The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby wdt92 on Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:42 am

[Q] wrote:Oh for sure you got kids that grew up watching Curry jack up 3s and they want to be just like him.


:lol: Weirdly enough, I like that Curry is allowed to do that. I think it's good for the league, and also isn't new. Steph shoots usually 9+ a game. Lately, he has been hitting 10 or 11 a game in his seasons. Ray Allen used to shoot 8+ on average when he was with the Sonics. Steph is just better so it makes sense to give him more looks from there. I also think it adds great benefit to shooters in the way I think defenders should be looked at. Now I don't agree Harden should be doing it, but that's another story about how I think the league is dumb for parody when the talent is not there. It's like everyone used to want centers when there wasn't anyone even projected to be as great as that era of bigs was.

I actually think the issue is more with free player movement in regards to what I blame the players mostly for. I don't know how to fix it though. I think the biggest example of what I mean started with Shaq I believe when he came to LA. There were many reports then that Orlando and Shaq agreed to terms before the infamous West & Shaq meeting that led to Shaq leaving. Then Ben Wallace did it on Detroit supposedly, etc. DeAndre did it on Dallas. That behavior is terrible for the league. It really crushed the loyalty between both parties involved. I blame that on the players and think that for defensive players particularly defensive role players that hurt the league the most and sped up the extinction process of quite a few defensive-minded roles. Because defense takes a toll on the body. Players who are defensive minded have a worse turnover than most other roles in the league because the defense is more effort than skillset. So players who are just strong defenders get replaced quickly now. Most players see that and try and make their skills more valuable. Dwight Howard said he can shoot 3s is an example.

Now don't get me wrong, Danny Ainge trading everything under the sun that he doesn't want hasn't helped either. That is my point though. In the 80s when Ainge recommended trading Bird & McHale to revive the team, Red traded Ainge. He was loyal to those loyal. This lack of loyalty in this era really has hurt the league tremendously to even the on-court product. It's showing a lot in the defense.
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby air gordon on Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:42 am

interesting points there. i think the era of defensive minded players who can't shoot are the ones becoming extinct with the exception of defensive beasts like Gobert. even he can by stymied by someone like Marc Gasol though

defensive players who guard multiple positions and can shoot are at a premium.
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby Dee4Three on Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:55 am

air gordon wrote:defensive players who guard multiple positions and can shoot are at a premium.


Some notable 3 and D contributors to championship teams. These guys could also defend multiple positions.

Bruce Bowen
Shane Battier
Tayshaun Prince
James Posey
Trevor Ariza
Metta World Peace (Shot .355% for three on 3.8 attempts per game in 09-10)

Kidd-Gilchrist would probably fall under the "extinct" players who can't shoot, but he is doing well off the bench for Charlotte thus far this season. But players like Jared Dudley are seeing a major uptick in minutes (10 more this season) because of the new "less contact" rules in the NBA, and the increased barrage of threes. He is being favored over a much younger, more athletic Hollis-Jefferson, for the simple fact that Hollis-Jefferson just can't shoot the long ball.

This is the perfect league for a player like Danny Green, who is shooting 6 threes a game at almost 50%, combine that with his solid defense, hes a shoe in for big minutes (Over 30 mpg this season).
Last edited by Dee4Three on Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby sticky-fingers on Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:02 am

You forgot LBJ :lol: (this argument is so funny )

Kawhi Leonard in 2014 ?
Harrison Barnes in 2015 ?
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby Dee4Three on Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:11 am

sticky-fingers wrote:You forgot LBJ :lol: (this argument is so funny )

Kawhi Leonard in 2014 ?
Harrison Barnes in 2015 ?


I was thinking more Iguodala (Hovered around .350% from three on 3 attempts a game during the seasons for these finals runs) than Barnes, but yes Barnes isn't a poor defender and can shoot the three.

Obviously Kawhi. And if you go further back on finals teams, you could look at Bryon Russell, Detlef Schrempf, Scottie Pippen, etc. Schrempf could guard PF's, but was also quick enough to switch out on guards/small forwards.
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby [Q] on Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:38 am

People seemed to have tuned in on the value of Anthony Roberson despite him not being a big scorer
Josh Hart has been a solid defender of both guards and bigs
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby Dee4Three on Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:47 am

[Q] wrote:People seemed to have tuned in on the value of Anthony Roberson despite him not being a big scorer
Josh Hart has been a solid defender of both guards and bigs


I feel like players like Roberson are rare in today's NBA, but hold high value with a team that believes they have the offensive weapons they need. Also, Andre Roberson is efficient, and is a capable slasher, he doesn't force the issue. Having a player like Roberson who can lock down or cover the best players in the league at his position, giving those offensive weapons less work on that end so they can focus more on offense, will always have a place on the right team.

Josh Hart is actually a very good three point shooter. 3.4 attempts a game at 40% for his career. But Hart isn't the defender overall that Roberson is. Roberson has a couple more inches and a bigger wing span, he can cover more positions.
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby sticky-fingers on Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:55 am

Dee4Three wrote:you could look at Bryon Russell, Detlef Schrempf, Scottie Pippen, etc. Schrempf could guard PF's, but was also quick enough to switch out on guards/small forwards.

So we can mention guys like Rick Fox, Thabo Sefolosha (pretty solid in 2012), or obviously Paul George.
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby Jackie Kong on Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:31 am

Quinton Ross was only a role player for a couple of seasons but he was a player that could make it in the NBA only based on his defense. I doubt Ross would even make it to summer league in today's NBA.
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby Dee4Three on Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:35 am

Jackie Kong wrote:Quinton Ross was only a role player for a couple of seasons but he was a player that could make it in the NBA only based on his defense. I doubt Ross would even make it to summer league in today's NBA.


I feel the same about Damien Wilkins. Not 100% sure he would be taken seriously in todays NBA. Players like Ross, Wilkins and Diawara just aren't looked at the same anymore.
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby Andrew on Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:51 am

Kenneth Faried is another example of a player who seemingly became outmoded the moment the league started favouring stretch fours and bigs with range.
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby Dee4Three on Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:05 am

Andrew wrote:Kenneth Faried is another example of a player who seemingly became outmoded the moment the league started favouring stretch fours and bigs with range.


Which is a shame, I enjoyed watching him play. He said in a recent interview that he's the same player, and I don't doubt it. Has to suck for a player like him who was getting a lot of playing time, and was loved by the fans.

He seems like a good dude as well.
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby sticky-fingers on Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:15 pm

One-dimensional players, players with no real shoot will disapear in this era.
Remember what Warriors did on Tony Allen in 2015 Playoffs.
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby air gordon on Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:42 am

in the playoffs it's more apparent for those type of players. every 3pt shot roberson shoots are uncontested on purpose. draymond green plays zone defense off of rondo. rubio is rubio lol

sidebar- isn't hat fat contract harry barnes got expiring this year? lol where did the time go
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:44 am

air gordon wrote:in the playoffs it's more apparent for those type of players. every 3pt shot roberson shoots are uncontested on purpose. draymond green plays zone defense off of rondo. rubio is rubio lol

sidebar- isn't hat fat contract harry barnes got expiring this year? lol where did the time go


Yes, and he's been terrible since his return. His offense in 5 games has been suspect. He's shooting 35% from the floor and 29% from three.

$23 million is a lot of money for a guy with Barnes production. But, anything is better than the Chandler Parsons project, Memphis paying him $23 million this season and once again he's hurt, played only 3 games, 15 mpg.
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby [Q] on Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:46 am

air gordon wrote:in the playoffs it's more apparent for those type of players. every 3pt shot roberson shoots are uncontested on purpose. draymond green plays zone defense off of rondo. rubio is rubio lol

It almost worked against Rondo in 2008. Unfortunately he had 3 hall of famerS to dump it to, so the Lakers eventually lost. They backed off too far and allowed him to drive and create opportunities for others
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby air gordon on Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:52 pm

Jared dudley starts almost by default since RHJ and Carroll started the season injured

Carroll should start as should dimwiddle. Russell doesn't even play the 4th
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby Dee4Three on Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:04 pm

air gordon wrote:Jared dudley starts almost by default since RHJ and Carroll started the season injured

Carroll should start as should dimwiddle. Russell doesn't even play the 4th


RHJ has played in 7 of the 10 games this season. It was expected that he was already going to be inserted into the starting lineup, but they have stuck with Dudley. But yes, Carroll has been out.

I love watching Dinwiddie play, incredibly underrated IMO. I'm not sure D'Angelo Russell is the better player of the two. That would probably not be the popular opinion, but I like the size and length he brings on defense (he's only an inch taller, but he looks longer), and he has more poise than Russell.
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby air gordon on Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:08 am

Russell only has status since he was a high pick and brooklyn gave up a 1st for him

I guess there's time to be a less turnover prone and inconsistent player but the nets best lineup has LeVert and dimwiddle in the backcourt

I guess Dudley makes sense since he's low usage and will make a 3 sometimes but Carroll is the better player when he's healthy
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:11 am

air gordon wrote:Russell only has status since he was a high pick and brooklyn gave up a 1st for him

I guess there's time to be a less turnover prone and inconsistent player but the nets best lineup has LeVert and dimwiddle in the backcourt

I guess Dudley makes sense since he's low usage and will make a 3 sometimes but Carroll is the better player when he's healthy


Absolutely, Carroll is far better especially at this point in Dudleys career.

RHJ is going to have a tough go at it if he can't fix his shot, hes a career .227% three-point shooter. However, he is only 23, and obviously players have been known to improve in that area with the right coaching/effort.
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby [Q] on Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:14 am

air gordon wrote:Russell only has status since he was a high pick and brooklyn gave up a 1st for him

I guess there's time to be a less turnover prone and inconsistent player but the nets best lineup has LeVert and dimwiddle in the backcourt

I guess Dudley makes sense since he's low usage and will make a 3 sometimes but Carroll is the better player when he's healthy

Russell and Mozgov for LeBron. I'll take that trade 100 times over
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby air gordon on Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:30 am

RHJ doesnt fit the modern day PF but there are some skills there on both sides of the ball. i heard he was injured coming into the season and the coaching staff is really high on this guy
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby benji on Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:10 am

Brian Windhorst wrote about this last week: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/2519 ... -explosion

Although offense is only up one point per possession over last season and its only been an eighth of the season. Half a point over 2016-17. You have to go back to 2015 to drop down to 105-106 from the last three years 109-110 range.
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby benji on Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:21 am

What's up massively is pace, but that may die off over the season.

2018-19: 100.6
2017-18: 97.3
2016-17: 96.4
2015-16: 95.8
2014-15: 93.9
2013-14: 93.9
2012-13: 92.0
2011-12: 91.3

The league's pace hasn't been over 98 since 1989-90. 1988-89 has the same exact pace as this season, 100.6, and a high offense at 107.8. They only took 6 threes a game though, making two. Current teams make 11 out of 31. They also foul way less. And don't turn it over as much. And control the defensive glass tremendously better. Five rebounds a game moved from offensive boards to defensive ones.

Last season was the best the league has ever shot. And the best the league has ever controlled the defensive glass. The league also turned it over less in only two other seasons this year and 2016-17. Last year was also the lowest rate the league has ever sent players to the foul line. Next lowest seasons are 2012-13 and 2014-15. 2011-12 was the season that started the far lower shooting foul rate. Turnover trend started in 2007.
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Re: The defense overall is terrible this year - On the league, not the players

Postby air gordon on Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:47 am

thought i heard the scoring within the restricted area is up this year a few % points. relatively small data sample but still
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