Was Larry Bird Better Than LeBron James?

[NovU]

phpBB [video]

some ting interesante from last nite's bballbreakdown vid

ADVANTAGE JAMES
Physique
Finishing
Versatility
Athleticism
Dribbling
Longevity (expected)

ADVANTAGE BIRD
Team Player
Passing
Shooting
Off-the-Ball
Rebounding
Hustle
Mentality
Higher IQ
Clutch
Trash Talking

Tie
Defense
Career Achievement



Perhaps the gap between these two greatest SF isn't as large upon closer examination.

[Dee4Three]

I saw nobody replied to this, I think a lot of people don't like to get involved in this debate.

Here is my take, and in my opinion it's not even close who was the better player.

Lebron has the athletic advantage, and hes a better dribbler, but he doesn't have the advantage in any other aspect of the game. Even with bird being extremely limited with jumping and speed, he could decimate teams either by taking over offensively, or getting his teammates involved. He was also an incredibly underrated defender who amassed over 2 steals a game in a single season, and 98 blocks (The 98 blocks beat any of Lebrons single season bests, despite Lebron being far more athletic and physically imposing). Bird was also a better rebounder in a time where the game was even more physical, and there were better "big guys" in the league. Bird is the 4th best POSITION rebounder that I have ever seen behind Dennis Rodman, Charles Barkley, and Moses Malone.

Even in Bird's last season (where he had trouble moving around on the court because of his back, he looks like he is hurting all the time), he could still take over games because of his will power/skills/basketball mind. Watch him put up 49 in his final season against Drexler and the physical Blazers.

phpBB [video]

Bird played in a time where shot blockers/physical bigs roamed the paint almost every night. The likes of Patrick Ewing, Mark Eaton, Ralph Sampson, Moses Malone, David Robinson (late 80s), Sam Bowie, Hakeem Olajuwon, Bob McAdoo, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Robert Parish etc etc. Lebron was isolated on Steph Curry numerous times in last years finals and failed to score at the hoop, or hit his jump shots (That size difference is insane). Lebron (at his best, in 11-12 and 12-13 for shooting) is an average or above average outside shooter, and has trouble finishing NOW with contact in the paint. However, his outside shooting in his career is average or below, and now statistically his shooting outside of the paint is well below average. Imagine if Lebron charged in with his off arm on Olajuwon? Or Robinson? Or any of the guys listed above? First off, he would probably get hit a lot harder, but he would also be swatted numerous times. He can bully in todays game sometimes, but not back than. Charles Oakley/Buck Williams/Charles Barkley /Karl Malone etc etc wouldn’t have any part of it.

Here is the first 10 years comparison of the two. Even stats wise, Bird was superior , tied in blocks, superior in steals, rebounds, FT, 3’s and FG%. Bird messed up his back in 1986 offseason, so 3 years of this is with his back injury as well. For those of you who are younger or have not done enough research, and think of Bird as a "3pt shooter" or "Just a shooter". Look at the three point attempts in the first 10 years below, Lebron attempted over double. Bird averaged 29.9 PPG in a single season and was hardly taking any threes, even admitting he didn't like the three pointer. Birds damage was done in the in between game, and in the paint.




In conclusion, Bird was the superior player in my opinion.

[Murat]

he could still take over games because of his will power/skills/basketball mind.

man this sums it all.

i also agree with the bigs you mentioned. now we have demarcus cousins as the best center of nba, lol

[Jeffx]

How can you say LeBron's not a team player? He's been criticized for not being selfish enough at crunch time.

As for defense, there is no tie....LeBron wins, hands down. Larry (and Magic) were not great on-ball defenders. How many cats with his size, speed & strength can cover 1-5?


Comparing players from different eras is tough....the NBA has changed a lot, even from Jordan's time.

[Dee4Three]

How can you say LeBron's not a team player? He's been criticized for not being selfish enough at crunch time.

As for defense, there is no tie....LeBron wins, hands down. Larry (and Magic) were not great on-ball defenders. How many cats with his size, speed & strength can cover 1-5?

I never said Lebron James wasn't a team player. Never once. He is very much a team player.

Magic Johnson was a very good on ball defender, that is not true at all. Stats back that up, but you can watch video and back it up without them. Christ, even in Magics short spurt in 95-96 he was a good on ball defender.

Lebron is not as good as a team defender as Bird, he gets lost or gets lazy on defense far too often. As a one on one defender ,I havn't seen anything over the top from lebron either. I would take Bird on the defensive end as well (overall a better defender).

Read the whole post before a comment like that, not once did I say Lebron was not a team player.

The game has changed, yes. It's not all bad, but it's soft with far less talented/agressive big men, that includes Small Forwards, power forwards, and centers.

Size, speed, strength, and dribbling go to Lebron.

The rest goes to Bird.

[Jeffx]

I was referring to NovU's list.

[Dee4Three]

I was referring to NovU's list.

Ahh, I see that now. I don't think he was saying Lebron wasn't a team player, I think he was giving Larry the advantage in that category.

[NovU]

Perhaps I should acknowledge 'team player' was a poor term to use because one could argue LBJ is a great team player as he's known to make teammates better.

What I really meant was that LBJ needs team structure in certain ways to be truly effective and maximize his talent mostly because he plays out of position so often and does a lot of different things at the same time. This often ends up putting teammates into awkward role and takes away from what they're supposed to do at their respective positions. Such versatility often times is a great thing as he can do better than what his teammates can offer at the position, but also can be a minus in team chemistry because it could put teammates in not-so-comfort zone. Also him roaming around the perimeter isn't a threat not as much as Bird, this puts bit more burden onto offense initiators. Whereas Bird played more defined role as a SF/PF.

[Sauru]

this is a debate i hate getting into as i feel too many forms of bias are taking into account. the fact that its old school vs new school or black vs white just tends to get me to avoid it. most young people today show incredible ignorance when they claim bird could not play in todays nba. also older fans show incredible ignorance when they say lebron would not be as good in the tougher 80's style of basketball. the simple fact is these 2 are the best 2 small forwards to play the game and they would both excel in either era.

as for who i think is better? well are we talking about longevity? lebron wins hands down. are we talking which player was better at their peak? i am giving that one to bird. we talking individual talent? i am going lebron. are we talking who i would pick first to lead my team? going bird.


i also want to point out that anyone claiming its "not even close" should just be removed from the conversation

[Dee4Three]

this is a debate i hate getting into as i feel too many forms of bias are taking into account. the fact that its old school vs new school or black vs white just tends to get me to avoid it. most young people today show incredible ignorance when they claim bird could not play in todays nba. also older fans show incredible ignorance when they say lebron would not be as good in the tougher 80's style of basketball. the simple fact is these 2 are the best 2 small forwards to play the game and they would both excel in either era.

as for who i think is better? well are we talking about longevity? lebron wins hands down. are we talking which player was better at their peak? i am giving that one to bird. we talking individual talent? i am going lebron. are we talking who i would pick first to lead my team? going bird.


i also want to point out that anyone claiming its "not even close" should just be removed from the conversation

That's your opinion (the last statement), just like it's mine that it's not even close. I go with Bird 100% of the time regardless of the situation. I certainly should not be removed from the conversation, I brought up many valid points to why I have my opinion on the comparison.

I don't give individual talent to Lebron, to me that's not even close. We just have a difference in opinion.

[Sauru]

i just feel when someone says "its not even close" its disrespecting the other player. its like saying "why are we even talking about this". they are clearly the top 2 and if given the choice i would take a prime larry over a prime lebron every time. hell in the all time thread the main reason i used robert parish was to get jordan and bird on the same team together. i feel these are the 2 best to ever play the position (with pippen in 3rd) and the discussion should go deeper than someone saying its not even close. i will say you did go deeper in your comment and my comment was more geared towarded the endless "its not even close" comments i saw on the youtube video. i feel those comments are heavily influenced by their race and era

[Dee4Three]

i just feel when someone says "its not even close" its disrespecting the other player. its like saying "why are we even talking about this". they are clearly the top 2 and if given the choice i would take a prime larry over a prime lebron every time. hell in the all time thread the main reason i used robert parish was to get jordan and bird on the same team together. i feel these are the 2 best to ever play the position (with pippen in 3rd) and the discussion should go deeper than someone saying its not even close. i will say you did go deeper in your comment and my comment was more geared towarded the endless "its not even close" comments i saw on the youtube video. i feel those comments are heavily influenced by their race and era

I respect what you are saying. And yes, some of the comments are certainly influenced by outside bias that doesn't even include the two as basketball players. But you are stereotyping by automatically assuming I'm one of those guys (correct me if I'm wrong or if I just read it wrong). I have been watching basketball religiously since the late 80s (ages 5 til now). I've watched both play (unfortunately Bird was in his last couple seasons when I was old enough to remember).

I also take Pippen over Lebron. But again, that is not a popular opinion, but I can handle that. I have backup for the way I feel about any comparison.

I like how real you are though in your post about calling out the obvious bias and stereotypes that occur when this comparison is talked about. I don't look at it as black and white, old school and new school, I'm talking about them as basketball players/leaders in general.

[Sauru]

your post was not i was referencing when i made that statement, i meant the people who pretty much throw it out there like "lol bird cant even jump, its not even close" and thats their entire argument. your post was not like that at all which is nice. so yeah i was not referring to you at all but the many posts where people totally disregard the other player based on 1 (usually inaccurate) statement

about pippen, i feel he is one of if not the most under rated player ever. thats a huge statement to make as he is a hall of famer but i feel if he played for any other team we would be talking about him much differently today. i find it funny how people hype lebron for his ability to do it all but never give pippen the same credit. he was lebron before lebron was lebron

[NovU]

LoL its becoming almost idiotic now.

Pippen and LeBron lulzz... I will actually give u something that make more sense. Dirk vs Bird.

[Dee4Three]

Hold on... you started this thread, were those your words in the first post? Starting to wonder after the most recent comment. The only thing Dirk and Bird have in common game wise is shooting, but Nowitzki takes more threes (he took double per game than Bird did for their careers). There games have no similarities after that, I take Bird over Dirk, Pippen over Lebron, and I take Dirk over Lebron as well. Heres the thing: You don't start a thread with a debate question, and than make fun of the comments presented in the thread, especially when they havn't gotten out of hand. I felt me and the other guy were having a pretty good conversation.

I take Pippen over Lebron for defense, and finishing ability as well. Pippen is the best defensive small forward of all time, he also was a better outside SHOOTER than Lebron, and he was an equal dribbler (Pippen played point forward a lot). Pippen was one of the best ever at finishing with contact at the hoop.

Dirk's 10-11 performance alone tells you everything about what he brings to the table. Watch Lebron in that series get lost on defense over and over again (even getting yelled at by Wade once), and watch him have nothing but issues (or lack of effort) in taking over. Dirks amazing ability to score, and his sheer drive and determination to win, and his being one of the best teammates (never caused an issue) of his time.... I would die to have Dirk lead my team.

Again, we can all be civil here and not get pissed. I am giving logical reasons why I have my opinions on these comparisons.

Did you watch Pippen in his prime? Did you sit in front of a TV and watch him through the 90's and early 00's? Did you pay attention to his skill set, what he brought to the table every night?

[NovU]

Real difference is LBJ turns any bottom seeder into an instant contender. There are only handful of those that has done this in history. Dirk is closer to Bird than Pippen to James.

ps : Dirk is underrated.

[Dee4Three]

Real difference is LBJ turns any bottom seeder into an instant contender. There are only handful of those that has done this in history. Dirk is closer to Bird than Pippen to James.

ps : Dirk is underrated.

Bird is one of them, before his arrival the Celtics went 29-53 in 78-79. His rookie season in 79-80 they went 61-21. Both of those guys can turn a team around.

And yes, Dirk has been underrated for a really long time. I agree with you there.

[Sauru]

LoL its becoming almost idiotic now.

Pippen and LeBron lulzz... I will actually give u something that make more sense. Dirk vs Bird.

a post like this is exactly why i consider pippen the most underrated player in history. i sure as fuck would take him over isiah thomas who for some reason wants to world to think pippen was shit

[Dee4Three]

LoL its becoming almost idiotic now.

Pippen and LeBron lulzz... I will actually give u something that make more sense. Dirk vs Bird.

a post like this is exactly why i consider pippen the most underrated player in history. i sure as fuck would take him over isiah thomas who for some reason wants to world to think pippen was shit

Pippen was amazing, his game was so smooth. He has always been extremely underrated.

[Mandich]

Where is your backup that Pippen is superior to Lebron? Other than your eye testimony? Btw LeBron has a better career 3pt%. What the hell are you talking about? Pippen over LeBron?

Bird vs. Lebron is/should be a debate just like Kobe/Jordan, except MJ is better than LeBron and Bird than Kobe so it's closer, but in reality: Bird is a once in a lifetime player who just by his play and accomplisments alone deserve to be in the discussion(a la Kobe), but man...this guy LeBron James man...

[Dee4Three]

Where is your backup that Pippen is superior to Lebron? Other than your eye testimony? Btw LeBron has a better career 3pt%. What the hell are you talking about? Pippen over LeBron?

Bird vs. Lebron is/should be a debate just like Kobe/Jordan, except MJ is better than LeBron and Bird than Kobe so it's closer, but in reality: Bird is a once in a lifetime player who just by his play and accomplisments alone deserve to be in the discussion(a la Kobe), but man...this guy LeBron James man...

Since when does "shooting" only include 3's? A shooter means midrange as well. I take Pippen on Defense every day of the week, as well as someone going to the basket. Lebron scores in the paint 90% of the time by using his off arm to push off (Which conveniently never gets called), that is why he has the paint points he does. As well as not having strong defensive PF's/C's in the league now (Exceptions are Deandre Jordan sometimes, and Hassan Whiteside).

And yes, eye testimony has to do with a lot Menopauss. That's the point right? Watching them play and basing the critiques off of what you see? That's how opinions are formed logically. Stats can aide in it as well. Lebron stuffs a stat sheet, but that doesn't make me take him over Pippen or Bird. Pippen single seasons best steals were 232, and he had another season of 211, Lebron never eclipsed 180. Pippen also recorded over 100 blocks in a single season (101 in 1989), Lebron has never cracked 80. Pippens shear determination on defense, with his ability to finish at the rim and also knock down J's, makes him my choice. He was also a gifted passer and rebounder.

[Mandich]

He was also an incredibly underrated defender who amassed over 2 steals a game in a single season, and 98 blocks (The 98 blocks beat any of Lebrons single season bests, despite Lebron being far more athletic and physically imposing)

Since is this more important than actually playing defense ? Bird is underrated defensively, LeBron perhaps a tad overrated,

Let's take both players primes into account, with Lebron's being (2007-08 to 2013-14), and Bird's (1981-82 to 1987-88)

Bird's teams finished 6th, 7th, 3rd, 5th, 1st, 9th, 17th in defensive rating during those seasons, with Bird not being the clear cut defensive player during that tenure (DJ, Parish, even legless Walton). He was at the very top though and cases could be made he was the best defensive player on those Celtic teams.

That brings the average of Bird's teams right at 6.85

LeBron's teams finished 11th, 3rd, 7th, 5th, 4th, 9th, 11th with LeBron being the defensive backbone for those teams, the clear-cut best defensive player on the team. Try find a teammate of his that contributed as much as he did.

That brings the average of Lebron's teams right at 7.14

That's just the defensive end.

Let's take a look at their Stats throughout their prime, during the REGULAR SEASON.

Larry Bird

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
24.3	9.4	6	.580	118	101	25.3	.231

LeBron James

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
26.2	7.1	6.7	.606	120	101	30.1	.283

Yes, but bird did the real damage in the Playoffs.

Look at this. Even LeBron's Dallas series is taken into account.

Larry Bird

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
25.2	10.2	6.6	.562	116	105	22.1	.185

Diz guy LeBron James

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
28.1	8.5	6.3	.591	118	101	28.9	.261

Bird is the 4th best POSITION rebounder that I have ever seen behind Dennis Rodman, Charles Barkley, and Moses Malone.

Is there any proof, other than your eye witness ?

Even in Bird's last season (where he had trouble moving around on the court because of his back, he looks like he is hurting all the time), he could still take over games because of his will power/skills/basketball mind. Watch him put up 49 in his final season against Drexler and the physical Blazers.

Well that's what happens when you arguably have the greatest basketball mind ever and are an All-time great. LeBron lead the 07 Cavs to victory against the stacked Pistons and also provided one of the best Playoff performances to date.

Lebron was isolated on Steph Curry numerous times in last years finals and failed to score at the hoop

Really? Any proof?

Lebron (at his best, in 11-12 and 12-13 for shooting) is an average or above average outside shooter

.391% during those years, better than Scottie Pippen's peak year, despite Lebron attempting 4 3pts per game for his career compared to Pippen's 2.5, yet Pippen is the better outside shooter....

and has trouble finishing NOW with contact in the paint.

.722% within 2 feet regular season. .724$ Playoffs. What are you talking about ?

his outside shooting in his career is average or below

LeBron .340%
Kobe.329%
Pippen .326%

Career 3pt averages.

As well as not having strong defensive PF's/C's in the league now (Exceptions are Deandre Jordan sometimes, and Hassan Whiteside).

2003-2016 NBA Averages: 6ft7, 221 Lbs
!980-1990 NBA Averages: 6ft7, 208 Lbs

And yes, eye testimony has to do with a lot Menopauss. That's the point right? Watching them play and basing the critiques off of what you see?

Perfect way to biasly come to a wrong conclussion.

CONCLUSSION:

No other perimeter player in the history of the game, other the GOAT MJ can compare to LeBron James. I'm not saying in championships, in legacy, in enjoyment of watching, but in sheer basketball impact on a franchise. Look up the stats; his worst peak year is just a tad off Bird's best, and his best is god like.

There is nothing wrong in saying Bird is better, but players from older eras tend to be overblown by the media, and people buy into it. They remember them by the stories people in documentaries/interviews give about them, just to celebrate the greatness of the NBA. That's Ok. Statistically though, it really is clear who made a bigger impact.

But to say friggin Scottie Pippen is better. To say Dirk is better. I'm not even going to get into how wrong those two comparisons are. Just proves your ignorance. Or something else...

[Dee4Three]

He was also an incredibly underrated defender who amassed over 2 steals a game in a single season, and 98 blocks (The 98 blocks beat any of Lebrons single season bests, despite Lebron being far more athletic and physically imposing)

Since is this more important than actually playing defense ? Bird is underrated defensively, LeBron perhaps a tad overrated,

Let's take both players primes into account, with Lebron's being (2007-08 to 2013-14), and Bird's (1981-82 to 1987-88)

Bird's teams finished 6th, 7th, 3rd, 5th, 1st, 9th, 17th in defensive rating during those seasons, with Bird not being the clear cut defensive player during that tenure (DJ, Parish, even legless Walton). He was at the very top though and cases could be made he was the best defensive player on those Celtic teams.

That brings the average of Bird's teams right at 6.85

LeBron's teams finished 11th, 3rd, 7th, 5th, 4th, 9th, 11th with LeBron being the defensive backbone for those teams, the clear-cut best defensive player on the team. Try find a teammate of his that contributed as much as he did.

That brings the average of Lebron's teams right at 7.14

That's just the defensive end.

Let's take a look at their Stats throughout their prime, during the REGULAR SEASON.

Larry Bird

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
24.3	9.4	6	.580	118	101	25.3	.231

LeBron James

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
26.2	7.1	6.7	.606	120	101	30.1	.283

Yes, but bird did the real damage in the Playoffs.

Look at this. Even LeBron's Dallas series is taken into account.

Larry Bird

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
25.2	10.2	6.6	.562	116	105	22.1	.185

Diz guy LeBron James

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
28.1	8.5	6.3	.591	118	101	28.9	.261

Bird is the 4th best POSITION rebounder that I have ever seen behind Dennis Rodman, Charles Barkley, and Moses Malone.

Is there any proof, other than your eye witness ?

Even in Bird's last season (where he had trouble moving around on the court because of his back, he looks like he is hurting all the time), he could still take over games because of his will power/skills/basketball mind. Watch him put up 49 in his final season against Drexler and the physical Blazers.

Well that's what happens when you arguably have the greatest basketball mind ever and are an All-time great. LeBron lead the 07 Cavs to victory against the stacked Pistons and also provided one of the best Playoff performances to date.

Lebron was isolated on Steph Curry numerous times in last years finals and failed to score at the hoop

Really? Any proof?

Lebron (at his best, in 11-12 and 12-13 for shooting) is an average or above average outside shooter

.391% during those years, better than Scottie Pippen's peak year, despite Lebron attempting 4 3pts per game for his career compared to Pippen's 2.5, yet Pippen is the better outside shooter....

and has trouble finishing NOW with contact in the paint.

.722% within 2 feet regular season. .724$ Playoffs. What are you talking about ?

his outside shooting in his career is average or below

LeBron .340%
Kobe.329%
Pippen .326%

Career 3pt averages.

As well as not having strong defensive PF's/C's in the league now (Exceptions are Deandre Jordan sometimes, and Hassan Whiteside).

2003-2016 NBA Averages: 6ft7, 221 Lbs
!980-1990 NBA Averages: 6ft7, 208 Lbs

And yes, eye testimony has to do with a lot Menopauss. That's the point right? Watching them play and basing the critiques off of what you see?

Perfect way to biasly come to a wrong conclussion.

CONCLUSSION:

No other perimeter player in the history of the game, other the GOAT MJ can compare to LeBron James. I'm not saying in championships, in legacy, in enjoyment of watching, but in sheer basketball impact on a franchise. Look up the stats; his worst peak year is just a tad off Bird's best, and his best is god like.

There is nothing wrong in saying Bird is better, but players from older eras tend to be overblown by the media, and people buy into it. They remember them by the stories people in documentaries/interviews give about them, just to celebrate the greatness of the NBA. That's Ok. Statistically though, it really is clear who made a bigger impact.

But to say friggin Scottie Pippen is better. To say Dirk is better. I'm not even going to get into how wrong those two comparisons are. Just proves your ignorance. Or something else...

Calm down, it will really all be okay.

None of what you posted above changes how I feel in the least. My opinions are based on watching, and I would take those three over him. I stated that lebron stuffs a stat sheet, so the stats are the stats. I used defensive stat examples to explain why he wasn't all world stat wise either. Like I stated, Bird and Pippen's defensive numbers exceeded Lebron's numerous times, and bird was a better rebounder. I mentioned Bird's first 10 years compared to Lebron to also prove that they can hang stat wise.

I stand 100% by what I said for the reasons I would take those 3 over him. You have your opinions, and I respect that as well. The reason these topics are posted is so debates can happen. We certainly won't agree at the end of the day.

I am in NO WAY going by the media, because if I was, I would certainly not say pippen or dirk was better, because I havn't heard that once in the media. I am going by what I would want for my team, who I would want as a basketball player.


When I watch Pippen/Bird play, I am in absolute awe. I have never been in awe watching Lebron.

[Dee4Three]

And for the record, I am not being bias to come to a conclusion. Am I bias towards the Dallas Mavericks, Chicago Bulls, and Boston Celtics? Am I biased towards the Lakers as well because I would take Kobe over him?

Or is it because I really prefer those players over lebron?

[Dee4Three]

My all time starting five would be:

C : Hakeem Olajuwon
PF: Bill Russell
SF: Larry Bird
SG: Michael Jordan
PG: Magic Johnson

I would put Russell there and pair him with Hakeem down low, because Russell didn't need the ball to make a major impact. If I have to sub out for a PF, I place Charles Barkley at PF.