Yao - the most overrated all star starter ever

[- Ace -]

This 7-6 center is supposed to be averaging at least 20, 10, and 2 but so far is just averaging 16, 9, and 1.8. An all star center should be averaging more than that. Looking at the league leaders in scoring at the center position, only Shaq, Dirk and Duncan are scoring more. Too bad Dirk and Duncan are counted as fowards on the voting ballot so Yao only has to compete with less popular centers such as Dampier and Divac. I guess there are no good centers in the NBA anymore, so someone who just averages 16 an 9 is good enough to be an All Star starter. If he wasn't an Asian he probably would never get voted to start and no one would be talking about him because 16 and 9 is pretty average. All stars are supposed to dominate games but if u look at Yao he takes half of the games off. And its not just about Francis and Mobley taking all the shots, because his rebounds and blocks are also low too.

If you look at the numbers, there's no way Yao deserves to be on the All-star team and his selection as a starter is undeserving.

[fgrep15]

Yea but the fans voted so there's nothing we can do about that and complaining about it is just futile.

[Matthew]

I'm waiting for people to blame this on stevie franchise.. I agree with yao being overated. Yes he has potential, and yes he has skills for his size (unlike shawn bradley).. But to me, he's just a rik smits atm. Thats not a huge knock becuase Rik was a really good centre, played well against patrick ewing many times.

Shaq not being a starter again is pretty fucked up imo

[Andrew]

Too bad Dirk and Duncan are counted as fowards on the voting ballot so Yao only has to compete with less popular centers such as Dampier and Divac.

And Shaq. I'm really surprised how Yao edged Shaq this year. Shaq had more electronic votes, but Yao had more paper ballots. I thought it would have been the other way around.

It's hard to say whether players deserve to start in the All-Star game. Even if their numbers are inferior to other players at their position, the starting lineups are comprised of players who the fans want to see. Therefore, popularity often outweights production.

So I guess Yao deserves to start given that he's popular and a lot of people want to see him at the game as a starter. But based on production, most people would give the starting job to Shaq, myself included. I'm not a Shaq fan, but his numbers are superior and he's capable of throwing down some spectacular dunks. His play and his ability to entertain make him deserving of perennial All-Star status (he is of course on the team), starting for each All-Star team he's selected to. But Yao's become very popular, so it looks like it will be a close race as long as they're both in the league.

[MaD_hAND1e]

I don't think he is underated. If you actually watch Rockets games, Yao is just a little too unselfish and not as aggressive. You were saying how he only gets 16, 9 and 1 and how most all star centers should get 20, 10 and 2, but Yao is getting 16 when he passes the ball out most of the time, unlike Shaq who only passes when he gets doubled

[fgrep15]

Yea but Shaq is killing him in assists points, block and rebounds, and is only playing 2 more minutes. Shaq is also only taking 2 more shots per game.

Also Shaq basically always gets doubled, you can't expect him to always pass. Yao needs to be way more agressive, mann Shawn Bradley is a better blocker than he is, thats not really a big thing, but Yao's gotta get at least 2 a game.

[Amphatoast]

geez, give the sophomore a break! He is getting more and more popular now and Shaq has been on and off this season with injuries. I personally think Shaq should be the starter since he is Shaq and just so dominating, but people might of grew tired of seeing Shaq now. All the Laker haters that came up when the Lakers were winning titles might be the ones making the difference in these votings.[/b]

[wangster]

Being of Chinese background, I am a big fan of Yao but I do feel Shaq deserved to start over him hands down. And I must admit I'm a bit diappointed with Yao's numbers this year... I thought he would average at least 10 rebounds and 2 blocks. BUT as amphatoast said, it is only his second year and he has a lot of time, room, and potential to grow. a 7foot5 guy with a real feel for the game is very difficult to come by and given more time, I have faith he will become a very dominant player in the league. He showed flashes of his potential dominance in that game against Orlando and that stretch of games in January where he consistently put up 20+ and 10+. Tonight against San Antonio, he did quite well going 11 of 16 from the field for 25 pts. I think he will get better and become worthy of starting for the All-star team.

I really think what he's lacking is that killer instinct you can only develop from the playgrounds of US. A lot of time you see him mishandle easy rebounds and lose his balance while fighting for post positions and such. He doesn't have that fluidity and "precise" ferocity that you see in the American superstars, if you get my drift. And yes, he needs to be more aggressive... I think he needs to become much more beastly than he is right now if he wants to become a truly great center in this league.

But he'll get there... I think.......or hope.

[1CenT]

I like watching Yao more than Shaq
i like seeing him hit a 20 foot jumper and doing fadeaways over outstretched arms of Duncan (tonight)
Watching Rockets game.. i don't get how Yao averages only 16 points..
Everytime i watch him.. he scored his career high, then today with 25 points? He is unselfish.. he barely even gets teh ball.. once every 4-5 times down the floor.. and he passes up half the opportunity..
He is all-star for sure.. I love watching him, i saw him do a few tip passes after he got the ball, it was great..

Shaq is best center in the game
Yao in maybe 2-3 years will get his 22/10/2
His shot blocking isn't that great, but he changes lots of shots.. If you watch him.. he isn't aggressive enough..

[Nel]

Yao's shotblocking is terrible because of his short arms.. I also don't like seeing him starting over shaq in the all-star game. This makes the game boring because yao is not that type of player that gets the crowed pumped up. Off-topic: Steve Francis is also not deserving to be an all-star. He's lucky that there are only few good point-guards in the west..

[Matthew]

well then you coul also say ben wallace isnt deserving of an all star birth either, becuase of the lack of big guys in the east...

[Nel]

Yeah.. The lack of good centers in the east gives him the chance to be an all-star. I bet if mourning was still playing you won't see wallace on the all-stars...

[benji]

Yao should be on the All-Star team after him and Shaq there is nobody else deserving except Brad Miller (since we swich him and Dirk) and he doesn't top Yao. Dampier and Divac are definately 5th and 6th (though not necessarily Dampier = 5, Divac = 6...I could definately agree with switching them, Divac's a defensive stopper and Dampier isn't that would make up the difference, in my opinion) in terms of Centers. Yao deserves to go and the anti-Shaq bias/LA apathy pushes him over in the voting so he starts.

Off-topic: Steve Francis is also not deserving to be an all-star. He's lucky that there are only few good point-guards in the west..

Actually, he's lucky that fans only care about dunks and not basketball. Francis is no better than the 60th-75th range in terms of players in the league. And there are a lot better point guards in the West, off the top of my head Sam Cassell (that he's not starting = tragedy), Mike Bibby, Andre Miller, Bobby Jackson, Carlos Arroyo, Steve Nash, Gary Payton, Antonio Daniels and Jason Williams.

[fgrep15]

Actually, he's lucky that fans only care about dunks and not basketball. Francis is no better than the 60th-75th range in terms of players in the league. And there are a lot better point guards in the West, off the top of my head Sam Cassell (that he's not starting = tragedy), Mike Bibby, Andre Miller, Bobby Jackson, Carlos Arroyo, Steve Nash, Gary Payton, Antonio Daniels and Jason Williams.

You mean in ranking, there's no way he's 60-75th, not that I'm a Francis fan, but if you just go and take a look at the players and make some rough ranking you'll see.

[Jackal]

Believe me, he's done it..and as far as I've seen, its pretty accurate (statistic wise eh!).

[PoliceLineDoNotCross]

francis is doing better at passing the ball now that they got van gundy but they really need to feed YAO the ball almost as much as SHAQ gets it. With that, he may finally get 20-10-3 stats. (3 is blocks). Francis is a great athelete but he is not a great player so he has to improve his team skills in order for YAO and the team to succeed. I think Dampier and Miller deserve to be in the ALL star Game. if only they were in the east where they lack too many centers. In the east, Miller made it and Dampier could edge out wallace or zydrunas.

[Matthew]

Actually, he's lucky that fans only care about dunks and not basketball. Francis is no better than the 60th-75th range in terms of players in the league. And there are a lot better point guards in the West, off the top of my head Sam Cassell (that he's not starting = tragedy), Mike Bibby, Andre Miller, Bobby Jackson, Carlos Arroyo, Steve Nash, Gary Payton, Antonio Daniels and Jason Williams.

Lol Stats arent everything. You can have Antonio Daniels, Carlos arroyo or Bobby Jackson, But I'll take Stevie Franics every time over those guys

[benji]

I'd take Francis over Arroyo and Daniels as well. However we don't base the All-Star game on career performance or past years, we base it on this year and this year Francis has not out played Arroyo and Daniels. The point is that Steve Francis should be nowhere near the All-Star Game.

You mean in ranking, there's no way he's 60-75th, not that I'm a Francis fan, but if you just go and take a look at the players and make some rough ranking you'll see.

Since it's harder than copy and paste, this only makes a 28% account for defense (which is why Ben Wallace sits at the bottom)...I will produce a more accurate ranking that properly accounts for defense at a later date:

Code: Select all

1   K. Garnett
2   T. Duncan
3   S. O'Neal
4   E. Brand
5   T. McGrady
6   R. Allen
7   P. Stojakovic
8   S. Cassell
9   J. O'Neal
10   K. Bryant
11   S. Abdur-Rahim
12   P. Pierce
13   A. Kirilenko
14   B. Davis
15   Y. Ming
16   Z. Randolph
17   D. Nowitzki
18   P. Gasol
19   C. Maggette
20   J. Kidd
21   A. Iverson
22   K. Malone
23   V. Carter
24   S. Marbury
25   M. Redd
26   K. Martin
27   A. Jamison
28   B. Miller
29   M. Bibby
30   A. Miller
31   D. Marshall
32   S. Marion
33   C. Billups
34   R. Artest
35   R. Lewis
36   Z. Ilgauskas
37   B. Jackson
38   S. Nash
39   C. Boozer
40   C. Arroyo
41   L. James
42   K. Van Horn
43   R. Wallace
44   G. Payton
45   S. Swift
46   A. Stoudemire
47   L. Odom
48   M. Ginobili
49   A. Walker
50   R. Hamilton
51   J. Richardson
52   G. Arenas
53   E. Dampier
54   L. Hughes
55   E. Jones
56   J. Williams
57   M. Harping
58   A. Houston
59   J. Crawford
60   A. Daniels
61   D. Wade
62   B. Barry
63   V. Divac
64   M. Okur
65   R. Jefferson
66   C. Anthony
67   D. Gadzuric
68   B. Cardinal
69   G. Robinson
70   M. Finley
71   Q. Richardson
72   S. Francis
73   S. Medvedenko
74   T. Thomas
75   B. Wallace

[fgrep15]

I'm not talking about effeciency, offensive/ defensive rate etc. I'm talking about who would benefit a team more, I mean KVH is up there but would you ever take KVH over Francis to lead a team, or Stromile Swift, Medvendenko, Tim Thomas etc you know.

If you think of the NBA's best players, which doesn't always mean most efficent players, or players who's offensive and defensive rate's superceed others, Francis wouldn't be that low.

[Drex]

If you think of the NBA's best players, which doesn't always mean most efficent players, or players who's offensive and defensive rate's superceed others, Francis wouldn't be that low.

And how would you define NBA's best players???
I don't see how can you have a great player who score 20 points but allows 25.

[fgrep15]

No Im saying that some players can put up numbers but still lose, and we can't know how many points his allowing cause no one keeps the stat points allowed per player per game. You also can't make that stat by saying Francis scores 35 vs Atlanta therefore he scores 35 vs Jason Terry, because Terry won't guard him all day, it might be Terry he scores on, he can also score on free throws etc.

Then there are the guys that can score well only when placed with a star player, and alone can't create for themselves and score. Also in ranking defense stats aren't the way to go, since Bruce Bowen is a great defender yet he doesn't get 2 steals and a block per game. Iverson is average and even maybe bellow average as an on ball defender, but he gets steals like a mad man. All those things come in play.

[benji]

I'm not talking about effeciency, offensive/ defensive rate etc. I'm talking about who would benefit a team more

So instead of talking about something that we can measure, you talk about something completely subjective that cannot be proven either way...

I mean KVH is up there but would you ever take KVH over Francis to lead a team, or Stromile Swift, Medvendenko, Tim Thomas etc you know.

I wouldn't take anyone outside the top 29 to lead a team...

No Im saying that some players can put up numbers but still lose

Like Francis most of his career?

Also in ranking defense stats aren't the way to go, since Bruce Bowen is a great defender yet he doesn't get 2 steals and a block per game. Iverson is average and even maybe bellow average as an on ball defender, but he gets steals like a mad man. All those things come in play.

I know, which is why it's only at 28% because only the chance-defense is currently incorporated as the position-defense is best done at the end of the season because it takes time.

[fgrep15]

I know what you mean but I think its accurate but also innacurate, I mean Brad Miller, Donyell Marshall, Arroyo, Harpring, Daniels, Brent Barry, Brian Cardinal, Divac, Okur, Gadzuric etc can't really be called better players than Francis

We also know that per 48 mins stats aren't completely accurate because fatigue, a players touches, fouls etc will affect a player stats, so a guy might not get as many blocks, rebounds, points and all that if he really played those minutes.

I can even add others that through efficiency are "better" than Francis, Richard Jefferson, Dwyane Wade (its like mini francis, he's not better yet), Jamal Crawford, Eric Dampier, Stromile Swift, Van Horn, Ginobili, Larry Hughes ( I dunno)
..........

[Matthew]

see fgrep, thats the problems with stats. They can be used to twist around anything man. Hell, ben can use stats to "prove" that carmelo would be detrimental to the pistons, and darko is more helpfull now to them, but in reality every true nba fan knows what rubbish this is... same with this arguement.
Basic stats are good, but all this efficentcy rating stuff can go lick a geeks balls, becuase to a point, its irrelivent and dumb when according to it Harpring, Daniels, Brent Barry, Brian Cardinal, Divac, Okur, Gadzuric are better players than stevie franchise.

Francis is an allstar, so is yao and ben wallace. Does Francis deserve to be there?No... but neither does big ben or yao.

[benji]

I know what you mean but I think its accurate but also innacurate, I mean Brad Miller, Donyell Marshall, Arroyo, Harpring, Daniels, Brent Barry, Brian Cardinal, Divac, Okur, Gadzuric etc can't really be called better players than Francis

They are out playing him this season.

We also know that per 48 mins stats aren't completely accurate because fatigue, a players touches, fouls etc will affect a player stats, so a guy might not get as many blocks, rebounds, points and all that if he really played those minutes.

When players get more minutes they increase in production.

see fgrep, thats the problems with stats. They can be used to twist around anything man. Hell, ben can use stats to "prove" that carmelo would be detrimental to the pistons, and darko is more helpfull now to them, but in reality every true nba fan knows what rubbish this is... same with this arguement.

Also, in reality, everyone knows you are a liar. What I proved was that Carmelo would be deterimental to the Detroit Pistons over Tayshaun Prince because of his poor-shooting and non-existant defense. I never said Darko was more helpful now and instead said that Darko could be better in the end and that is what Joe Dumars is betting on. The claim you just made is an outright lie and you should be ashamed that you had to lie to attempt to drag down the validity of things I say.

Basic stats are good, but all this efficentcy rating stuff can go lick a geeks balls, becuase to a point, its irrelivent and dumb

This shows how unworthwhile you are. Basic stats are good while detailed stats that actually show how well players do things are irrelevant and dumb?

Sounds like someone is simply are afraid their ill-conceived and wrong preconceptions from the ESPN NBA will be proven wrong.

when according to it Harpring, Daniels, Brent Barry, Brian Cardinal, Divac, Okur, Gadzuric are better players than stevie franchise.

Where does it say that? Where? Nowhere. What does the list say? It says, that, according to FIVE seperate and different production/efficency ratings that Steve Francis is having a bad year and that Matt Harpring (who is down this year), Antonio Daniels, Brent Barry, Brian Cardinal, Vlade Divac, Mehmet Okur, Dan Gadzuric and 64 other players are outperforming Steve Francis when they are on the floor.

Nowhere does it say that those seventy-one players are better than Francis. It says they are outperforming Francis THIS YEAR. Not all time, not forever, THIS YEAR. The same ranking system places Francis leagues higher last season and ranks him as a TOP FIVE Point Guard last season. Below Cassell, Kidd, Nash and Payton and in a dead even tie with Stephon Marbury. I doubt these "true NBA fans" you speak of disagrees with that placement.

Does Francis deserve to be there?No... but neither does big ben or yao.

Yes, Ming and Wallace do. Since Wallace is listed as a center we will place him there (with only 28% account for defense mind you), and when we do (and only allow players who have played half of potential minutes since we expect only starter minute players to go), he becomes second best in the East after Ilgauskas. Yao Ming is second behind Shaq at Center, only Dirk Nowitzki is close and he's at forward on the ballot. However Francis is still stuck behind Cassell, Bibby, Miller, and Nash. And unless we're putting five point guards on the All-Star Team (leaving off players like Kobe, Kirilenko, Randolph, Nowitzki, Gasol, Maggette, etc.) Francis doesn't make the cut.