Tanking

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Re: Tanking

Postby air gordon on Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:12 am

fair call there. chandler contract finally approaching punt away status. knight coming off the ACL and he may have peaked before the bucks traded him. by default the suns catch a break on his contract with the salary cap hiking.

i suppose having warren and booker take turns firing away will keep them in proper lottery form. dudley's veteran leadership is quite underrated.
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Re: Tanking

Postby NovU on Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:20 am

Problem is that everyone including children know years and years of tanking will eventually land stars like the 76ers did. You dont need to be Hinkie himself to know this. But because It is regarded as derogatory and disrepectful to the sports and league, teams just couldnt adapt this strategy outright. That was until shameless Hinkie done his damage so bad, the league actually intervened. Now the 76ers are seeing the fruition of his actual work, more and more teams have means to turn to tanking it seems. Fix is badly needed. Not addressing tanking is an impossible task atm.
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Re: Tanking

Postby [Q] on Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:42 am

I agree it sucks but it is the best strategy as it doesn't do anybody any good if you're a middling team and not picking up the best talent in the draft. But then again every year there's stars like kuzma and Mitchell that got passed up on

What I do have a problem with is the sixers overdid it when they would have top picks not play for the season or they would burn through picks to get to the better players worth keeping. But it did work for them and the end justifies the means so in a few years it won't matter how they got these guys
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Re: Tanking

Postby Jackie Kong on Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:53 am

So what Hinkie did helped 76ers on the long run but he did 2 things the way I see it:
1) He tanked big time. Many GMs before him tanked and many saw the benefits later. Many even won multiple championships.
2) He mocked the system completely. It takes a lot more than just tanking to lead a team to a 28 games losing streak. Dude just wanted to lose games to prove a point. And he got fired for that. The mocking.
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Re: Tanking

Postby benji on Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:32 pm

the thing is, teams have done this for decades

look at the fucking Clippers

from 1982-2010 the Clippers drafted how many times in the top ten picks? #2 (Terry Cummings), #4 (Byron Scott), #8, #3 (Benoit Benjamin), #4 (Reggie Williams), #1 (Danny Manning) and #6, #4, #2 (Danny Ferry), #8, #7, #2 (Antonio McDyess), #7, #1 (Michael Olowokandi), #4 (Lamar Odom), #3 (Darius Miles), #2 (Tyson Chandler), #8. #6, #4 (Shaun Livingston), #7, #1 (Blake Griffin), #8

getting stuck in the mid-lottery constantly doesn't mean you can't turn it around but it does keep you in a state of constantly rolling over each draftee until you realize they suck or you don't want to pay them, take the Kings for example, if you cut out their period of contention in the early 2000s

from 1989-1999 the Kings piled up #1 (Pervis Ellison), #7, #3 (Billy Owens), #7, #7. #8, #7...they were bailed out with none of their high draft picks, their best draftee was at #14 (Pedja Stojakovic) and they lucked into flipping Billy Owens for Mitch Richmond who they later were able to flip for Chris Webber, AND they flipped two non-top five lottery picks Jason Williams (#7) and Corliss Williamson (#13) for Mike Bibby and Doug Christie to fill out their 2002 championship starting lineup

since 2007 they've picked #10, #4 (Tyreke Evans), #5 (DeMarcus Cousins), #7, #5 (Thomas Robinson), #7, #8, #6, #8, #5 (De'Aaron Fox) and #10

the Sixers "tanked" before too, they drafted #9 (Clarence Weatherspoon), #2 (Shawn Bradley), #6 (Sharone Wright), #3 (Jerry Stackhouse), #1 (Allen Iverson), #2 (Keith Van Horn) and #8 (Larry Hughes) over the 1990s, and made the Finals in 2001

the Dallas Mavericks made the Western Conference Finals in 1988, were coming off two 50+ win seasons...then from 1990-1998 they went: 28-54, 22-60, 11-71, 13-69, 36-46, 26-56, 24-58, 20-62

this got them the #6, #4 (Jim Jackson), #4 (Jamal Mashburn), #2 (Jason Kidd), #9 (Samaki Walker), and #6 (Robert Traylor) picks as a reward...none of whom were on the 50 win team in 2001, let alone the 60 win team that made the Conference Finals in 2003, unless you count trading Traylor for Dirk on draft night

how about the Chicago Bulls?

from 1999-2008 they rack up #1 (Elton Brand), #4 (Marcus Fizer) and #7, #4 (Eddy Curry), #2 (Jay Williams), #7 (Kirk Hinrich), #3 (Ben Gordon), #2 (LaMarcus Aldridge), #9 and #1 (Derrick Rose) how many of these players did they flip or deal before they signed superstar Carlos Boozer and became a multi-season top seed?

Golden State starts four lottery picks and a second round find, so does OKC, since 2006 the Timberwolves have churned through a #6, #7, #3 (OJ Mayo), #5 (Rubio) and #6, #4 (Wesley Johnson), #2 (Derrick Williams), #9, #1 (KAT), #5 (Kris Dunn) and #7 picks, they traded another lottery pick (#13 Zach LaVine) to acquire Butler, and traded Love for two #1 picks in Wiggins and Anthony Bennett

Boston when healthy has a #1 (Irving), three #3's (Horford, Brown and Tatum), and a #6 (Smart) as their rotation, and Gordon Hayward is a #9 pick...they didn't have to "tank" because the Nets are currently doing it for them

the East leading Raptors history is one of a #7, #2 (Marcus Camby), #9, #4 (Antawn Jamison), #5 (Jonathan Bender), #4 (Chris Bosh), #8, #7, #1 (Andrea Bargnani), #9 (DeRozan), #5 (Valancinunas), #8 and #9 (Poeltl)

the other two recent expansion teams have histories littered with lottery picks...

the Grizzlies have picked #6, #3 (Shareef Abdur-Rahim), #4 (Antonio Daniels), #2 (Mike Bibby), #2 (Steve Francis), #2 (Stromile Swift), #6, #4 (Drew Gooden), #4 (Mike Conley), #5 (Kevin Love), #2 (Hasheem Thabeet) as well as taking Kyle Lowry at #24

the Bobcats/Hornets have the glorious history of #2 (Emeka Okafor), #5 (Raymond Felton), #3 (Adam Morrison), #8, #9. #9 (Kemba), #2 (Kidd-Gilchrist), #4 (Cody Zeller), #9 and #9 (Kaminsky)

The Lakers have picked #7, #2 (D'Angelo Russell), #2 (Brandon Ingram) and #2 (Lonzo Ball) the last five years while amassing 126 wins, one fewer than the Sixers who now have 127 wins over the last five seasons

the point of all these examples is to show that the Sixers did not do anything that needs to be "curbed" because they literally did nothing different than anyone else except cut their losses faster, they realized Iguodala (#9) wasn't worth the max, Evan Turner (#2) wasn't worth anything, Michael Carter-Williams (#11) was padding stats, Joel Embiid (#3) was a superstar, Elfrid Payton (#10) was worth less than Dario Saric, Jahil Okafor (#3) was too much trouble and Ben Simmons (#1) was worth waiting for too

Jrue Holiday (#17) they flipped for a #6 pick (Noel) they got 142 games out of before deciding he'd cost too much to be a reserve...Holiday played 139 games over the three full seasons the Sixers had Noel, during which they also squeezed 111 games of 16/6/7 out of MCW

if anything, the Sixers should be held up as a prized example of a team that cut their losses quickly so they could be in position to be flexible and put together the pieces to contend rather than sat in the lottery for a decade or more

really, if you criticize the Sixers you should criticize the Cavaliers even more since their starting lineup is built out of what four #1 picks brought in LeBron, Irving, Bennett and Wiggins (Love) usually along with a #4 (Tristan Thompson) and their tankfest for LeBron was far more shameless than what the Sixers did by churning through D-League prospects, they hired fucking John Lucas who did brilliant things like play Chris Mihm on the perimeter and Jumaine Jones inside, spent time "experimenting" with Darius Miles at point guard, regularly never called timeouts during blowouts, and had no problem with Ricky Davis shooting at his own rim to try and get a triple double

the Sixers during the four years of terror never finished worse than 26th on defense and had a 13th and 17th place finish, good indications they were actually trying and mostly that they just couldn't score (and still were only 12th this year, but 4th on defense) as they finished dead last by far in the four bad years (they were 26th on offense and 15th on defense in Doug Collins final season with All-Star Jrue Holiday, Young, Turner, etc.)

actually now that i think about, the Sixers hired John Lucas in the mid-1990s and he tried things like having Shawn Bradley play point-forward that resulted in the Sixers grabbing #3 (Jerry Stackhouse), #1 (Allen Iverson) and #2 (Keith Van Horn) picks that the team turned into the parts of a Finals team that had three "50 win" seasons...weird how there was never whining about "tanking" back then :roll:
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Re: Tanking

Postby shadowgrin on Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:45 pm

It's probably Mark Cuban bitching on Hinkie/Sixers to the league commissioner and other team owners.
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Re: Tanking

Postby benji on Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:51 pm

actually, you want to talk about Tank Masters, how about Gregg Popovich?

not only did he use the opportunity to fire a coach coming off 62 and 59 win seasons because his superstar was injured and take his job, he then held not only his superstar out for the rest of the season he also had second best player not bother coming back after the All-Star break, and turned his entire offense over to Mad Max and a 37 year old Dominique Wilkins while nobody played any defense :bowdown:

all he got for that was Tim Duncan and a bunch of rings
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Re: Tanking

Postby [Q] on Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:42 pm

Lol I forgot the Clippers were the worst team ever before David Stern got them Chris Paul. They tanked before it was a thing but not on purpose. Donald Sterling is the worst owner in the history of sports. Danny Ferry went to Italy so he didn't have to play for them
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Re: Tanking

Postby air gordon on Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:42 pm

hey benji, much obliged again...

is it considered tanking if the GM continues to miss on draft picks?

kudos really to Ainge for finding someone to tank for him and hiring brad stevens.

how about the clips during larry brown's short stint making the playoffs. i suppose you can say that tank did have a draft pick nucleus
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Re: Tanking

Postby NovU on Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:55 am

LoL @ benji the guardian of Hinkieology.


Problem is that Hinkie's long term tanking plan actually was working and was opening up a lot of GM/Owner's eyes. Usually teams tank 1 or 2 seasons hard and go from there. But blatant stockpiling for future assets/picks continued on, as a result everyone wants their own Simmons and Embiid now days. While a select few teams are competing to win, we have 10 teams trying to win a tank war. This makes 70%-80% of season games unwatchable.
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Re: Tanking

Postby Lamrock on Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:56 pm

The hard thing about "fixing" the tanking problem is that in doing so, you'd be making it nearly impossible for small-market teams to contend for titles. Like imagine if we did a draft wheel. The Kings go 22-60 because they're starting five Evan Turners, and what do they have to look forward to? The 29th pick in the draft.. Savvier teams might find ways to screw over Billy King types and find diamonds in the rough, but eliminating any sort of help for the worst teams in the league would make it hard for small market teams and the Knicks to ever have much of a chance.

Okay, well maybe we can give all lottery teams the same odds? But then the small market teams always get the lower seeds because they don't want to lose the playoff revenue...

The NFL doesn't really have a tanking problem. Sure, it might happen occasionally, but the NFL will always have more parity than the NBA due to the much higher variance in the sport, leading to more upsets and even the worst teams having some hope coming into the season. They play far less games, playoffs are single-elimination, there are more players per team and players get injured constantly. So you very rarely see back-to-back champions.

But the NFL still puts in a ton of rules to increase parity. They have a hard cap. There are more unguaranteed contracts, and all sorts of rules I don't understand such as compensation draft picks..

While the NFL's rules might not be the main reason there's so much parity, that doesn't mean the NBA shouldn't consider taking some cues from it. A hard cap could also hurt small-market teams, and the player's union will probably block any attempt to get rid of max player salaries, but I believe that to limit tanking, the solution might have nothing to do with lottery reform.
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Re: Tanking

Postby NovU on Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:50 pm

First step to solving a problem always is recognizing there is a problem. This is also something guardians of hinkieology have hard time grasping.

Tankathon is well and alive. Teams that have wins in meer or under teens by mid season have nearly nothing to play for. In fact a lot of teams start tanking way sooner even before season begins. You can make an argument that players dont tank, but decisions are made above in the management. Players neither coach cant stop it, rather encouraged to lose.

Also why penalize teams like Clippers and Knicks that have no future but fought hard to make the playoffs. Fuck Hinkie and his guardian angels. There is a problem.

My personal solution be give nearly all equal chances to non playoffs but exclude two worst teams from winning the lotto or runner up, instead guarantee top 7 picks(3rd to 7th).
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Re: Tanking

Postby [Q] on Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:45 am

Lol that would be hilarious if the worst team didn't have a chance at winning the lottery. They would be placed 4th (5th in the new rules)

Then they would actually try to win games at the end of the year to get out of the bottom. It works in premier league where shitty teams try to avoid being relegated. Hell, the bottom team should get relegated to the G league lol
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Re: Tanking

Postby benji on Sat May 05, 2018 5:19 pm

It's the guarantee in the lottery system that encourages losing games, the worst teams should have the best odds though unless we want to punish bad teams even more, but they shouldn't have a floor they can't fall past that locks them into the top four or five picks. Make it eighth or something and the problem mostly goes away.

It's actually only been in the last three drafts that the worst team wound up with the top pick consistently. The other instance was 2003-2004 when the Cavs (tied with Denver) and Magic won LeBron and Dwight back-to-back. The other worst teams winning the top pick were 1988 when the Clippers earned Danny Manning and 1990 when the Nets earned Derrick Coleman and both of those were instances when the draft either gave every team equal odds, or didn't reward the worst team significantly more.

It should be noted that things were different in 1996-1998, as the Raptors and Grizzlies were prohibited from getting the first pick. The Raptors actually won the 1996 lottery but it was redrawn and the Sixers, who had incredibly outsized odds, got it on the second pull. The same thing happened in 1997 when the Spurs were arguably picking as if they were the second worse team (and Celtics the worst team) as the Grizzlies couldn't win. The Grizzlies actually then won in 1998, but it was redrawn and the Clippers got the pick, which worked out because there was a huge debate that year about drafting Bibby #1 when Kandi was a 7 footer, so they got to have the Clippers make the choice for them and do the typical Clippers fuckup. (The best part of that draft though is that the best center went undrafted.)

The funny thing is that the excuse for changing the lottery is to punish teams doing like the Sixers, but the Sixers only won the lottery once. 2016 when they got Simmons. Embiid they took at #3, Okafor at #3 and they got #3 again last year but traded with Boston for the Nets #1 pick. The Lakers have picked #2 three years in a row!

The Cavaliers turned 2.8% into #1 (Irving), 19.9% into #4 (Thompson), 15.6% into #1 (Bennett), 1.7% into #1 (Wiggins).
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Re: Tanking

Postby benji on Sat May 05, 2018 5:28 pm

NovU wrote:Also why penalize teams like Clippers and Knicks that have no future but fought hard to make the playoffs.

Team records over the final thirty games of the season:
PHO: 3-27
MEM: 4-26
NYK: 6-24
DAL: 8-22
ORL: 9-21
CHI: 9-21
BRK: 9-21
ATL: 9-21
SAC: 11-19
LAC: 15-15

The Knicks also went 12-39 over their final 51 games...
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Re: Tanking

Postby [Q] on Sun May 06, 2018 2:33 am

Sixers did have a bit of luck in who fell to them in their drafts. Noel also had potential as he fell to them due to injury concerns. 96-98 was interesting as iverson could have been a raptor. and LOL @ clippers in the bibby/kandi debate. Bard Miller was definitely the choice here lol
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Re: Tanking

Postby NovU on Mon May 07, 2018 1:43 am

benji, Knicks were fighting until Porzingis started having health problem and completely shutting down for the season. Reward they get is 9th best lottery chance.

benji wrote:The funny thing is that the excuse for changing the lottery is to punish teams doing like the Sixers, but the Sixers only won the lottery once. 2016 when they got Simmons. Embiid they took at #3, Okafor at #3 and they got #3 again last year but traded with Boston for the Nets #1 pick. The Lakers have picked #2 three years in a row!

The Cavaliers turned 2.8% into #1 (Irving), 19.9% into #4 (Thompson), 15.6% into #1 (Bennett), 1.7% into #1 (Wiggins).

Which is why it is just better to get rid of the system worst team getting best chance at winning the lotto. The worst team isn't winning the lotto then discourage teams from becoming the worst by giving the worst 2 teams 3-7th. They still can draft Wade, Bosh, and TJ Ford.

Not punishing teams like the Sixers is punishing teams that genuinely fight for the playoffs spots that also have no future unless building through lottery. Might as well have them in the same tank. Also you don't want the half the league tanking. It's stupid.
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