might have possibly beaten the Bulls at least once, preventing the repeat threepeat (I'm assuming that's what you meant, not that they'd simply avoid a sweep), but consider that the Bulls managed to advance past familiar foes such as the Knicks and Cavaliers - sometimes with the series going the distance - throughout the 90s.

And although they pushed the Bulls to the limit in six game series against the Bulls during the 97 and 98 Finals, the Utah Jazz still fell two years in a row. It is because of those examples (as well as my own bias ) that I feel that the Magic wouldn't necessarily defeat Chicago should they remain together and stay healthy. Like the other top teams in the league during the 90s they would have a chance and we could devise ways for each team to do so. But ultimately, I think they would be easier said than done.

[Fresh8]

If T-mac and VC were together in Toronto...would they have played in the NBA Finals in 00 and 01???

[Andrew]

They were together during the 1999/2000 season, so no. I'd have to say possibly in regards to the 2001 Finals. They certainly could have been in the Eastern Conference Finals that season.

[fgrep15]

They were together during the 1999/2000 season, so no. I'd have to say possibly in regards to the 2001 Finals. They certainly could have been in the Eastern Conference Finals that season.

Remember one shot away from making the Eastern conference finals, where they would've played the Bucks who they could've beaten.
If the Raptors had Carter and Tmac, they would likely have beaten the Sixers, and would likely have gone to the NBA finals.

[Jackal]

Only to be beaten by LA.

[Andrew]

They were together during the 1999/2000 season, so no. I'd have to say possibly in regards to the 2001 Finals. They certainly could have been in the Eastern Conference Finals that season.

Remember one shot away from making the Eastern conference finals, where they would've played the Bucks who they could've beaten.
If the Raptors had Carter and Tmac, they would likely have beaten the Sixers, and would likely have gone to the NBA finals.

Like I said, they certainly could have made it to the conference finals that season.

[magius]

there is no doubt in my mind that wherever shaq could've hypothetically ended up playing had he not ended up in la he still would've won at least one championship and quite possibly more. In my mind as long as he had some average players to hit the open shot his career would've been equally succesful anywhere else. if shaq is even a fourth the old shaq dwayne wade is gonna have a damn right helluva lot more space is alls im gonna say, and seems to me that as long as you don't have a rusty 9 foot rod up your ass and a half inch monkey most people get along with shaq (yes, sometimes he's dumb in the media, but aw shucks, you gotta admit he seems personable and not in a facade public famous person way) wades a lucky sonofabitch

[Andrew]

I'll be the first to admit that I don't care for some of the comments that he makes, and that I have often felt that he underestimates some of his opponents (especially earlier in his career). That said, I've always enjoyed his goofy side and cannot deny his impact on the game and importance to a team. I still vote for him in the All-Star balloting every year.

[Matt]

Shaq says his only threat in the East in J Oneal. Need he be reminded that Detroit kicked his ass. Sure he dominated but its a TEAM game. He pays no respect...sooner or later he will be humbled