Was Larry Bird Better Than LeBron James?

[Andrew]

In terms of players who were "LeBron before LeBron", I'd throw Grant Hill's name out there. It's a real shame injuries derailed his career, though I was glad to see him stick around and become a solid contributor with a few healthy years. If anyone had said that he'd end up playing 18 years in the league circa 2002, when he wasn't even playing half the season, most of us wouldn't have believed it in a million years.

i meant the people who pretty much throw it out there like "lol bird cant even jump, its not even close" and thats their entire argument.

We see that a lot, especially the "LeBron has already passed Jordan, and it's not even close" rhetoric. Not only would I suggest that if anything it's the other way around, but to immediately dismiss all arguments in favour of a bold declaration that artificially adds weight to a point of view deftly avoids debate, and ultimately proves nothing. You might as well say "X is a better player, because I said so, end of discussion".

As Sauru said though, Dee, you definitely weren't doing that, because you were actually making other arguments to support and explain your point of view.

I'm going to have to come back to the LeBron vs. Bird debate. It's definitely an interesting one.

[NovU]

I consider Dirk actually a worthy challenger to Bird in all seriousness. If you followed NLSC discussions, some probably would know I have Dirk above Kevin Garnett in my all time PF list. But I am not convinced how Pippen can be picked over LBJ in any way possible. You could but you have to come up with some weird nitpicking scenario where Pippen's skillset could shine to a perfection while vice versa for LBJ. It is a stretch I'd say.

[Andrew]

Dirk definitely has better career numbers than perhaps a lot of people realise. I think most people would acknowledge him as a great player, but I'll admit that it took me by surprise when I had a look at his stats a couple of years ago during those discussions, and realised just how good his body of work has been in the NBA.

[Sauru]

There is nothing wrong in saying Bird is better, but players from older eras tend to be overblown by the media, and people buy into it.

i feel this goes both ways. people over hype the players of the past very often to say "their" era of basketball was better and people hype the players of today saying the guys of yesteryear could not compete as they were not as athletic.when comparing players from different era's you have to go just beyond the numbers or at least expand the numbers to be more inclusive. for instance you have to take into account that the east now is not what the east was back when bird played. i mean its a running joke how weak the east has become. now i am not saying this to prove a point that bird was better i am just saying that many more factors go into account beyond sheer numbers. the very rules of the game have changed so much also. the hits bird received (and dished out) would be automatic ejections today and how often did you see bird flop? what if he played today in a league designed for scorers? what is lebron played in a league where you could use your body more to defend players? i cant imagine it being easy to score on lebron with the rules set in the 80's and 90's

imo the bottom line is there is just so much thats different between the 2 era's that picking bird or lebron can be considered correct. they are close enough where imo neither answer is wrong. now in most cases you can easily say x is better than y and the rules and era wont matter. for example lebron is better than dominique. no question at all there. i would also say jordan is better than kobe however that one is much closer than a lebron vs nique. you know thinking about it in the all time best discussions lebron vs bird may be about the closest we can get to a coin flip

[zzcoolj21]

In my opinion both players would do better if they swapped era's. Lebron would be too big, fast, and athletic to really be bothered. Bird would average like 45 in an NBA where you cant hard foul or hand check. Both players born in era's the other one fits in much better. Its tough.

[Andrew]

There is nothing wrong in saying Bird is better, but players from older eras tend to be overblown by the media, and people buy into it.

i feel this goes both ways. people over hype the players of the past very often to say "their" era of basketball was better and people hype the players of today saying the guys of yesteryear could not compete as they were not as athletic.

Absolutely. I mean, if we're talking about media hype, ESPN is always trying to hype up recent achievements as The Greatest Thing Ever Accomplished, and Proof That Legends Have Been Surpassed. As Charles Barkley noted during last season, anyone who didn't immediately accept the notion that the Warriors were the greatest team of all-time who would beat any other great team from history was immediately labelled a hater, regardless of the arguments they brought to the table, and how eloquently and reasonably they stated their case.

[air gordon]

thanks for bringing up the stats, menopauss. i'm surprised Coach Nick only used per game averages instead of the more advanced stats. must be the offseason so we need something to talk about haha

even being a Pippen fan, i could not pick him over the much heralded LJames. Maybe if we are compiling an all time team where "roles" were necessary, i would make an argument to pick Pippen.

i think Pip and LJames share some offensive similarities, specifically looking to set up teammates. i even think they are similar as they don't have a "go-to" move. as greatly skilled and athletically/genetically gifted as LJames is, he still lacks it. and that would be my biggest criticism of him. Game 7 in the finals in crunchtime, LJames would take contested jumpers/fadeaway shots. grow a pair and take it to the hole!

Larry Legend seemed to come back every season with a new move. Jordan learned how to shoot. Bryant had an assortment of moves in his arsenal.

imagine Larry Legend playing in this era of pick and roll.

[Dee4Three]

I disagree with Lebron being so fast and powerful/athletic that he would be better in the 80's/90's. He doesn't embrace contact at all, he would be roughed up and forced to take jump shots (Unless he was on the break). He would be effective, but he would not be BETTER than he is now. This league has been perfect for him since he came in.

Also, another comment states that Lebron is an overrated defender, which is 100% accurate in my opinion. Pippen is the best defensive SF maybe of all time, so Pippen wins on the defensive end. Both of them don't have a go to dribble move to get by someone, but I believe Pippen has a quicker first step and embraces contact better than James. Both are gifted passers.

Again, I take Pippen for those reasons. I respect the views mentioned above, I just don't agree with all of it.

[Jeffx]

There is nothing wrong in saying Bird is better, but players from older eras tend to be overblown by the media, and people buy into it.

i feel this goes both ways. people over hype the players of the past very often to say "their" era of basketball was better and people hype the players of today saying the guys of yesteryear could not compete as they were not as athletic.

Absolutely. I mean, if we're talking about media hype, ESPN is always trying to hype up recent achievements as The Greatest Thing Ever Accomplished, and Proof That Legends Have Been Surpassed. As Charles Barkley noted during last season, anyone who didn't immediately accept the notion that the Warriors were the greatest team of all-time who would beat any other great team from history was immediately labelled a hater, regardless of the arguments they brought to the table, and how eloquently and reasonably they stated their case.

This "latest is greatest" thing drives me nuts, and it's mostly from young cats. It's why I stopped going to the Knicks Facebook fan page. Know your history before you post.

I left when some fool said the 2012-13 Knicks were better than the 70s and 90s Knicks.....that's when I lost it.

[Andrew]

This "latest is greatest" thing drives me nuts, and it's mostly from young cats. It's why I stopped going to the Knicks Facebook fan page. Know your history before you post.

I left when some fool said the 2012-13 Knicks were better than the 70s and 90s Knicks.....that's when I lost it.

The 2013 Knicks better than the team that won two titles, or the one that was a perennial contender and went to a couple of Finals? Jeez...where do you even begin with that? I guess you just don't engage, because there no way it's going to be a healthy and stimulating debate.

It's funny. ESPN Australia has been showing some classic games during the offseason, and I was re-watching Michael Jordan's record-setting 63 point game against the Celtics in the 1986 Playoffs. It was Dick Stockton and Tom Heinsohn on the call, and they were obviously marvelling at some of the things he was doing, and talking about MJ having a bright future. You know what they weren't doing, though? Calling every nifty move he made The Greatest Highlight Ever, or talking about how he'd surpassed Bird, Magic, Dr J, or anyone else. They were enjoying the sport they were watching and history being made, without rushing to pass immediate judgement and re-ranking everything and everyone.

[NovU]

thanks for bringing up the stats, menopauss. i'm surprised Coach Nick only used per game averages instead of the more advanced stats. must be the offseason so we need something to talk about haha

menopauss is the new benji? Formerly known as mandick with a Bieber sig. :p

This is why I like use of stats as menopauss did too. He maintains objectivity while kids complain about their feelings somewhere along the lines of "I feel young ppl r stupid", "era to era sucks", "old/young gen overrated", "did u even watch".

But note that even tho advanced stats heavily favors LBJ, Bird also tops in his era in most of categories with couple comparables which is just about the same with LBJ as his stats are comparable to likes of Curry, CP3, KD. This I think is why two factions exist in Michael Jordan fandom, 1) Jordan is the best because he was head & shoulder above all of his peers at the time being, 2) Jordan's competition lacked talent.

[Andrew]

Not to completely dismiss advanced stats or anything, but are they truly that objective? After all, James Harden was top ten in PER last season, despite being widely regarded as an inefficient player. A couple of seasons ago, Carlos Boozer had some good Defensive Win Shares numbers, which were described as meaningless in his case, because they were an indication of the team's defensive effort, not his. As such, it seems as though there's still some context being applied to advanced stats, a touch of "Actually, that doesn't mean that in this case" that one wouldn't expect in completely objective stats.

[NovU]

I would say it is rather objective than not.

Most of stats are surely backward looking, a mere description of what happened but you can still make a counterfactual prediction about what would have happened.

Good usage of stats and understanding add to the discussion rather well too. For instance, individual drtg is entirely meaningless in individual comparison context but it is ultimately useful when teams figure out how individual impacted the defense on and off the floor. Drtg is still greatly useful in basketball analysis.

[Sauru]

people never actually take into account the era the player played in. for example i have seen people say that players today are better shooters than in the past because they hit more 3's. anyone who has actually paid attention knows that the 3 point shot is used far more now so of course they are hitting more. teams used to be built from the inside out and now they are built with players who just stand at the line and wait to get an open shot. this is not to day that curry is not as good a shooter as reggie miller was its just to say that the game is different now and it must be taken into account.


also this comment made me laugh

while kids complain about their feelings somewhere along the lines of "I feel young ppl r stupid"

[Mandich]

James Harden was top ten in PER last season, despite being widely regarded as an inefficient player

Au contraire, Harden remained a very efficient offensive player (one of the NBA's best), but Howard had yet another drop defensively, and while Harden is an All-NBA caliber player, it's hard to lead a team to success when you play only one side of the floor unless you have great help offensively or defensively.

Ariza and Beverly were only slightly above league average on defense last year, while Howard allowed more points than other centers (0.8% more, but still).

Harden didn't have that much help offensively either. Their 2nd best offensive player was either a washed up Howard, but in reality probably Beasley who played 18 minutes per game and had his best season yet.

A couple of seasons ago, Carlos Boozer had some good Defensive Win Shares numbers,

Like NovU said, Drtg is mainly a team stat.

Look at Iverson, or compare Curry to Paul in that category. Drtg should only be applicable to Defensive Anchors (Duncan, Noah, Deandre etc.) which are mainly centers, and to a handful of perimeter defenders ( Kawhi, Kidd).

Green probably goes into the anchor group, but this season will be a true defensive test for him as he becomes the unanimous defensive leader after the departure of Bogut. Klay could step up too, give the fact he should probably see less touches.

[Dee4Three]

You know what is the most frustrating? Not one person has said anything about what they do ON THE COURT. The differences between repetoires, stuff one can do and the other cant or struggles to. Those are the points I am making. Without bombarding with stats, metrics etc, talk about the repertoire on the court. Like I stated above, I see so many things (In just one game) that Bird/Pippen/Jordan/Drexler/Erving/Kobe etc can do that Lebron can't even get close to doing. Certain changes of direction, certain difficult shots, certain defensive stops. I brought up some stats to show that these guys could hang stat wise, but lets talk about what you see on the court.

And the person comparing Dirk to Bird and saying its realistic makes no sense. Bird was a far superior all around player, they are both good shooters. You are literally saying its a close comparison or a realistic one because they are both shooters. Bird was a far better passer, better offensive and defensive rebounder, better in the paint, and a much better TEAM defender.

When I watch Lebron, I see an athletic forward with shoulders close to the size of Dwight Howard, and a waist the size of JJ Redick, who can run fast/jump higher than a lot of NBA players. Who has a VERY limited offensive repertoire that revolves around "sometimes shooting" and "sometimes bursts" to the hoop where he uses he off arm to push weaker players off and score at the rim. I see someone who attempted to work on his post game (Hakeem took him under his wing) and made no improvements through those teachings, he is NOT a good post player. I see an above average passer. Defensively, I see someone who slacks off (so many plays where he is just laying off his man standing in between the basket and the three point line (Not weak side either most of the time) and getting rebounds that just fall to him. I see a guy who has never shown the fire that the greats have, and someone who throws his teammates/staff under the bus any chance he can. He did great with a CLE team in 06-07 that was not very good, however, lets stop it with the "He takes a bottom feeder to the top". He has made two moves in his career, one with Bosh and Wade and the Heat (Stacked his team), and the other with Irving and Love (stacked his team). Again, he did amazing things with that CLE team, but lets not say he brings bottom feeders to the top when all he did was do it with his first team who did not have a great roster. Could he? its possible, but we don't know.

[NovU]

And the person comparing Dirk to Bird and saying its realistic makes no sense. Bird was a far superior all around player, they are both good shooters. You are literally saying its a close comparison or a realistic one because they are both shooters. Bird was a far better passer, better offensive and defensive rebounder, better in the paint, and a much better TEAM defender..

Not entirely but somewhat yes.

Fronto, I gotta say it makes no sense to hear this from a guy saying Pip > Lbj. LBJ is far superior all around playa.

Now, that said similarity is in their revolutionizing stretch 4 style.



What u are forgetting is that 'completeness' in basketball isnt better than 'uniqueness'. It's the weight of IMPACT that counts.

[Dee4Three]

And the person comparing Dirk to Bird and saying its realistic makes no sense. Bird was a far superior all around player, they are both good shooters. You are literally saying its a close comparison or a realistic one because they are both shooters. Bird was a far better passer, better offensive and defensive rebounder, better in the paint, and a much better TEAM defender..

Not entirely but somewhat yes.

Fronto, I gotta say it makes no sense to hear this from a guy saying Pip > Lbj. LBJ is far superior all around playa.

Now, that said similarity is in their revolutionizing stretch 4 style.



What u are forgetting is that 'completeness' in basketball isnt better than 'uniqueness'. It's the weight of IMPACT that counts.

And Pippen's all around impact was amazing. He wasn't just unique, he could do everything. I didn't forget anything.

And I absolutely deserve to be part of the conversation. I could say the same about anybody doing a realistic comparison of Dirk to Bird.

I stand by everything I said.

[air gordon]

i will say that you are selling LJames a little short there... and i'm not even a fan

but i will agree- when you have someone of similar size and athleticism isolated on LJames (like Iguodala), LJames lack of go to move surfaces.

l bet if Cleveland decides to sit him for half the season, or at least enough for Cleveland to get no lower than the 8th seed.. the Cavs will still be the favorite out of the East

[Mandich]

You know what is the most frustrating? Not one person has said anything about what they do ON THE COURT

Because stats are mainly based on what our brains perceive of the things happening on the floor. That's why eye witness is much more effective. Good point, man.

Lebron can't even get close to doing. Certain changes of direction, certain difficult shots, certain defensive stops

phpBB [video]

Don't be a hata grandpa, Warriors greatest of all time.

[Dee4Three]

You know what is the most frustrating? Not one person has said anything about what they do ON THE COURT

Because stats are mainly based on what our brains perceive of the things happening on the floor. That's why eye witness is much more effective. Good point, man.

Lebron can't even get close to doing. Certain changes of direction, certain difficult shots, certain defensive stops

phpBB [video]

Don't be a hata grandpa, Warriors greatest of all time.

Menopauss, its a great block. I didn't say Lebron didn't do things well. One block that I've seen 100 times doesn't change my perspective on the players being discussed.

I could break out the highlight reels all day. That doesn't change my opinion at all.

[benji]

Funny enough, Bird and LeBron have played the same number of seasons now. So have Grant Hill and Dirk Nowitzki. Probably been mentioned.

I like comparing across eras with per possession because of pace differentials, I normalized these to 75 possessions because that rounds out "closest" to stats resembling a modern player. (And mathematically is as if they were playing ~36 minutes a game.)

ExpW = average lottery team + this player replacing 36 minutes for 82 games. I don't like the calculation for wins completely with this, BUT, it ballparks decently, give it an error margin of 2-4 wins. (OBPM and DBPM don't add up to BPM always because of rounding.)

Player	PP75	RP75	AP75	OBPM	DBPM	PER	BPM	VORP	ExpW
LeBron James (2006-10)	29.3	7.3	7.1	+8.2	+2.4	28.9	+10.7	9.9	59-23
LeBron James (2009-13)	28.9	8.0	7.6	+8.6	+2.7	30.5	+11.3	9.6	58-24
LeBron James (2012-16)	27.9	7.7	7.2	+7.7	+1.9	29.0	+9.6	7.8	53-29
Larry Bird (1984-88)	25.2	9.0	6.2	+6.3	+2.3	26.1	+8.7	8.2	54-28
Dirk Nowitzki (2003-07)	25.9	9.6	3.1	+4.7	+0.8	26.0	+5.4	5.6	47-35
Grant Hill (1996-2000)	22.9	8.4	6.7	+3.3	+2.4	23.2	+5.7	5.6	47-35
Scottie Pippen (1992-96)	21.0	7.9	6.1	+3.7	+3.0	21.4	+6.7	6.5	50-32
Michael Jordan (1987-91)	32.3	6.0	5.8	+9.3	+1.7	31.1	+11.0	10.5	60-22
Michael Jordan (1993-98)	30.5	6.5	4.7	+6.4	+0.7	26.8	+6.4	6.6	52-30

Also, Jordan and Dirk aren't "proper comparisons" because they played different positions, but I included them because Dirk was mentioned as a comparison and because Jordan rates out as the best player other than LeBron in every summary metric available. So Jordan at his peak is a nice "gold standard" player. Other than LeBron, players do not surpass him in wins/plus-minus/etc. style ratings over extended years.

Jordan from 1987-93 dips to 59-23. 1995 (in the case of every other player 1998-99 and 2011-12) screws stuff up unless you account for the possible games played difference. Even then it's his worst non-Wizards/injured year. His per possession win %:

Code: Select all

1984-85   .797
1985-86   .564
1986-87   .839
1987-88   .940
1988-89   .923
1989-90   .889
1990-91   .945
1991-92   .916
1992-93   .896
1994-95   .688
1995-96   .953
1996-97   .916
1997-98   .862
2001-02   .305
2002-03   .432
Career    .870

LeBron:

Code: Select all

2003-04   .334
2004-05   .805
2005-06   .803
2006-07   .830
2007-08   .822
2008-09   .949
2009-10   .916
2010-11   .858
2011-12   .940
2012-13   .952
2013-14   .879
2014-15   .712
2015-16   .841
Career    .858

Bird:

Code: Select all

1979-80   .816
1980-81   .748
1981-82   .878
1982-83   .904
1983-84   .860
1984-85   .883
1985-86   .912
1986-87   .893
1987-88   .864
1988-89   .596
1989-90   .685
1990-91   .688
1991-92   .738
Career    .860

[benji]

Bird Playoff Win %:

Code: Select all

1979-80   .671
1980-81   .873
1981-82   .782
1982-83   .669
1983-84   .895
1984-85   .682
1985-86   .949
1986-87   .646
1987-88   .684
1989-90   .381
1990-91   .375
1991-92   .322
Career    .783

LeBron Playoff Win %

Code: Select all

2005-06   .533
2006-07   .794
2007-08   .748
2008-09   .969
2009-10   .856
2010-11   .807
2011-12   .902
2012-13   .898
2013-14   .887
2014-15   .695
2015-16   .910
Career    .860

Nobody has a playoffs that looks like 2008-09, Jordan's at .961 for 1991 and he did win the title though. Kareem's 1974 is potentially better.

[NovU]

Wtf r u saying, English plz.