Eddie Griffin killed when car met train.

The last conversation McHale had with Griffin (right before he was waived by the team), Griffin told him "I need to go. It's unhealthy for me to be here. I'm in a bad place right here." He wanted to get help. He tried to get help. He just had a lot of problems and he didn't seem to have the ability to stop it. It was an up and down kind of thing, it was't constant, but when he went downhill he got violent and depressed. That was the alcohol in him. Eddie himself was a good guy and he hasn't had any problems with teammates or anything.

Extremely tragic to see a guy lose so young in the game of life. Despite what everyone has said here, he will be missed and hopefully, as John Lucas said, he is free from the torture.

As a local player in the northern jersey area, I played against him regularly the summer before and after school while he was at seton hall, we were freshman the same year.

Did you ever notice his "problems" then? If you did, you should have asked him "wats up?" Apparently saying that cures addictions.

The personal hit I am taking from this aside, your lack of respect for the death of another human being goes beyond reprehensible.

What did he ever do that should make me respect him?

He had his share of problems, not quite like everyone else

Yes, his problems were very much different, as he was given every opportunity and second chance anyone could possibly hope for, and still threw it away.

but who are we to judge another. Very, very, very bad taste.

Does it make your brain sizzle when you say something THAT hypocritical?

Just saw shannon's earlier post.

Yeah, I know, what was her problem? Geez.

He got into a fight with Shine later that year.

I don't know if you can call sucker punching a guy in his street clothes after a game because he didn't pass you the ball enough a fight. I think aggravated assault is more like it.

That team was incredibly talented, it was a top 10 recruiting year for them. Only Barrett stayed all four years.

Eddie Griffin, Andre Barrett AND Ty Shine? I can't wait for the tv anniversary tributes to that team years from now.

Read up, I never said they did anything, I only spoke about the recruiting class rankings of that year. When I met him he was fresh out of high school, and there werent many problems to speak of. He was always kind of a malcontent, but nothing like where it would go later. The fight with shine had more to do with the basketball game, I'll just leave it at that. Some one with your obvious expertise concerning the matters of information gathering should know that theres always more than what they publish.

There was nothing hypocritical about my post, I made no judgements on you personally, I merely said that what you said was in poor taste. There is no reason to be so disrespectful. The man was a talented basketball player who made some bad decisions, paid for them, as was still trying to get shit together for himself. Any person that dies so young is a tragedy.

Lose the e-God complex, that routine is pretty old now.

Lucas said he thought it was a suicide. i agree with him.

Does that mean you respect Vick over Hussein because Vick hurt dogs and not people? As far as I know, Hussein is a human being. A "worthless" human that did many horrible things, but a human nonetheless.

I don't like either of the two, but I certainly wouldn't disrespect anyone's death. I wouldn't do it, but if one day you choose to step on someone's grave, I'll respect your decision, but I certainly won't support it.

Ummm...

Saddam Hussein deserves no respect. He, Hitler, Cho, people like that. Child molesterors, serial killers, etc.

Michael Vick ran a dog fighting ring. Dog fighting is a common thing where he is from, and if you grow up in that environment you become immune to what a normal person would feel. If someone from a nice wealthy neighbourhood in a big city went out to where Vick is from and seen these dog fights, they would of been shocked. Now compare that with a kid who has grown up around it - he would think nothing of it and it would be a pretty normal part of his life.

Michael Vick grew up around that sort of stuff, so he wouldn't of thought it was as big a deal as it is.

However, there are things people know are incredibly wrong, no matter where they're from. Things like murder, rape, etc.

Saddam Hussein killed mountains of people. He deserves no respect in death. Hitler deserves no respect for his actions that lead to the live burning of people, amongst other things. Cho deserves no respect in death for killing 32 defenceless students in cold blood.

These guys deserve no respect. What they did was evil. They each did some of the worst things you can possibly do as a human being.

If I saw the grave of any of these guys, I would step on it, spit on it, etc. and it wouldn't worry me. These guys deserve nothing at all. Not even respect in death.

Their actions lead to the deaths of millions of innocent people, why the fuck would you still respect someone that did that?

I know that if someone killed my entire family, I would kill him myself. I would give him 0 respect, and rightfully so.

Michael Vick ran a god damn dogfighting ring. If he was to die tommorow, I would still have respect for him in death.

I don't see how you can possibly hold Michael Vick in the same regard as Saddam Hussein.

Michael Vick ran a dog fighting ring. Dog fighting is a common thing where he is from, and if you grow up in that environment you become immune to what a normal person would feel. If someone from a nice wealthy neighbourhood in a big city went out to where Vick is from and seen these dog fights, they would of been shocked. Now compare that with a kid who has grown up around it - he would think nothing of it and it would be a pretty normal part of his life.

Michael Vick grew up around that sort of stuff, so he wouldn't of thought it was as big a deal as it is.

However, there are things people know are incredibly wrong, no matter where they're from. Things like murder, rape, etc.

Saddam Hussein killed mountains of people. He deserves no respect in death. Hitler deserves no respect for his actions that lead to the live burning of people, amongst other things. Cho deserves no respect in death for killing 32 defenceless students in cold blood.

I absolutely do not want to give off the impression that I have any sympathy for, or imply justification of, the actions of Hitler, Hussein, etc., because I absolutely don't, but you're going down a slippery logical slope here. Though Vick would have (allegedly) grown up feeling dog fighting is a fairly normal activity, the same can be applied to Hitler and Hussein. They both grew up in situations that made racial/cultural hatred seem fairly normal. Having read "Mein Kampf" and done a fair bit of research on Hitler, I can say without a doubt that he felt he was doing the right thing in exterminating Jews, homosexuals, etc. Absolutely everything and everyone is a product of their environment/upbringing, and to suggest that Michael Vick gets a free pass for that, or that it is somehow justification of his actions, is intellectually dishonest.

ya got a good point there

I'm still trying to understand why this thread went from Eddie Griffin's death (RIP) to Saddam Hussein/Hilter's death...

I'm still trying to understand why this thread went from Eddie Griffin's death (RIP) to Saddam Hussein/Hilter's death...

It's just the way things go. One person says one thing, it leads someone else to respond, and pretty soon we're talking about the origins of the universe. Always happens that way.

Saddam Hussein deserves no respect. He, Hitler, Cho, people like that. Child molesterors, serial killers, etc.

Who are you arguing with? No one here suggested any of these people would deserve respect. They were simply questioning your flawed rationale on why Griffin does.

Michael Vick ran a dog fighting ring. Dog fighting is a common thing where he is from, and if you grow up in that environment you become immune to what a normal person would feel.

Firstly, the fact that he would be used to it makes the death of dozens of innocent animals okay? Secondly, He didn't just make dogs fight, he drowned and hanged dogs who didn't meet their standards for fighting.

If someone from a nice wealthy neighbourhood in a big city went out to where Vick is from and seen these dog fights, they would of been shocked. Now compare that with a kid who has grown up around it - he would think nothing of it and it would be a pretty normal part of his life.

Do you seriously fucking believe that Vick's first words were "put twenty on Rex?" This is not something that has been a part of his life for 20 years. Now I'm not saying that violence and criminal activity hasn't been a big part of his life, because it clearly has, but you can't forgive the horrible things he has done, no matter how he grew up.

However, there are things people know are incredibly wrong, no matter where they're from. Things like murder, rape, etc.

But not murder of an animal? Or making money off it? Or lying to your employers?

Saddam Hussein killed mountains of pe...[more redundant shit everyone already agrees with]

These guys deserve no respect. [even more redundant shit everyone still agrees with]s of innocent people, why the fuck would you still respect someone that did that?

We don't respect that. No one arguing with you suggested we did.

I know that if someone killed my entire family, I would kill him myself. I would give him 0 respect, and rightfully so.

Wow, you better be careful, saying such controversial and taboo ideas. The freshness of your oddball opinions are shaking us to our core.

Michael Vick ran a god damn dogfighting ring. If he was to die tommorow, I would still have respect for him in death.

Then you have fucked up standards miss.

I don't see how you can possibly hold Michael Vick in the same regard as Saddam Hussein.

Well for one thing, both were responsible for mass death. Vick just got caught and brought to justice a lot faster.

Now I'll try to bring this back to St. Eddie Griffin. Griffin put himself in situations where he could have easily killed, or badly injured people through his recklessness. We can only guess at the amount of times he drove drunk, and anyone of those times he could have killed someone on the road.

When he shot at his ex girlfriend, he could have easily killed her. Even in the resulting beating, he could have at least left her with long term debilitating injuries.

When he punched out Ty Shine, he could have hit him in a way to do permanent brain damage.

The guy declined to enter rehab, continually put himself in dangerous situations, and made other people pay for his mistakes. And yes, occasionally he could block shots. So what.

I'm not happy he died. I don't think he deserved to die. But I don't think you can make the argument that he was a victim that deserves our respect.

But I don't think you can make the argument that he was a victim that deserves our respect.

Maybe not, but he certainly was a sick, unstable man that deserved to receive adequate treatment one way or another, just like anyone who's affected by this type of mental issues.

I'm still trying to understand why this thread went from Eddie Griffin's death (RIP) to Saddam Hussein/Hilter's death...

The best threads are allowed to organically evolve and flow with the discussion. Not being forced to adhere to some rigid topic. The latter is how discussion dies.

Now I'll try to bring this back to St. Eddie Griffin. Griffin put himself in situations where he could have easily killed, or badly injured people through his recklessness.We can only guess at the amount of times he drove drunk, and anyone of those times he could have killed someone on the road.

True, but for the most part when he drank he was alone (his home or hotel room). He probably did drink and drive, which is something I find awful, but God forgives and so can we. Plenty of people drink and drive, were talking millions, so if you want to condemn him for that than condemn them all.

When he shot at his ex girlfriend, he could have easily killed her. Even in the resulting beating, he could have at least left her with long term debilitating injuries.

Another dark chapter in his life.

When he punched out Ty Shine, he could have hit him in a way to do permanent brain damage.

He got in a fight. It's not good, but saying he doesn't deserve your respect because of that seems a little farfetched.

The guy declined to enter rehab,

WRONG. He entered and successfully completed rehab. He took pills that would help stop him drink. He tried to get a support system around him. You can't say he didn't try to stop. You can't say the ones around him didn't try, either.

continually put himself in dangerous situations, and made other people pay for his mistakes.

I think he was suffering more from his mistakes than anyone else. You could tell he wasn't enjoying life, even on the basketball court. He did a lot of bad things but deep down inside he was a good person and you could tell at times. It's when the bad times hit that he did some dark things, mostly due to the chemicals in his body. You can't overlook that but you certainly can understand that this man was consumed by darkness and even though he tried to escape he couldn't. It's a sad and tragic story - that's what it is.

And yes, occasionally he could block shots. So what.

It's what we know him for, but ultimately not very important.

I'm not happy he died. I don't think he deserved to die. But I don't think you can make the argument that he was a victim that deserves our respect.

Then me and you have different outlooks on life. It happens and I understand. He made a lot of bad choices but he tried to overcome them. He tried to right his wrongs. I don't know why he couldn't but it is what it is...

I absolutely do not want to give off the impression that I have any sympathy for, or imply justification of, the actions of Hitler, Hussein, etc., because I absolutely don't, but you're going down a slippery logical slope here. Though Vick would have (allegedly) grown up feeling dog fighting is a fairly normal activity, the same can be applied to Hitler and Hussein. They both grew up in situations that made racial/cultural hatred seem fairly normal. Having read "Mein Kampf" and done a fair bit of research on Hitler, I can say without a doubt that he felt he was doing the right thing in exterminating Jews, homosexuals, etc. Absolutely everything and everyone is a product of their environment/upbringing, and to suggest that Michael Vick gets a free pass for that, or that it is somehow justification of his actions, is intellectually dishonest.

I nominate that for post of the year. Though it has little to do with the thread topic, it's a great read

No one, me included, is sitting here implying that eddie was a saint. My main beef was the dismissal of his death, as if it was as commonplace as flushing a toilet or something. No decent human being deserves that.

Again, not condoning, but anyone here over the age of 20 on this forum, and 85 percent of those who arent, knows someone who is in, or is close to, the same situation as Griffin was as concerning to his drinking/drug use. This stuff happens to "Joe Nameless" everyday. Does the fact that he was a professional athlete, semi-high profile person make it any more or less tragic? If anything, what makes it more tragic is that he repeatedly tried to get help, which would put him in a higher ranking then "that guy" you know who shoulda/woulda/coulda but never did.

I absolutely do not want to give off the impression that I have any sympathy for, or imply justification of, the actions of Hitler, Hussein, etc., because I absolutely don't, but you're going down a slippery logical slope here. Though Vick would have (allegedly) grown up feeling dog fighting is a fairly normal activity, the same can be applied to Hitler and Hussein. They both grew up in situations that made racial/cultural hatred seem fairly normal. Having read "Mein Kampf" and done a fair bit of research on Hitler, I can say without a doubt that he felt he was doing the right thing in exterminating Jews, homosexuals, etc. Absolutely everything and everyone is a product of their environment/upbringing, and to suggest that Michael Vick gets a free pass for that, or that it is somehow justification of his actions, is intellectually dishonest.

Even though I was wrong, I wanna say thankyou for putting together a mature argument, rather than implying I'm a girl or just saying that everything Eddie Griffin did means he does not deserve any rspect and that the world is a better place without him.

But what I was getting at is that I don't think anyone is bought up in an environment where there is no emotional attachment (sorry if I'm not making sense, I'm finding it hard to explain) to murder of a human being. Killing a dog, making dogs fight, etc. is pretty standard where Vick was bought up. While Hitler may have thought he was doing the world a favor by getting rid of these people, surely there was something in his head saying "You're murdering these people". Hitler, Saddam, Cho, etc. They were all evil, plain and simple.

My whole rambling about Hitler/Saddam was in response to JT saying that he would hold the same respect, in death, of 2 guys - one ran a dog fighting ring, the other was a mass murderer. I don't see how they can be held on the same level.

Sure, killing a mass amount of dogs is a very bad thing to do. I just don't think you can hold Saddam Hussein in the same regard, then add Eddie Griffin to the mix.

Thanks for educating me on Hitler though and presenting a well thought out argument. NLSC needs more of you.

Who are you arguing with? No one here suggested any of these people would deserve respect. They were simply questioning your flawed rationale on why Griffin does.

JT.

Firstly, the fact that he would be used to it makes the death of dozens of innocent animals okay? Secondly, He didn't just make dogs fight, he drowned and hanged dogs who didn't meet their standards for fighting.

Read above. I never said it was ok, I just said you can't hold it in the same regard as what the other guys did.

Do you seriously fucking believe that Vick's first words were "put twenty on Rex?" This is not something that has been a part of his life for 20 years. Now I'm not saying that violence and criminal activity hasn't been a big part of his life, because it clearly has, but you can't forgive the horrible things he has done, no matter how he grew up.

20 years? 20 years?

Mike Vick is what, 27 years old. Even if he somehow left his home when he was 7 to join the Falcons, you think he never goes back there? Spends time there?

Well if he ran a dog fighting ring there, he obviously di spend time where that sorta thing is very common.

But not murder of an animal? Or making money off it? Or lying to your employers?

Those are all wrong, but if you hold them in the same regard as rape and murder, "Then you have fucked up standards miss".

Please cut the miss/her bullshit. Nobodies laughing.

We don't respect that. No one arguing with you suggested we did.

Again, I was speaking to JT.

Wow, you better be careful, saying such controversial and taboo ideas. The freshness of your oddball opinions are shaking us to our core.

Once again, I was adding to my opinion on what JT said. If you decided to read out my post a little more carefully, maybe you would have picked that up.

Well for one thing, both were responsible for mass death. Vick just got caught and brought to justice a lot faster.

Again, Vick killed dogs.

Don't get me wrong, killing/fighting digs IS wrong. It's just nowhere near the level of the mass murder of defenceless people.

Now I'll try to bring this back to St. Eddie Griffin. Griffin put himself in situations where he could have easily killed, or badly injured people through his recklessness. We can only guess at the amount of times he drove drunk, and anyone of those times he could have killed someone on the road.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda...

When he shot at his ex girlfriend, he could have easily killed her. Even in the resulting beating, he could have at least left her with long term debilitating injuries.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda...

When he punched out Ty Shine, he could have hit him in a way to do permanent brain damage.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda...

I'm not happy he died. I don't think he deserved to die. But I don't think you can make the argument that he was a victim that deserves our respect.

What did he do that makes him so low that the world is better off without him?

He assualted his girlfriend, shot at her, etc. He punched a teammate. He crashed into a car while watching porn, drunk.

Let me explain this to you: The media only shows what people do wrong.

You don't know what he went through in life, you don't know what good he bought with him.

I don't know how you can hold a guy like Eddie Griffin so low, that even when he loses his life at just 25 you don't give a shit - citing he was an asshole who was payed un-earned millions.

You don't even notice the fact that he had many inside problems, was an alcoholic and, as Riot said, he tried to get help. He tried to become better. It just didn't happen, and I think it's sad that this guys life had to end like this while people like you take a shit on everything Eddie was, without taking full account of his situation.

I absolutely do not want to give off the impression that I have any sympathy for, or imply justification of, the actions of Hitler, Hussein, etc., because I absolutely don't, but you're going down a slippery logical slope here. Though Vick would have (allegedly) grown up feeling dog fighting is a fairly normal activity, the same can be applied to Hitler and Hussein. They both grew up in situations that made racial/cultural hatred seem fairly normal. Having read "Mein Kampf" and done a fair bit of research on Hitler, I can say without a doubt that he felt he was doing the right thing in exterminating Jews, homosexuals, etc. Absolutely everything and everyone is a product of their environment/upbringing, and to suggest that Michael Vick gets a free pass for that, or that it is somehow justification of his actions, is intellectually dishonest.

Even though I was wrong, I wanna say thankyou for putting together a mature argument, rather than implying I'm a girl or just saying that everything Eddie Griffin did means he does not deserve any rspect and that the world is a better place without him.

But what I was getting at is that I don't think anyone is bought up in an environment where there is no emotional attachment (sorry if I'm not making sense, I'm finding it hard to explain) to murder of a human being. Killing a dog, making dogs fight, etc. is pretty standard where Vick was bought up. While Hitler may have thought he was doing the world a favor by getting rid of these people, surely there was something in his head saying "You're murdering these people". Hitler, Saddam, Cho, etc. They were all evil, plain and simple.

My whole rambling about Hitler/Saddam was in response to JT saying that he would hold the same respect, in death, of 2 guys - one ran a dog fighting ring, the other was a mass murderer. I don't see how they can be held on the same level.

Sure, killing a mass amount of dogs is a very bad thing to do. I just don't think you can hold Saddam Hussein in the same regard, then add Eddie Griffin to the mix.

Thanks for educating me on Hitler though and presenting a well thought out argument. NLSC needs more of you.

Thank you for your kind words. I wholeheartedly agree that genocide/mass murder is not at all on the same level as dog fighting, it is much worse. However, I doubt if Hitler (not sure about Hussein, don't know as much about him) felt any remorse about what he was doing. I think he felt with certainty that he was ridding the world of the most vile and evil people imaginable. In fact, he hardly considered them human. I'll bet Hitler would have objected more to the mistreatment of dogs than the mistreatment of Jews.

Anyway, I don't really want to discuss Hitler. I just wanted to make the point that people don't get a free pass because they were brought up a certain way. I mean, a lot of people nowadays are brought to hate gay people, yet that in no way excuses hate crimes committed by these people. And I agree with you, Eddie Griffin's death is tragic. He was not a waste of a person. The world is not better off without him, though it wouldn't be better off if he were still alive, either. I'm sure his mother is in quite a bit of pain right now, and my sympathies and condolences go out to Eddie's family and friends.

Dang this thread has really moved over-Eddie Griffin-Mike Vick-Saddam Hussein-Hitler- whats next?

the quote by quote post wars in this thread is getting out of hand

The circumstances surrounding Eddie Griffin's death are tragic and disheartening. That said, Griffin did very little in life to earn the respect of those around him. Despite this, I think it is only natural to have empathy for him and what he had to go through. Some people have deep rooted personal problems which are never released. Eddie Griffin was likely one of these people.

How many of you haven't gone out and binge drank after a shitty day or event in your life? Hell, I did it last night. I had my heartbroken by someone, so I took to drinking all I could in as short of a span as I could. Luckily for me they ran out of alcohol at the party I was at, or I could have ended up on the floor. The point of this little anecdote is this: Good people will naturally do some bad things. Eddie Griffin took to drinking and it made him violent and apparently suicidal. It amazes me that some people here are so presumptuous to demonize Eddie for trying to escape the problems in his life. We all have our faults, and Eddie tried to solve his the wrong way.

To my original point, Eddie Griffin hasn't earned our respect. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be empathetic towards the situation. I'm amazed that some people are happy that he died. That's so repulsive; it makes me wonder just how many personal problems it takes to derive pleasure from someone's death. If you're going to feel like that, keep it to yourself please.

Axel, well said.

If you're going to feel like that, keep it to yourself please.

So you're free to say how you feel about Eddie Griffin, or others, as long as it's the same as Axel feels?

I don't think anyone in this thread has said they're happy or are deriving pleasure from the death of Eddie Griffin. I don't even think anyone has made the case that Eddie Griffin deserved to die. People are instantly assuming that because Kevin doesn't think Griffin is a victim who deserves respect that he thinks Griffin deserved to die.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't be empathetic towards the situation.

I don't see any reason I should be empathetic. Why should I be required to feel pity for Eddie Griffin? Or anyone for that matter?

I don't have any problem with people posting "RIP" or "goodbye my sweet angel", nor do I have a problem with people posting "he had it coming" or "who cares?" Maybe people should try to be empathetic towards those who aren't empathetic towards Eddie Griffin.

If you are empathetic towards Eddie Griffin, and wish he rest in peace, keep it to yourself please.

See how that sounds?

I also love how people keep saying "some people" and "you all" when it's just Kevin bringing a dissenting point of view on Eddie Griffin. I get the feeling a lot of people are just seeing what they want to see in order to attack a strawman.

Last edited by benji on Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

Who are you arguing with? No one here suggested any of these people would deserve respect. They were simply questioning your flawed rationale on why Griffin does.

JT.

We don't respect that. No one arguing with you suggested we did.

Again, I was speaking to JT.

Who are you arguing with? No one here suggested any of these people would deserve respect. They were simply questioning your flawed rationale on why Griffin does.

Once again, I was adding to my opinion on what JT said. If you decided to read out my post a little more carefully, maybe you would have picked that up.

Apparently, everyone but Shannon thinks I'm a nobody...

Anyway, I guess you're right on the account Vick and Hussein/Hitler shouldn't be placed on the level, although both did harm living things, just that one harmed way more.

I'm not happy he died. I don't think he deserved to die.

But you said:

The world is better off without him

If the world will be a better place without a person, then that person certainly deserves to die for the betterment of the world. I think I smell contradiction. Unless no one wants to improve the world, then I guess it's ok to let someone live whose death will improve the world.
Anyway..

Nice discussion and posts here and there.

I agree with some of iKe7in's posts (and do find some humour in it). Do I really have to give a fuck about the death of someone that I don't personally know, who wasted his life? I think we all agree about him having a wasted life judging by the farewell posts in this thread. Granted that he was really trying hard to sort things out but the fact is his life was wasted whether it was his fault by his own decision or not because of his problems that controlled him. His death certainly won't do any help in the cause of turning his life around.

Imo, none of us here are really entitled to say that what person A said is disrespectful to his death or that person B should realize that Eddie did really deserve it coming. Because as said before, we here in the forums only know Griffin through second-hand information. As far as we know the second-hand info that we encounter is either truth or bullshite and we can't really distinguish which is which unless we know Eddie personally. (Heck, even first-hand information sometimes contains bullshite.)

What I mean by the world is better off without him is that at least now, he can't hurt anybody else. He managed to kill himself in a way that only harmed himself, but could have killed others. So by 'the world is better off without him,' I mean that its one less violent, drunk driver to worry about, who at some point was destined to take the life of an innocent person.

I don't believe that he deserved to die, but I believe he deserved some kind of punishment for his actions, ie. prison, rehab for a long period of time, or indefinite suspension/ban from the NBA to at least curb his source of excess drinking money.

But I can see the confusion, I didn't really explain it well before.

benji,

I don't see any reason I should be empathetic. Why should I be required to feel pity for Eddie Griffin? Or anyone for that matter?

Its the humane thing to do.

I don't believe that he deserved to die, but I believe he deserved some kind of punishment for his actions, ie. prison, rehab for a long period of time, or indefinite suspension/ban from the NBA to at least curb his source of excess drinking money.

I agree in some way, but in another way, if he signed the contract for x amount, he IS entitled to it. The NBA is just as bad as NFL or IBF as concerns to monitoring the outside activities of its players. There need to be stricter guidelines enforced to prevent things like this, all too often, we have to have this debate over a person after they are dead. Len Bias - although in another talent class altogether, comes to mind when you think of things like this where we watched a player kill himself with poor life decisions.

All in all, this was someone's son, someone's brother, cousin, uncle, friend, and teammate. No matter what you may think of him, or anyone for that matter, I don't believe anyone is totally worthless, and any death, especially one so young, should be considered a tragedy. While I didnt know him well enough to call him a friend, or even an acquaintance, I will say that he was nicer than you might think, and I for one will give him that post-mortem respect and dignity as a matter of course.