2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby air gordon on Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:02 am

NovU wrote:What do you guys think of on going load management issue mainly revolving Kawhi’s what seems to be healthy sit outs even for a national marquee match ups.

Obviously it is bad for business but it has been proven to be a smart move. The Raptors kept Kawhi healthy by allowing him ample rest during the regular season, and he was able to play the most minutes in the entire league for the playoffs which worked out perfectly for the Raptors and their championship plan. Also fatigue and injury correlates. Would you rather have a player sit out for long period or allow resting time to time and reduce chance of injury risk.

The League fines the team for resting players without proper reasons but it is very unclear when and what types of rest is just.

interesting topic

i think the real problem is the regular season is too long. thanks to the dominance of GSW and Harden being a dominant force in the regular season, the games aren't really relevant until the playoffs start. the league finally agreed to spacing out games and lowering the amount of back to back's. there are no back to back's during the playoffs either. Silver seems to be getting the message. get it done, Silver

sure we're all pissed when someone sits out a game but i'm very interested in to see the affects on the revenue side. maybe viewership is down on a given day but the fans are still going to tune in the next game, buy merchandise, continue with their cable package, etc.

could write a thesis on the kawhi situation. how serious kawhi's injury is only he and his team knows day to day. him winning the title obviously has empowered him to continue with it.

as was mentioned earlier, if the load thing will get them players healthy come playoff time i'm all for it. you really don't hear shit teams like the bulls or wiz load managing their players :lame:

thought i saw a stat of westy is shooting 3pters at an all time historic rate for the amount he takes lol
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby air gordon on Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:29 am

Andrew wrote:Of course, another way to look at it is that even if it did help the Raptors, it's not for the reasons people think, or isn't applicable to other situations where the same strategy was employed (again, specious reasoning). Given that Kawhi Leonard has had some problems with injuries in recent years, keeping him out of certain games may have theoretically avoided re-injury, allowing him to be healthy and available during the Playoffs when the championship is more directly on the line. However, had he played those games and not been injured, the result could've feasibly been the same, as the worst case scenario wouldn't have presented itself. And, once again, it doesn't explain how other teams who practised load management didn't have the same success, if that is indeed the key ingredient. If the Raptors hadn't won the title, or Kawhi had played all 82 games and they'd still won, or if he'd suffered a serious injury in one of the 60 regular season games that he did play (since injuries often come down to misfortune), no one would be making implications that are a post hoc fallacy.

In short, it may be a sound strategy for Kawhi specifically given his injury history, but it's hardly a guarantee for success, and could've easily been moot due to other factors that played a role in determining the outcome of last year's Playoffs. To say that it's an approach that all teams should definitely follow if they want to win is, to break out the term of the day once again, specious reasoning.

sorry double post here but i don't agree with this.

putting aside my internet MD in sports medicine, having the preexisting medical condition is all the reason to sit out a player for a game. sure there's the chance of any player getting hurt on any play in that sense but a player with an injury is more likely to re-injure or aggravate the injury if he played vs getting hit by a rock. in the end, Lenard was the best player on the title team.
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby NovU on Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:09 pm

Doncic playing like he's already a top 3 player in the league at age of 20. I know Trae Young is looking great himself, but Doncic's just looking like he's on another level. How da hell Mark Cuban lucked into this gem, Dirk v2.0
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby air gordon on Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:50 am

more like harden 2.0. what a stud
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby Andrew on Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:25 pm

#00 is an interesting choice of jersey number for Melo in Portland.
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby [Q] on Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:32 pm

Probably in tribute to the amount of money that was guaranteed for him in the contract

15 is retired and 7 should be.
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby Phil89 on Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:26 pm

Ben Simmons is shooting 100% from three this season :applaud:
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby deihatein on Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:33 pm

Luka Doncic. That is all
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby [Q] on Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:43 pm

deihatein wrote:Luka Doncic. That is all

my #1 pick in fantasy. i feel smart
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby NovU on Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:52 pm

I wasn't kidding when I said Doncic's already playing like a league top 3 player, as a sophomore and as a 20 years old kid.

Only player that we know for sure who is having a better season than Doncic is Giannis Atemtokoumpos. Only other debatable worthy candidates are LeBron and Harden.

And yes, he is the greatest 20 years old player of all time.
- 4th in winshare (only behind Harden, Giannis, Lebron respectively)
- 5th in winshare/48 (only behind Giannis, Harden, Lebron, Anthony-Towns respectively)
- 3rd in PER - (only behind Giannis, Harden respectively)
- 2nd in Box +/- (only behind Harden)
- 2nd in VORP (only behind Giannis)

Giannis as we know is playing in god mode as usual again this year and he is indeed showing up as a leader in most of metrics displaying his true value in this league and for his team. Otherwise, it's 3 man show atm in tier below between Doncic, Harden, and LeBron. This is shocking.


air gordon wrote:thought i saw a stat of westy is shooting 3pters at an all time historic rate for the amount he takes lol

Yep. He's in league of his own. There was never a such high volume 3pt shooter who's shot worse than him. Complete waste of possession.

Not only that, he's been a total bum in every other aspect of the game too. 7.7 assists per 4.5 turnovers: Might as well have him stay away from making plays entirely. He's also shooting way below league average in every shooting category. Only thing he does well is getting to the line but he's again a league below freethrow shooter. He should be your model number 1 guy when it comes to Epitome of Inefficiency and overratedness.

Tonight's game showed the Rockets ceiling with Harden/Westy combo. Only reason I could think of why Daryl Morey the moneyball guy made a trade for Westy is because of stale relationship between Harden and CP3, and that CP3's declining and aging. Not sure how Daryl's gonna fix this up, otherwise they won't get to the Finals for the foreseeable future and end up wasting another years of Harden's prime.

Also, Westy's ruining what could have been Harden's 40ppg average season which would have been amazing. (N) (N)
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby air gordon on Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:27 am

too bad the bucks didn't want to go to the lux tax to keep brogdon. bled's play is hot now but his balls shrink come playoff time. Middleton is decent but the bucks need another playmaker like brogdon

really amazing about doncic. i certainly was a doubter he would be this good

maybe harden does do 40ppg. he'll load manage/make it to the minimum amount of games needed to qualify to be scoring leader
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby Dee4Three on Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:17 am

NovU wrote:Not only that, he's been a total bum in every other aspect of the game too. 7.7 assists per 4.5 turnovers: Might as well have him stay away from making plays entirely.


And this is exactly what I am talking about. I love how people in here just tolerate this commentary and bias, just because its from you.

James Harden: 7.5 APG and 5.5 TOPG, Usage 40.2, FG 42.9% (well under league average)
Russell Westbrook: 6.9 APG and 3.8 TOPG, Usage 31.5, FG 41.6% (Well under league average)

So I guess if Russ is a bum in that aspect of the game and might as well "stay away from making plays entirely", Harden ABSOLUTELY should follow suit.

Also, your numbers were wrong even at the time of you posting it.

Here is using NovU logic: Westbrook is being ruined by HARDEN!!!!

The last 4 years before Harden Westbrook had!

10.4 APG on 4.3 TOPG
10.4 APG on 5.4 TOPG
10.3 APG on 4.8 TOPG
10.7 APG on 4.5 TOPG

With Harden

Westbrook 6.9 APG on 3.8 TOPG (Still better than Harden)

Harden has ruined Westbrooks chances of averaging a triple double for the 4th straight season with his bum ass ball hogging, chucking, not taking care of the ball ways! DAMN YOU HARDEN!!!

Note: Harden has shot over 45% twice in his career, but not once over the last 6 years (Under league average in every year). Playoffs wise, he has not shot over .413% over the last 4 years, and is a career .419% from the floor (WAY below league average) and 33% career three in the postseason (Below average). Yeah, players are "RUINING" Harden..... wow.

........ give me a break.

Also, Westy's ruining what could have been Harden's 40ppg average season which would have been amazing.


No, NovU. Westbrook is not "ruining" Harden averaging 40PPG, Harden is himself by shooting well below league average in FG, turning the ball over a ton, and having historically atrocious shooting games. The fact that you are upset that Harden isn't averaging 40, and blaming it on Westbrook, I find incredibly fitting for you. Harden is averaging 14 missed shots per game, 9 of which are threes. Maybe if he was more consistent and shot a little better, and had his own shooting percentages reach atleast league averages, he WOULD average 40.

Which by the way, is incredibly overrated in this ridiculous era of poor defense and the rules/pace/style 100% favoring the offense. His scoring average is so overrated, it's funny.

And the best part? Harden is averaging a career high in scoring average this season... playing WITH WESTBROOK! It's literally his highest scoring average ever if he keeps up this pace, in his first year with Russ. DAMN YOU WESTBROOK!!!!!!!

But yeah, Westbrook is the reason Harden isn't averaging 40 (Oh my)
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby air gordon on Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:57 am

happy friday. i suppose having a civil discussion between 2 parties is unlikely if the fundamental thinking in what constitutes a "legit" stat cannot be agreed on

i think if listing only bad game performances only proves the point a player had some bad games. If we only listed the games Pippen got owned by a player like Jamal Mashburn, is he still a bad defensive player?

counting raw stats does get you an idea of what's going on. but to only just count as those as your end all be all without acknowledging advanced stats is short sighted IMO.

can you come to a conclusion a player X is a good rebounder because he got 10 total rebounds in a game? would it be fair to say that other things should considered- like how many minutes player X logged, how many available rebound chances were there, etc?

i guess agree to disagree is sometimes the best way to go ;)
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby Dee4Three on Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:03 am

It's called bias and cherry picking stats, while omitting stats that go against the biased take, Air Gordon. That's exactly what it is.

Advanced stats are as flawed as any stats, raw stats is atleast exactly what physically happened on the court (Harden missing 14 shots per game, 9 of which are 3s, and turning the ball over 5.5 times per game).

Raw stats are flawed as well, as they dont paint the entire picture and cover the context of how those numbers occurred. Both have flaws.

But the point NovU made is absolutely ridiculous, one sided and biased. No need to always try and come to his rescue while not actually saying anything, better off just letting it be, Air Gordon.

I just call it out, while others let it sit or say "Interesting take" or "good point". And note: I didnt make the unbelievable ridiculous post and claims, that came from NovU, I was responding to that.

That's all.
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby air gordon on Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:41 am

how do raw stats tell a better picture than advanced stats?

the scoring stat alone is not simple as it is not determined by one flat rate. you have to take account free throws, 3pters and the associated %'s with those. depending how deep you want to go, we can mention more

those aren't biased criteria. it certainly is taking more into account than just counting how many times the ball went through the hoop.

most that just side with the raw stats generally don't understand advanced stats / just say they are flawed. so what is flawed about them?

obviously i can sound more heavy handed with this argument but really- what's the animosity against advanced stats? maybe if someone woke up benji he could just pu this to be bed. but would that be fun?
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby Dee4Three on Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:38 am

air gordon wrote:how do raw stats tell a better picture than advanced stats?

the scoring stat alone is not simple as it is not determined by one flat rate. you have to take account free throws, 3pters and the associated %'s with those. depending how deep you want to go, we can mention more

those aren't biased criteria. it certainly is taking more into account than just counting how many times the ball went through the hoop.

most that just side with the raw stats generally don't understand advanced stats / just say they are flawed. so what is flawed about them?

obviously i can sound more heavy handed with this argument but really- what's the animosity against advanced stats? maybe if someone woke up benji he could just pu this to be bed. but would that be fun?


Again, a post which says nothing and is mired with questions that you already know the answers to, while avoiding admitting how ridiculous of a take that was.

Air Gordon, my points stand, and all you have done is talk in circles.

"Most that side with the raw stats dont understand advanced stats"

No, it's called cherry picking whatever stats support your argument and ignoring the rest. Both advanced stats and raw stats have flaws and miss a whole lot of context, BOTH.

"Westbrook is making it so Harden is not averaging 40ppg!!!!!"

Well, did Westbrook make Harden do this?
2-13 FG, 1-8 Threes
8-29 FG, 2-18 Threes
8-21 FG. 3-14 Threes
10-23 FG, 6-16 Threes
6-14 FG, 3-9 Threes
10-31 FG, 2-16 Threes
16-41 FG, 8-22 Threes

Was Westbrook SHOOTING THE BALL for Harden? Was Westbrook bricking all those shots FOR HARDEN? No, Harden was shooting those shots himself. Also stating that Westbrook should stay away from playmaking while not mentioning that Harden has more turnovers per game and has a higher TOV%. It's called one sided cherry picking. I can bring up as a many stats that refute his point, than stats that support it (In fact, more). Watching the games Harden is literally at times just shooting miserably and missing makeable shots, including starting several games 1-9, 2-9 etc (Even with the percentage ended up being slightly better at the end of the game). Harden is at fault for not averaging 40. And again, the laughable part is that NovU is blaming Westbrook, and Harden is averaging the most he has ever averaged playing WITH Russ. You can't make this stuff up.

Does Westbrook forced Harden to GIVE AWAY 5.5 possessions per game in turnovers (Possessions where he could have gotten a bucket?) Does Westbrook throw the ball away FOR Harden?

Harden is also 124th in the NBA in 3P%, 115th in the league in FG%, and leads the NBA in turnovers while leading the league in USG%. His TS% even with his free throw count ranks 42nd in the NBA (Not even top 40), his game is VOLUME, his stats are related to VOLUME, and did Russ cause Harden to be those ranks and lead the league in turnovers? Uh no, thats Hardens doing. He is not averaging 40 ppg because of himself.

NovUs take on Westbrook was ridiculous and one sided, that is exactly what I was getting at. I can name as many stats to refute his point, as he can to benefit it. That's why his statement is incredibly silly.

You are a nightmare to talk with about basketball, because the majority of the time you are not actually saying anything.

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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby air gordon on Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:00 am

haha like i said best to agree to disagree sometimes :lol:

i don't care for whatever argument about harden or westy. i am asking about advanced stats.

i pointed out on that advanced stats take account into more factors. it's reasonable to say this could lead you to a more accurate or at least more informed opinion on a statistical measure. i mean i'm just some guy on a video game message board. I'm sure though a respectable NBA advanced stat guy like Kevin Pelton talks about advanced stats, i'll believe him lol

i ask what is wrong with advanced stats/ how are raw stats better and the only response i have gotten is that it's cherry picking to get something to support an argument (and IGNORING THE RESt which is ironic). elaborate more. otherwise, enjoy the rest of your friday :)
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby Dee4Three on Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:19 am

air gordon wrote:haha like i said best to agree to disagree sometimes :lol:

i don't care for whatever argument about harden or westy. i am asking about advanced stats.

i pointed out on that advanced stats take account into more factors. it's reasonable to say this could lead you to a more accurate or at least more informed opinion on a statistical measure. i mean i'm just some guy on a video game message board. I'm sure though a respectable NBA advanced stat guy like Kevin Pelton talks about advanced stats, i'll believe him lol

i ask what is wrong with advanced stats/ how are raw stats better and the only response i have gotten is that it's cherry picking to get something to support an argument (and IGNORING THE RESt which is ironic). elaborate more. otherwise, enjoy the rest of your friday :)


I have already stated that BOTH types of stats lack context at times, and holes exist in BOTH. Raw stats can explain things as well or better than advanced stats, and advanced stats can be used for other things. Neither are a tell all, neither can tell the complete story, stats never could.

Raw stats as opposed to manufactured advanced stats are indeed though exactly what happens on the floor for that category, not a concoction of different variables that were made up by somebody which have holes and skew the full picture (which often does happen, Harden is an example himself). If a player shoots 42 times and hits 16, that means the player took 42 shots and missed 26 (which isnt good). If a player shoots 18 threes and hits 2, that means he missed 16 threes with the majority of them being turnovers to the other team unless an OFF REB is grabbed (which is not good).

If a player has 8 turnovers, that means he turned the ball over to the other team 8 times in the game without a shot going up (which is not good)

Here is an article by Bleacher report from a few years back which talks about players who "cheat" advanced stats, because they dont accurately depict that players production and meaning to a team when he is on the floor. And this is Bleacher Report, who LOVES stats. This is something we see year in and year out, where players are ranked really high or low in areas that just dont make sense, or that contradict what is actually happening on the floor.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndicatio ... s.amp.html

And this conversation stemmed from Westbrook and Harden, and you know that. But you don't want to give a stance, and we all know why (and most of the time, you dont anyway)

Again, in circles per normal. You telling me to "elaborate more" is ironic, you are literally the example of not elaborating more, answering questions with questions, and being as vague as you possibly can be without making any stance whatsoever.

My points about Harden using raw stats and some advanced stats go completely against what NovU said, and for Harden "making his own bed" so to say.
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby [Q] on Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:23 pm

NovU wrote:
[Q] wrote:Lebron continues to prove he's still Lebron with monster jams, magical 3s, impossible court vision (with no turnovers), and enthusiasm on the defensive end that's become contagious on the team.


He's certainly been amazing so far into the season but don't you feel he's slowed down quite a bit from his prime years? He's not as agile or fast but amazed to see his strength still overpowers the league.

Let's see if he can keep this level of playing.


Props to AD. He's mashing well with LBJ even though he plays off the ball a lot now.

If you ask me LeBron is still in his prime, arguably better than years past as he now has more experience which has led to him with better teammates, trusting them, made him wiser, and his point guard skills are better than ever. His renewed energy on the defensive end has been contagious, as he's no longer hampered with the injured groin. Tonight he had some super athletic plays, smart plays, and the combo of him and Davis brings me back to when he teamed up with prime Wade and how it was just unfair to the rest of the league
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby NovU on Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:35 pm

Considering where LBJ's fellow draft mates are today, it's just amazing to see him playing at this level. I still would put the Clippers over the Lakers both at their full strength, by very little margin though. What fun is this for the fans. You LA folks are lucky this season.

This year's East is also a massive fun. I am keen to see 76ers and Heat rivalry which I expect to gradually heat up as the season matures. Butler seems to be thriving with his new Heat team while his ex-team 76ers are also rolling.




air gord, I learned over the years that advanced stats aren't for everybody. Apparently they are for people who passed their grade 8 math class.
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby air gordon on Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:28 am

c'mon now ppl. don't tread on my forum rights. i can stand up or sit down so to speak lol

how about them heat. 39 fgm on 33 assists last nite. hows that for a stat. coach Spo again falling under the radar as one of the best coaches in his era. if winslow can somehow find a consistent perimeter shot, this team will be a top team in the East no doubt

it is what it is, novu.
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby cavs4872 on Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:43 pm

Fucking unconscious; check the shot at 2:25. :shock:

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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby NovU on Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:56 pm

What do the Bulls fans think of Lavine btw? Is he a keeper or a sell high player when the moment is right. The way I see him is he's an erratic player who needs usage to produce result inefficiently and will come up with big games every now and then, which is a double edged sword just as case with past hyped players like Monta Ellis and so on: could hinder other players development while fooling people he actually deserves all the touches/system and big paycheck.



And couple random rants to end the day:
- Miami came out flat, yuck.
- Are the Spurs and Pops finally done and should start rebuilding?
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby air gordon on Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:59 am

go figure the heat get mopped by the 76ers after throwing them heaps of praise

maybe lavine is just another ok player miscasted as a primary scorer on a mediocre team. seemed better off a third 3rd banana behind then terrible Wiggins & break out KAT.

his contract is reasonable, his work ethic is good, and seems to have a good attitude so i don't see any reason to move him. the issue is really management and coaching but lavine gets to be the fall guy because of his salary/being the team's "best" player (though it's really carter jr)

haven't seen much spurs this year. too bad aldridge and derozan couldn't swap ages. would have loved to see a core around murray and a younger aldridge.
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Scott Skiles answer to the question on how Eddy Curry can become a better rebounder
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Re: 2019-2020 Season Daily Discussion

Postby Andrew on Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:37 pm

Embiid held scoreless for the first time in college or the NBA. 0/11 from the field including 0/4 from three, and 0/3 from the line. Not often you'll see a stat line like that out of a player of his calibre.
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