Darco carrer night!!!

by **bballer22** on Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:57 pm

Darko Milicic had a carrer night vs the Jazz http://www.nba.com/games/20031221/UTADET/boxscore.html
WOW!! he's getting better every game!!!!??

anyway whats up with Lopez getting 51 min???

by **Matthew** on Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:19 pm

Yeah Joe Dumars sure was right in taking Dracula over Carmelo or Chris bosh..

by **Dramacydal** on Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:21 pm

lol, what amazing stats, he played a career high 6 (!) mins and had a career high 3 (!!) points, lmao, thats so whack

by **Jackal** on Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:45 pm

What's the point of this thread?

by **Stevan** on Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:48 pm

That's it! Enough with the Darko hating. I'm PM'ing the mods, along with my online gangster friends! All your accounts are belong to us!

:lol:

Darko is going to make you all look like fools one day! This ain't no Kwame Brown!

by **GloveGuy** on Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:05 am

4 fouls in 6 minutes...

Thats disgusting

by **Vins15** on Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:40 am

lol...i though Darko was scoring maybe like 20...but 3 pts in 6 minutes that's halirious :lol:

by **fgrep15** on Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:51 am

NBA_Fan_23 wrote:Yeah Joe Dumars sure was right in taking Dracula over Carmelo or Chris bosh..

people have go to understand that any other team in that situation would have take probably melo and then 3rd pick would have been Darko, Toronto was dissapointed that they got Bosh so no criticism should be put on Dumars, and if Bosh was on the pistons he wouldn't play as much but for sure he would play more than Darko b/c he's a fundementally sound and a smart player.

and its not like Detroit was a lottery team anyways so who cares, he could pick Jarvis Hayes ah well its still higher than their real first round pick

by **Jackal** on Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:06 am

Ya'll shouldnt be talking like this 2004's Finals MVP...(according to Ben that is...)

by **Vins15** on Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:56 am

Psycho Jackal wrote:Ya'll shouldnt be talking like this 2004's Finals MVP...(according to Ben that is...)

lol but seriously he's a bust..i know it...

by **Jackal** on Tue Dec 23, 2003 5:02 am

Hmm, seriously, I don't know...I haven't seen him play to judge...I'll reserve my prediction (if he's a bust or not) for later.

by **Matthew** on Tue Dec 23, 2003 6:41 am

people have go to understand that any other team in that situation would have take probably melo and then 3rd pick would have been Darko, Toronto was dissapointed that they got Bosh so no criticism should be put on Dumars, and if Bosh was on the pistons he wouldn't play as much but for sure he would play more than Darko b/c he's a fundementally sound and a smart player.

I think plenty of critisim has to be on Dumars until Dracula starts to play better. The way I see it, Detroit isn't really a contendor when they dont have a legitimate goto guy down the strecth. In 2002, they lost to boston in the conference semi finals in 5 games becuase of their scoring, same again last year by this time to the nets and in 4 games. Just imagine if they did have Melo, they could have Chauncey seting things up, either going down low to Elden Campbell or Corliss Williamson or even Mehmet Okur, then you have Ripchard Hamilton running off screens similar to Reggie, and then if things break down (like they have in the past for detroit) they can clear out and put the ball in the hands of Carmelo and let him break down his man one on one.
Thats really all detroit needs to make themselves into a contendor imo, but instead they took Darko who isnt going to help them for at least 2 or 3 more years. So you tell me if dumars is such a genius, considering they could be contendors and they couldve taken a much better player now in melo with the same (if not more) potential than Darko.

by **benji** on Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:37 am

NBA_Fan_23 wrote:The way I see it, Detroit isn't really a contendor when they dont have a legitimate goto guy down the strecth.

No one in the Eastern Conference is a contender...

In 2002, they lost to boston in the conference semi finals in 5 games becuase of their scoring

They lost because they only had one scorer...Jerry Stackhouse, who was a low percentage shooter and thus, the Celtics clamped down on him...

same again last year by this time to the nets and in 4 games.

Last year was different from the year before because they had multiple scoring options. Billups was the go-to-guy, while Rip was a consistant scorer and Tayshaun took advantage of the Sixers inability to guard him to be a scorer. Then, when Billups and Wallace were battered by injuries and the team fell apart aside from Rip (who continued to drop 20+ against the Nets) and they gave up in the last two games.

they could have Chauncey seting things up

No, they couldn't. Billups is a scorer, not a guy who sets things up. He's going to be making himself the go-to-guy instead of setting up his teammates.

either going down low to Elden Campbell or Corliss Williamson or even Mehmet Okur

Campbell is done, out of the rotation, finished. Williamson still suffers from being 6-6 and unless Mehmo listens to Brown and stops standing outside and instead goes inside against guys who can't keep up with his quickness they'd be going inside to Darko and Zelly.

and then if things break down (like they have in the past for detroit) they can clear out and put the ball in the hands of Carmelo and let him break down his man one on one.

Which would never happen, because teams would simply focus on and shut down the low percentage scorer like they did to Stackhouse.

Thats really all detroit needs to make themselves into a contendor imo

That wouldn't make them a contender. It might ensure a top five Eastern finish, but adding Anthony to this team would not make it able to defeat any of the Western Four or Minnesota.

but instead they took Darko who isnt going to help them for at least 2 or 3 more years. So you tell me if dumars is such a genius, considering they could be contendors and they couldve taken a much better player now in melo with the same (if not more) potential than Darko.

Detroit cannot be a championship club this year. It can be three years down the road, when Shaq, Malone and Payton should be gone and the Kings and Mavericks have broken apart. By then Darko can be developed enough to be at least a minimal EuroDuncan.

Darko has made bigger strides than anyone I have seen this season. He's finally confident enough on the offensive end to use his passing skills, he's posting his man a lot better and making smarter moves to the hoop. He's playing within the team and in the sets leagues better than he was. Defensively he is no longer playing a zone and losing his man, he's staying with him and holding his ground. His defensive anticipation has also improved, he's timing his blocks a lot better than before. If he keeps this up, he'll probably make a bigger playoff impact than Prince did, if the Pistons can make the playoffs. I also expect Darko to play a lot more minutes, Campbell is out of the rotation and Okur won't stop being stupid. If Brown would play Darko alongside Zelly or maybe even Okur coming off the bench it would work wonders and might prove to Brown that Corliss is not best used at power forward.

by **Matthew** on Tue Dec 23, 2003 9:50 am

No one in the Eastern Conference is a contender...

Indiana imo is a top 5 team, and who knows? The team that gets out of the west wouldve had to have beaten 2 powerhouses so mental and physical fatigue may set in when they reach the finals.

They lost because they only had one scorer...Jerry Stackhouse, who was a low percentage shooter and thus, the Celtics clamped down on him...

Yes, like I said, they lost becuase of their scoring..

Last year was different from the year before because they had multiple scoring options. Billups was the go-to-guy, while Rip was a consistant scorer and Tayshaun took advantage of the Sixers inability to guard him to be a scorer. Then, when Billups and Wallace were battered by injuries and the team fell apart aside from Rip (who continued to drop 20+ against the Nets) and they gave up in the last two games.

How much did Tayshaun actually average in the series against Philly? Billups didnt play bad until the series against the Nets, despite him getting injured in the early part of the philly series, so I don't buy into him being injured being a huge factor against the Nets becuase he was able to play well in the rest of the series against Philly. The reason the nets won is Detroit couldn't score apart from Rip... and if Joe Dumars couldn't see that, well, he isn't the great GM most fans say he is.

No, they couldn't. Billups is a scorer, not a guy who sets things up. He's going to be making himself the go-to-guy instead of setting up his teammates.

So you're telling me Chauncey cant play the role similar to how Stephon plays in Pheonix? Where he distributes the basketball and scores in the flow of the game?

Campbell is done, out of the rotation, finished. Williamson still suffers from being 6-6 and unless Mehmo listens to Brown and stops standing outside and instead goes inside against guys who can't keep up with his quickness they'd be going inside to Darko and Zelly

I said going down low to Mehmet, not going outside to him. Darko is not physically ready to go into the post yet, even in the east.

Which would never happen, because teams would simply focus on and shut down the low percentage scorer like they did to Stackhouse.

No they wouldnt. You touched on this earlier, in 2002 Stackhouse was their only scorer. But this Piston team has Okur, Hamilton, Billups, williamson off the bench, so if the opposing team did focus on Melo, they would be exploited by the rest of the scorers that detroit has.

That wouldn't make them a contender. It might ensure a top five Eastern finish, but adding Anthony to this team would not make it able to defeat any of the Western Four or Minnesota.

I disagree, if they drafted Anthony they would be favourites to win the east, and with their defense and scoring options I could see them at least challenging for the NBA title. Look at Carmelo is doing in denver with less help on the offensive end, and alot less help defensively and are you going to tell me that Darko is the better option for right now? This Piston team made the conference finals last year, its not like they are rebuilding so why take such a gamble on a project player such as darko who will take along time to be ready. Hell, the more I think about it, the more I realise just how bad Detroit fucked up. They could've traded prince to portland for Randolph and then a line up of wallace, zach, melo, billups and rip would eat up the east, and their bench would be in great shape too with zelly, mehmet, williamson, sura and atkins...

Darko has made bigger strides than anyone I have seen this season

Lol yeah, he got a whole 3 points, what huge strides this young man is making :crazy:

He's finally confident enough on the offensive end to use his passing skills, he's posting his man a lot better and making smarter moves to the hoop. He's playing within the team and in the sets leagues better than he was. Defensively he is no longer playing a zone and losing his man, he's staying with him and holding his ground. His defensive anticipation has also improved, he's timing his blocks a lot better than before. If he keeps this up, he'll probably make a bigger playoff impact than Prince did, if the Pistons can make the playoffs. I also expect Darko to play a lot more minutes, Campbell is out of the rotation and Okur won't stop being stupid. If Brown would play Darko alongside Zelly or maybe even Okur coming off the bench it would work wonders and might prove to Brown that Corliss is not best used at power forward.

We'll see come playoff time... as for now, Carmelo wouldve helped the Pistons a whole lot more than what Darko has done so far, and that cannot be disputed.

by **MC Hao** on Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:45 am

holyshit, it finally happened! darko scored! i thought i'd never see the day. :lol:

by **benji** on Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:03 am

Indiana like every Eastern team would be streamrolled in a seven game series against the Western Four...

I don't know how much Tayshaun averaged in the series against Philadelphia, but his mismatch created problems for McKie and Buckner that required doubles that opened the floor. Billups dropped off from the Orlando series to the Philadelphia series because of the injury, Philadelphia would not have been able to hold on to six games had Billups been healthy like he was against Orlando. The Nets won because not only could Detroit not score but because they stopped playing defense.

No, Billups cannot play a role similar to Marbury. He is not the talent Marbury is. Billups is seeing the floor as first, how he will score not as how the Pistons will score, if he changes that he might be able to do it, but I doubt he will since that's how he's played his entire life.

You may have said go down low to Mehmo, but he doesn't go down low, he stands at the top of the key and then either tries to drive or shoot from the outside. Darko can go in the post and that where he is his best offensively.

The 2002 Pistons had Williamson off the bench as well. And you added this qualifier "if things break down (like they have in the past for detroit)", which means the rest of the team cannot score, so that would imply the remainder of the Pistons scorers were cold.

if they drafted Anthony they would be favourites to win the east, and with their defense and scoring options I could see them at least challenging for the NBA title. Look at Carmelo is doing in denver with less help on the offensive end, and alot less help defensively

You are completely and utterly wrong. Carmelo Anthony in Denver has more offensive assistance (1) that he would receive in Detroit, Bzdelik has implimented a high octane scoring style (2) and Anthony is flanked with Lenard, Barry, Miller, Boykins and White who are playing simply gangbusters on the offensive end. Detroit's defense is better than Denver's as much as Denver's offense is better than Detroit's so the teams are actually dead even. With Anthony the offense would stay the same and the defense would drop. Anthony can't play defense at anywhere near Fowlkes or Prince's level and his offense is a wash because of the number of attempts he needs to get his points.

are you going to tell me that Darko is the better option for right now?

Who said anything about right now...I said three years.

This Piston team made the conference finals last year, its not like they are rebuilding so why take such a gamble on a project player such as darko who will take along time to be ready.

Because they are rebuilding. What's the evidence of a rebuilding club? Player turnover. Only two players (Wallace/Atkins) remain from 2001, two more (Williamson/Rebraca) from 2002, last year was near the tail end of the rebuilding as they kept four and a half players (Billups/Davis/Hamilton/Okur/Prince). Four of the starters have been here one year. Rebraca and Prince missed almost all of last year. Sura, Campbell, Milicic, Fowlkes, Ham and Hunter are all new to the team. And there's a new head coach. This isn't the same team as the last two/three years.

Hell, the more I think about it, the more I realise just how bad Detroit fucked up. They could've traded prince to portland for Randolph

How exactly were they supposed to do that...Portland wasn't turning over Randolph.

Lol yeah, he got a whole 3 points, what huge strides this young man is makingp

It's easy to make jokes when you don't ever see him play.

as for now, Carmelo wouldve helped the Pistons a whole lot more than what Darko has done so far, and that cannot be disputed.

Yes, it can. As I already explained, Carmelo would hurt the Pistons on both ends of the floor due to how they play. Darko doesn't hurt them on either end, yes, because he doesn't play.

Footnotes
1. Detroit's OFF: 97.8...Denver's OFF: 100.9
2. Detroit's PACE: 90.3...Denver's PACE: 97.3

by **Matthew** on Tue Dec 23, 2003 12:44 pm

I don't know how much Tayshaun averaged in the series against Philadelphia, but his mismatch created problems for McKie and Buckner that required doubles that opened the floor. Billups dropped off from the Orlando series to the Philadelphia series because of the injury, Philadelphia would not have been able to hold on to six games had Billups been healthy like he was against Orlando. The Nets won because not only could Detroit not score but because they stopped playing defense.

Wasnt Keith Van Horn guarding Prince? I know KVH isnt a good defender, but Prince isn't exactly an offensive force to be reckoned with. I felt Philly had a great chance to win especially when Chauncey went down, but look at how Billups played in game 6 of that series. You can't tell me (or you can try to but i wont believe it) that his injury effected his play, becuase it didnt.

No, Billups cannot play a role similar to Marbury. He is not the talent Marbury is. Billups is seeing the floor as first, how he will score not as how the Pistons will score, if he changes that he might be able to do it, but I doubt he will since that's how he's played his entire life.

Why can't he be a playmaker and distribute the basketball though? I can't see why not. And I don't expect him to play 100% like showbiz, but he can feed his teamates and make them better.. or can't he pass?

You may have said go down low to Mehmo, but he doesn't go down low, he stands at the top of the key and then either tries to drive or shoot from the outside. Darko can go in the post and that where he is his best offensively.

Darko cant do that yet.. and probably wont be able to for a long time.

The 2002 Pistons had Williamson off the bench as well. And you added this qualifier "if things break down (like they have in the past for detroit)", which means the rest of the team cannot score, so that would imply the remainder of the Pistons scorers were cold.

You also said that in 2002 the Pistons only had stackhouse. Corliss Williamson is a threat when on the floor, but he cant take the burdon single handedly of being the second option. If he was alongside wallace, melo, rip and billups he would be the fourth option, which is alot less pressure than being the second option to stackhouse..

You are completely and utterly wrong. Carmelo Anthony in Denver has more offensive assistance (1) that he would receive in Detroit, Bzdelik has implimented a high octane scoring style (2) and Anthony is flanked with Lenard, Barry, Miller, Boykins and White who are playing simply gangbusters on the offensive end. Detroit's defense is better than Denver's as much as Denver's offense is better than Detroit's so the teams are actually dead even. With Anthony the offense would stay the same and the defense would drop. Anthony can't play defense at anywhere near Fowlkes or Prince's level and his offense is a wash because of the number of attempts he needs to get his points.

lol, Barry, lenord, Miller, White and Boykins are better than Hamilton, Billups, Okur, Atkins, Sura, Okur, Zelly etc etc? Please, :lol:

.. Don't look at the system, look at the players and you tell me which team has the better offensive talent.... lol John Barry, Rodney White, Earl Boykins, Voshorn Lenord... these players are a joke. Andre Miller is good, but even then I'd rather Chauncey when it comes to putting the ball in the hole.

Who said anything about right now...I said three years.

3 years, now thats a plan for an unproven overseas player who is what? 17 years old? So he will be 20.. and even then he probably wont be a force. This Detroit team made the conference finals and (according to you) a big reason as to why they lost was becuase of injuries, so... why are they rebuilding? Why didnt they just add Carmelo who would help them immediately? Detroit fucked up so badly

How exactly were they supposed to do that...Portland wasn't turning over Randolph.

How do you know they wouldnt have swapped Prince for Randolph? Portland had lost Pippen, they wouldnt have known about Rasheeds up coming bad season that he is having now. I think portland wouldve done this deal, and maybe a first rounder from detroit or another team couldve been added to get portland more interested.

It's easy to make jokes when you don't ever see him play.

I saw him miss that dunk in cleveland, :proud:

Yes, it can. As I already explained, Carmelo would hurt the Pistons on both ends of the floor due to how they play. Darko doesn't hurt them on either end, yes, because he doesn't play.

Thats just stupid. Carmelo "would hurt them on offense".. right. It's a shame when you look at what Detroit couldve done... and all they have is a prayer that darko won't be a bust.

by **benji** on Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:32 pm

No, McKie and Buckner were guarding Prince for the majority of the series. Billups and Wallace were pushing themselves through injures in the Philadelphia and first two games of the Nets series and so they were worn out come game three. They weren't at their top level.

What do you mean Darko can't go into the post? That's where he goes every single game and that's where teams are doubling and zoning against him. That's where he has been his deadliest, off the low block where Shaq likes to set up.

lol, Barry, lenord, Miller, White and Boykins are better than Hamilton, Billups, Okur, Atkins, Sura, Okur, Zelly etc etc? Please, .. Don't look at the system, look at the players and you tell me which team has the better offensive talent.... lol John Barry, Rodney White, Earl Boykins, Voshorn Lenord... these players are a joke. Andre Miller is good, but even then I'd rather Chauncey when it comes to putting the ball in the hole.

You can "lol" all you want, but you're denying reality if think Denver's offense and those players are not besting the Pistons this year.

3 years, now thats a plan for an unproven overseas player who is what? 17 years old? So he will be 20.. and even then he probably wont be a force.

He's not supposed to be an end-all-be-all force, he's supposed to be the piece that pushes the Pistons over the edge when they actually have a realistic shot.

This Detroit team made the conference finals and (according to you) a big reason as to why they lost was becuase of injuries, so... why are they rebuilding?

Because they are just two years after they won only 32 games, they have only two players from that team, over half the team has never played here. That's just like a rebuilding club like Denver and Cleveland.

How do you know they wouldnt have swapped Prince for Randolph? Portland had lost Pippen, they wouldnt have known about Rasheeds up coming bad season that he is having now. I think portland wouldve done this deal, and maybe a first rounder from detroit or another team couldve been added to get portland more interested.

That's because you don't live in reality. After Randolph's playoff explosion Portland made him the centerpiece of the team, Sheed does not tap into his talents to be the franchise player, Randolph did. That's why he started and almost led the Blazers game seven comeback. To think the Blazers would trade a guy who already was displaying all-star talent off the bench who exploded in the playoffs to play like a superstar and who they decided to make the centerpiece of the team for a guy who didn't play all season and then exploded in the playoffs to play like a starter talent and a draft pick and would play at a position they already had two guys at is just silly...

I saw him miss that dunk in cleveland,

So you admit you have no basis to analyze Darko's development on the court.

Thats just stupid. Carmelo "would hurt them on offense".. right.

No, it isn't. Detroit already plays at a near snails pace (and their offense for the first time in two years has fallen out of the top 13 in the league). In order to get all the shots he needs to put up those numbers at his low FG% Carmelo would need to steal a third of the shots Chauncey and Rip get or taking opportunies from every player. Provided he doesn't settle to be the third or fourth option on offense (making him less productive than Prince). He would also create a gaping hole on the wing on defense. Tayshaun Prince and Tremaine Fowlkes are two legit defensive stoppers who can lock up the wing (and in Tayshauns case even defend at PF and PG), Carmelo is not even a speed bump, he is the grooves on the side of the road that wake you up when fall asleep and drift.

Is Carmelo Anthony a very good player? Yes. Is he better than Darko now? Yes. Will he always be better than Darko? Maybe. Is he better for the Pistons now or in three years? No.

by **Matthew** on Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:55 pm

You can "lol" all you want, but you're denying reality if think Denver's offense and those players are not besting the Pistons this year.

Aw geeze thanks for the permission to "lol" all I want... if you you honestly think that Lenord, Andre Miller, Jon Barry and Rodney White are superior offenisve players than Ripchard, Chauncey Billups, Mehmet Okur and Corliss Williamson then of course I'm going to laugh at you. It would be like me saying Bruce Bowen is a better shooter than Dirk Nowitki last season becuase he shot a higher percentage from the 3 point stripe. Numbers can be decieving, and Denvers system is run and gun which means better and more shots. If you don't believe that, then what does it come down to? Carmelo Anthony joining the team? But wait.. I thought he is detrimental on the offensive end (or is that just detroit, who can't score anyway).

He's not supposed to be an end-all-be-all force, he's supposed to be the piece that pushes the Pistons over the edge when they actually have a realistic shot.

So why would they have added guys like Bobby Sura and Elden Campbell now? These players will be shells of their prime in 3 or 4 years.. and if they were just rebuilding becuase they suck so terribly now wouldn't it make more sense to just tank games and get better draft picks? This was the logic you used to say Jordan was selfish to come back to the wizards, becuase he was "hurting" them becuase they were more competitive and not getting the higher lottery picks...

And when you think about the Zach Randolph trade scenario, considering it wouldve been in the off season i think the Blazers would've done it. They could've been talked into it simply by showing how well Tayshuan did against Tmac in the playoffs and "all the matchup problems he caused philly" and then add to that the fact that Zach and Rasheed play the same position. This is the same portland organisation that traded Jermaine O'neal for Dale Davis, so I have no doubt that they could've been talked into a deal.

So you admit you have no basis to analyze Darko's development on the court.

Ive seen him play twice and he reminds me of Shawn Bradley as a rookie...

Detroit already plays at a near snails pace (and their offense for the first time in two years has fallen out of the top 13 in the league). In order to get all the shots he needs to put up those numbers at his low FG% Carmelo would need to steal a third of the shots Chauncey and Rip get or taking opportunies from every player. Provided he doesn't settle to be the third or fourth option on offense (making him less productive than Prince). He would also create a gaping hole on the wing on defense. Tayshaun Prince and Tremaine Fowlkes are two legit defensive stoppers who can lock up the wing (and in Tayshauns case even defend at PF and PG), Carmelo is not even a speed bump, he is the grooves on the side of the road that wake you up when fall asleep and drift.

Carmelo showed on the college level he can play effectively in half court on offense (and against a zone in that half court too, i might add), and Carmelo was to be effective in detroit, the plan was to get Chauncey to share the ball and be somewhat of a playmaker, but you pretty much said he is too crap to do that. Detroit (still) needs a player to score down the stretch of a close game, a guy that can create his own shot or one for his teamates. We already established why this didn't work for Stackhouse in 2002 (lack of scoring teamates) but this piston team has a better supporting cast than that season. Melo would make them better right now becuase he is a legitimate scoring threat down the stretch of a game, and he isnt bad on defense. You seem to love stats (like denvers ppg) so heres some:
Tayshaun Prince 0.74 bpg, 0.85 spg and 5.1 rpg
Carmelo Anthony 0.85 bpg, 1.26 spg and 5.4rpg
So according to stats, Carmelo is the superior defensive player and a better rebounder and a better scorer. But nah, he wont help the Pistons now will he...

Because they are just two years after they won only 32 games, they have only two players from that team, over half the team has never played here. That's just like a rebuilding club like Denver and Cleveland.

I nearly missed this, but I was asking why they are rebuilding after being so close to getting to the NBA finals and according to you injuries hurting them just as much (if not more) than their lack of scoring ability.

Is Carmelo Anthony a very good player? Yes. Is he better than Darko now? Yes. Will he always be better than Darko? Maybe. Is he better for the Pistons now or in three years? No

I agree with all of that except the last one, He would help the Pistons alot more than what Darko is right now

by **benji** on Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:07 pm

if you you honestly think that Lenord, Andre Miller, Jon Barry and Rodney White are superior offenisve players than Ripchard, Chauncey Billups, Mehmet Okur and Corliss Williamson then of course I'm going to laugh at you.

Points Per 48 Minutes:
C. Anthony - 25.3
A. Miller - 22.7
V. Lenard - 24.5
E. Boykins - 24.0
J. Barry - 15.3
R. White - 28.0

C. Billups - 24.3
R. Hamilton - 24.5
M. Okur - 19.8
C. Williamson - 20.0

Numbers can be decieving, and Denvers system is run and gun which means better and more shots. If you don't believe that, then what does it come down to? Carmelo Anthony joining the team? But wait.. I thought he is detrimental on the offensive end (or is that just detroit, who can't score anyway).

Run-and-gun doesn't mean better shots, it means more shots. So, of course, we account for that. Thus, we took a look at how many points each team scored per 100 posessions which was 100.9 for Denver and 97.8 for Detroit. Detroit cannot score this year, but the last two years they have been 10th and 13th in the league in scoring.

So why would they have added guys like Bobby Sura and Elden Campbell now? These players will be shells of their prime in 3 or 4 years..

Because they aren't going to be around in 3 or 4 years...Sura was acquired because his contract expires after this season...Campbell expires in two if they keep him that long...

and if they were just rebuilding becuase they suck so terribly now wouldn't it make more sense to just tank games and get better draft picks?

No.

This was the logic you used to say Jordan was selfish to come back to the wizards, becuase he was "hurting" them becuase they were more competitive and not getting the higher lottery picks...

No? Never said that? Jordan hurt the Wizards by dealing and signing away their cap space with poor players and his playing did nothing to help the team because he was so hell bent on winning then they were playing him and guys like Charles Oakley and Byron Russell who had no business being there.

And when you think about the Zach Randolph trade scenario, considering it wouldve been in the off season i think the Blazers would've done it. They could've been talked into it simply by showing how well Tayshuan did against Tmac in the playoffs and "all the matchup problems he caused philly" and then add to that the fact that Zach and Rasheed play the same position. This is the same portland organisation that traded Jermaine O'neal for Dale Davis, so I have no doubt that they could've been talked into a deal.

Sigh...must you continue and live in MatthewWorld...

Portland would have never traded Zach Randolph (who averaged 20 points and 11 rebounds during the season when he got 30+ minutes...who tore it up at a simliar pace and led the team back against the Mavericks...who they decided to make the centerpiece of the team) for Tayshaun Prince. Prince stopping McGrady and abusing Philadelphia's 6-4 and 6-5 Small Forwards would not be more enticing than Randolph's playing like an All-Star.

If you think the Blazers would have traded an All-Star for a freaky Small Forward (when they already had two and did not need to replace Pippen there because Pippen had been playing Point Guard all season and into the playoffs and they were 38-16 with him there and only 12-16 when he was elsewhere) because they traded Jermaine O'Neal (who had not played like an All-Star and then burst into the starting lineup in the playoffs to lead his team to a near-upset but was a project who didn't play too much) for Dale Davis (who they thought would secure the West and Championship for them) you're a little out there.

Ive seen him play twice and he reminds me of Shawn Bradley as a rookie...

I've seen him play every time.

Carmelo showed on the college level he can play effectively in half court on offense (and against a zone in that half court too, i might add)

That's college. He also shot 60 points higher in College.

and Carmelo was to be effective in detroit, the plan was to get Chauncey to share the ball and be somewhat of a playmaker

What plan? There was no plan to even take Carmelo after they saw Darko's workout.

Detroit (still) needs a player to score down the stretch of a close game, a guy that can create his own shot

Billups seemed to step into that role in the playoffs last year.

Melo would make them better right now becuase he is a legitimate scoring threat down the stretch of a game, and he isnt bad on defense. You seem to love stats (like denvers ppg) so heres some:
Tayshaun Prince 0.74 bpg, 0.85 spg and 5.1 rpg
Carmelo Anthony 0.85 bpg, 1.26 spg and 5.4rpg
So according to stats, Carmelo is the superior defensive player and a better rebounder and a better scorer. But nah, he wont help the Pistons now will he...

I'm surprised. You think blocks, steals and rebounds determine how good a player is defensively. As everyone knows, Tayshaun Prince and Tremaine Fowlkes are stoppers. Carmelo Anthony is grooves. You can keep throwing out rebounds, blocks and steals, but you'll just look foolish since everyone knows that says little about a players ability to play defense. Bruce Bowen gets 1.52 steals per 48, but everyone knows he's the best wing/perimeter defender in the league.

So, Anthony is not as good defensively, and to go to him offensively enough that he matches his Denver numbers would reduce the shots the rest of the Pistons get. But now...I'm a broken record. So. Numbers!

Carmelo Anthony with Tayshaun Prince's attempts: 12.7 points per 48 (vs. 14.2)
Tayshaun Prince with Carmelo Anthony's attempts: 27.8 points per 48 (vs. 25.3)

Carmelo Anthony with average of the two's attempts: 19.0
Tayshaun Prince with average of the two's attempts: 21.0

Assist ratios: 17.48 (Prince) vs. 12.06 (Anthony)

by **scubilete** on Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:44 pm

If at least Darko was getting the opportunity of playing, but how can you think he's a that bad if he's not getting playing time? I'd easily say this Knicks rookie is a shitty as well (Sweetney) but he's not getting playing time so nobody can judge him for not getting great numbers, and the fact that a particular team doesn't use a player is for different reasons.

Obviously Prince is an example, nobody knew he could play until we saw him in the playoffs. At least I would say, if he wouldn't have played that great, many would believe he was going to be cut (if we followed his season numbers) or at least he was going to try harder than anyone to make the team this year. But no, he played great and surprise the world showing that not getting playing time during the season didn't affect his game. (After all, he was a first rounder)

The case is the Pistons DID NOT WANT CARMELO, it's not that they made a mistake, they took whoever they wanted, Milicic is the player they wanted, and they'll wait for him to develop, most of you are still waiting for Kwame who everyone knows how bad he sucks, what's so bad to wait a bit for Milicic who at least is not getting the opportunities Kwame & LeBron got when they came to the league?...

by **fgrep15** on Wed Dec 24, 2003 2:53 pm

scubilete wrote:If at least Darko was getting the opportunity of playing, but how can you think he's a that bad if he's not getting playing time? I'd easily say this Knicks rookie is a shitty as well (Sweetney) but he's not getting playing time so nobody can judge him for not getting great numbers, and the fact that a particular team doesn't use a player is for different reasons.

Obviously Prince is an example, nobody knew he could play until we saw him in the playoffs. At least I would say, if he wouldn't have played that great, many would believe he was going to be cut (if we followed his season numbers) or at least he was going to try harder than anyone to make the team this year. But no, he played great and surprise the world showing that not getting playing time during the season didn't affect his game. (After all, he was a first rounder)

The case is the Pistons DID NOT WANT CARMELO, it's not that they made a mistake, they took whoever they wanted, Milicic is the player they wanted, and they'll wait for him to develop, most of you are still waiting for Kwame who everyone knows how bad he sucks, what's so bad to wait a bit for Milicic who at least is not getting the opportunities Kwame & LeBron got when they came to the league?...

geez finally someone that agrees with me, people look at things too one sidedly,all saying yea the pistons wanted a imediate impact player b/c they aren't good, the management saw the development of tayshaun and okur and knew they need a consistent low post scorer therefore taking Darko, they were looking at the future, lets all realize Ben isn't young, and when Ben is done they can have Darko and Okur in the middle, and if you know tayshaun is good why not fill another void in the team rather than stunt the development of tayshaun by drafting a player in the same position

by **Matt** on Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:03 pm

Personally i'm glad Joe D picked Milicic, the kid has time to develop into a star. If Pistons got Bosh or Melo that would make them contenders??? Yeah right, they could win maybe 2 games max against Lakers in seven. W/o melo they are still 'contenders' and by that i mean they are contending to be the next team to be sweeped off the floor by a Western Co team. It's better to be a real contender in 3 yrs when the real contenders won't be as strong as they are now.

by **fgrep15** on Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:37 pm

tru tru, but Bosh and Melo going to the Pistons also would have given them less playing time i like how it happened cause im happy Toronto got bosh and I wouldn't want Melo on the pistons

by **Matthew** on Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:42 pm

Points Per 48 Minutes:
C. Anthony - 25.3
A. Miller - 22.7
V. Lenard - 24.5
E. Boykins - 24.0
J. Barry - 15.3
R. White - 28.0

C. Billups - 24.3
R. Hamilton - 24.5
M. Okur - 19.8
C. Williamson - 20.0

Lol, so you use Carmelo's stats to show why he has better teamates? Right ok.. I'll get more into the reason for those inflated denver stats in a second...

Run-and-gun doesn't mean better shots, it means more shots. So, of course, we account for that. Thus, we took a look at how many points each team scored per 100 posessions which was 100.9 for Denver and 97.8 for Detroit. Detroit cannot score this year, but the last two years they have been 10th and 13th in the league in scoring.

Run and gun usually does mean better shots becuase you are fast breaking, so you tend to get 4 on 3's or 3 on 2's, and even 3 on 3's usually mean better shots than a 5 on 5. But, if you don't acknowledge that, you have to ask yourself how can Denver be putting up those kinds of numbers with Carmelo there, considering you said before that Carmelo would hurt Detroit... so if he would hurt Detroit, how come isnt he hurting Denver. It has to be either the system (run and gun) or the players for the reason they are getting better stats on the offensive end. So which one is it? If you say its the system, then surely you cant stick to your "point" that denver has better offensive players... and if you say its the players, then how can you say Carmelo would hurt a team of "lesser" offensive talent? Doesn't quick make sense what your saying here does it?...

Because they aren't going to be around in 3 or 4 years...Sura was acquired because his contract expires after this season...Campbell expires in two if they keep him that long

But... you said they are rebuilding, so why bring in veterans who will help them win now?

No.

Look below

No? Never said that? Jordan hurt the Wizards by dealing and signing away their cap space with poor players and his playing did nothing to help the team because he was so hell bent on winning then they were playing him and guys like Charles Oakley and Byron Russell who had no business being there.

"Jordan doesn't care about this franchise...he only cares about his own glory, etc. If he cared about the franchise he wouldn't have come back to play...but that's not his fault...he's human...which makes him selfish and greedy...just you Shane...you, me...Matthew...Nigel's debatable because he's...yeah...

without Jordan they win 30 games, miss the playoffs, and get a higher pick...with Jordan they win 35 games, still miss the playoffs, get a lower pick... "
You said that ben, and that was before they sign Russell and Oakley and made the trade for stack...

Sigh...must you continue and live in MatthewWorld...

lol can everyone see the maturation of ben? :lol:

Portland would have never traded Zach Randolph (who averaged 20 points and 11 rebounds during the season when he got 30+ minutes...who tore it up at a simliar pace and led the team back against the Mavericks...who they decided to make the centerpiece of the team) for Tayshaun Prince. Prince stopping McGrady and abusing Philadelphia's 6-4 and 6-5 Small Forwards would not be more enticing than Randolph's playing like an All-Star.

Portland had no idea he would have this kind of breakout season last year (or last off-season), and if they had known he was this good last season why did it take them untill they were one game away from being eliminated before making him the centrepiece? I'm sure Jermaine O'neal(from the 200 season) wouldve had similar numbers in similar minutes against dallas last post-season... and yet they traded him for what? A guy who plays the same position but nowhere near the same talent level.. My point is how can you say Portland knew what kind of player they had in Randolph before this season, and they didnt know what they in jermaine? If you say they did, then why did it take them so long to put Randolph as the centrepiece of the blazers? Once again it just doesnt make sense does it?

I've seen him play every time.

So you've seen his entire 2 assists and 4 rebounds? :lol:

That's college. He also shot 60 points higher in College.

60 Points higher? What exactly do you mean by scoring higher? The point I was using about college was he can score in a half court offense similar to how detroit plays...

What plan? There was no plan to even take Carmelo after they saw Darko's workout.

My plan wouldve been for them to trade prince and select carmelo. I know that means nothing, but thats really what this thread is all about (and how badly detroit fucked up)

Billups seemed to step into that role in the playoffs last year.

Yes really really well against New Jersey :crazy:

I'm surprised. You think blocks, steals and rebounds determine how good a player is defensively. As everyone knows, Tayshaun Prince and Tremaine Fowlkes are stoppers. Carmelo Anthony is grooves. You can keep throwing out rebounds, blocks and steals, but you'll just look foolish since everyone knows that says little about a players ability to play defense. Bruce Bowen gets 1.52 steals per 48, but everyone knows he's the best wing/perimeter defender in the league.

No, I was making a point that not everything is about stats. You think becuase a player gets a high number of points he is a superior offensive player (like saying Denvers offensive players are better to detroits, which is not the case).

Carmelo Anthony with Tayshaun Prince's attempts: 12.7 points per 48 (vs. 14.2)
Tayshaun Prince with Carmelo Anthony's attempts: 27.8 points per 48 (vs. 25.3)

Carmelo Anthony with average of the two's attempts: 19.0
Tayshaun Prince with average of the two's attempts: 21.0

That is not necessarily true. Carmelo is the number one option in denver, so every shot is contested. Plus as you shoot more you are more inclined to take bad shots or shots not in ryhtym (shots as the shot or game clock is about to expire, for example). So here you are basing your argument for Denvers players being better on offense strictly about stats, and here you are making an example of how stats can be decieving? Good Job! (y)

Scub, I wont quote what you have said. But Darko isnt getting minutes becuase he just isnt ready yet, otherwise detroit would play him, right? They have no other reason not to play him, do they? I know the Pistons selected Darko, but it was wrong imo. The pistons were ina prime position to challange at least for the eastern championship, so why not draft a player that can actually help them now and help them get over that bump instead of a player that might help them in 3 or 4 years down the road... and also considering that Carmelo is still very young and has alot of potential as well, it just doesn't seem like a smart draft pick considering what they couldve got... Look at Dallas, they drafted josh howard from Wake forest, and he is helping dallas right now. That to me was a smart draft choice becuase he has made an immeditae impact. Detroit isnt Washington and despite what ben says i dont buy into the whol rebuliding thing.. it doesn't make sense for a team who made the conference finals to rebuild.. and if they are, that isnt smart on their behalf either.

Darco carrer night!!!

Darco carrer night!!!

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