I am going out on a limb...(T-Wolves off-season related)

i guess you're right. oh well. I still find it somewhat curious that EVERYONE left simultaneously though. and i still do not believe that shaq was treated right his last year as a laker after all he had done for that franchise.

You will be soon.

if by soon you mean never, okay.

I'll tell you who I am scared for though.... blondes all over la. odom is bound to pull a kwabe sooner or later.

Like plenty of people have said, he could have had this from the Lakers. And, he could have made more by making it known that he was ready to bargain with the highest bidder this summer. He was a free agent this summer, and could have been again next summer. Somebody would have taken a run at him one of those times for much more money than he's getting from Miami. (This summer, Cleveland might have flirted long enough to drive his price into the stratosphere.)

The point that the Lakers would have paid him this is proof that he's not just about the money. He left to leave the toxic culture behind. He was the best player in the league, essentially, and they were selling him and Phil Jackson down the river to please Kobe Bryant.

Instead, he only bargained with one team, and he set up his contract so they can pay other players too, rather than just funnel as much as possible to him. He's considered a bargain at this price. He deserves credit for being on the short end of that stick in the name of winning.

Last edited by magius on Sat May 20, 2006 9:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

"and i still do not believe that shaq was treated right his last year as a laker after all he had done for that franchise."

Interesting comment, I remember you standing up for the owners when we had a debate over their importance in the league.

well you(?) were saying that all owners are jerks or something or the other. Obviously I don't believe that is the case, and I clarified my mistake. I do believe that in this instance buss disrespected shaq though. I still respect what owners do, but I'm allowed to disagree with some of their decisions aren't I?

No, I was saying that owners shouldn't elevate themselves onto the players level. The players are what the fans want to see, and the owners dont show one bit of loyalty to their players (except in extremely rare situations, like reggie miller and karl malone), so fans shouldn't respect them either.

sorry i couldn't find the thread, i just remember, um, mark cuban.

I guess now that I think about it I could foreseeably lose respect for certain owners for not showing loyalty to players. But I do still respect buss for what he has done in the past, I just feel he did and made the wrong decisions when it comes to shaq. I guess I'm being a little hypocritical, huh? I'll get back to you if I ever sort it out. I guess it comes down to the fact that I do believe owners should be respected, but I lost respect for buss because of the shaq incidident. Not that I don't respect him, just less. does that make sense?

Absolutely. I lost respect for him too becuase (even though im not a lakers fan) he put his own ego ahead of the laker fans by trading shaq for odom, who hasnt been bad, but he isnt even top 5 for his position now, where as shaq is without question a top 5 centre of all time.

There are some owners i do respect. I respect Auerabch in boston, reinsdorf in chicago, buss in la, and to a lesser extent cuban. the rest, i cant say i respect one bit.

Not to be a bitch and all, but could someone remind me who got Malone & Payton to LA? Just to refresh my memory.

Both of them got each other there. They talked about it at the all star break. Once payton signed, malone did as well.

They could've decided to go elsewhere, right?

get it through your thick skull, Riot. dreaming up a trade scenario is not a rumor. when it rains in minnesota you probably think God is trying to drown Garnett

Do you go around trying to flame me? I did not dream up this scenario, it is something that has been going around a lot here. It is something that McHale and Taylor both have publicly said they were after. Sixers management says they are open to dealing anyone and many sources, not just Wolves, have said that Sixers will deal Iverson this summer. I'm giving my opinion and my prediction that he will land on the Timberwolves. I am by no means making it up. All this stuff I have heard from legit sources with the Timberwolves and with the Knicks.

So please, shut the fuck up.

i wasn't trying...

you overreacting, tight assed, paranoid, KG closet homosexual, and T'wolves homer... i wasn't referring to the Sixers

They could've decided to go elsewhere, right?

Of course they could have, but you asked who brought them to LA, and I told you.

My point was they could've gone elsewhere. Let's not kid ourselves, Shaq got them to LA. Just the way he got Payton to Miami. The point of me saying they could've gone elsewhere is that they indeed could've gone elsewhere, but chose to come to LA for a reason.

i wasn't trying...

you overreacting, tight assed, paranoid, KG closet homosexual, and T'wolves homer... i wasn't referring to the Sixers

I don't even know what you are saying anymore.

In terms of the Iverson trade, both KG and Iverson are 30+, what happens in 3-4 years? They're have nothing. If they don't win anything, then it was just a waste.

Garnett wants veterans and the team wants to make a run or two before Garnett gets too old.

I still find it somewhat curious that EVERYONE left simultaneously though

Only 2 players actually can be considered as one that leaved the team. The rest were traded. The GP trade is still looking like a steal even though the lakers lost banks.

and i still do not believe that shaq was treated right his last year as a laker after all he had done for that franchise.

To each his own i guess. I honestly cannot see anything that Dr. Buss did in Shaq's last year that can warrant an opinion that Shaq was not treated right.

C'mon now. Dr. Buss is the classiest team owner in the whole league ever.

Absolutely. I lost respect for him too becuase (even though im not a lakers fan) he put his own ego ahead of the laker fans by trading shaq for odom, who hasnt been bad, but he isnt even top 5 for his position now, where as shaq is without question a top 5 centre of all time.

Matthew, Dr Buss did not have a choice. Shaq wanted a warm weather city. He did not want to be traded to the clips. The only options were Miami and Dallas. Dallas did not want to trade Dirk, Steve Nash was already a free agent and Antawn Jamison was already traded to washington at that time.

The best the lakers could've gotten was Jermaine O'neal+Tinsley but Shaq nixed the deal as Indiana aint a warm weather city.

With that said, Mitch is still an idiot for not insisting that Dorell Wright be added to the deal, i really believe the kid will be a star someday.


Anyway, why did GP and Malone sign with LA? Shaq? Sure. How about a championship ring?
You guys can give Shaq all the credit in the world but if Dr Buss did not assemble a dynasty, then Malone and GP would not even be thinking of taking a paycut.

GP also signed with Miami because he wanted another chance at a championship ring and play a vital role to the team's success at the same time.

Anyway, why did GP and Malone sign with LA? Shaq? Sure.

Atleast you can give me that much.

How about a championship ring?

Why not sign with San Antonio in that case?

You guys can give Shaq all the credit in the world but if Dr Buss did not assemble a dynasty

Shaq is out there playing, not Dr. Buss.

GP also signed with Miami because he wanted another chance at a championship ring and play a vital role to the team's success at the same time.

He's a bench player. He could be a bench player with Detroit, San Antonio, Dallas, hell even Phoenix. He just out of the blue picked Miami? Yeah, ok, sure.

Why not sign with San Antonio in that case?

San Antonio was never interested in him. They already have Parker, NVE and Beno Udrih.
For some reason Pop wanted NVE than GP.

Shaq is out there playing, not Dr. Buss.

Sure he is. But i was talking about who assembled the roster. Not who's playing. Oh wait, my mistake, Jerry west assembled the roster not Dr Buss.

He's a bench player. He could be a bench player with Detroit, San Antonio, Dallas, hell even Phoenix. He just out of the blue picked Miami? Yeah, ok, sure.

Here's what happened.

The spurs and the pistons were not interested in him as they already had their PG rotation set.
Pistons already had Billups-Arroyo-Hunter.

I dont remember reading anything about Dallas showing interest but even if they did.
Terry - Harris - Armstrong. Surely GP would not be happy being a third string PG right?

Yes, Phoenix were very very interested in GP but GP did not think that highly of Phoenix because of Amare's injury and the pace of Phoenix's game. Payton is too old to play phoenix suns basketball.

That left Miami as the only logical decision for him if he wanted to sign with a contender and play a vital role aka backup PG aka second string PG at the same time.

You're honestly trying to convince me that the respective GM's of those teams would not take Payton over Arroyo/Hunter & Harris/Armstrong?

I think it's time for bed for me. That one had me dazed.

Look at Arroyo's contract. You honestly think the Joe Dumars the smart businessman that he is would pay Arroyo 5million a year to be a third string PG?

Yes, GM's would take Devin Harris over GP anyday. Last time i checked, Devin Harris was killing the spurs.

That would leave GP as a third string PG. You're honestly convinced that he would choose a team with their PG rotation already set over a contender that badly needed a backup PG?

I'm glad Snaq was traded. 20 million per season, for the next 5 seasons in exchange for 60 games at about 19/9? No thanks.

Actually, Snaq wanted 30 million a year from the lakers and did not want to play for less as a laker.

30 million for 19/9? How in the hell can the lakers sign a player that can replace Kobe again? And people even have the nerve to call out Dr. Buss

Only 2 players actually can be considered as one that leaved the team. The rest were traded. The GP trade is still looking like a steal even though the lakers lost banks.

by left I mean left regardless of how or why. that is why i said i found it curious; not many teams are dismantled so completely in such short a time.

To each his own i guess. I honestly cannot see anything that Dr. Buss did in Shaq's last year that can warrant an opinion that Shaq was not treated right.

C'mon now. Dr. Buss is the classiest team owner in the whole league ever.

buss did nothing to qualm shaq's concerns regarding who's team the lakers were. When kobe toyed with the clippers (of all teams...) publicly, everyone knew the laker's concern was kobe first, shaq second. Shaq is the reason that team was a dynasty. period. To disregard a great in favor of a young gun is understandable, but the way in which buss did it imo was disrespectful. He treated shaq with nonchalance, almost as if he were unneccessary. again, regarding shaq's salary:

Like plenty of people have said, he could have had this from the Lakers. And, he could have made more by making it known that he was ready to bargain with the highest bidder this summer. He was a free agent this summer, and could have been again next summer. Somebody would have taken a run at him one of those times for much more money than he's getting from Miami. (This summer, Cleveland might have flirted long enough to drive his price into the stratosphere.)

The point that the Lakers would have paid him this is proof that he's not just about the money. He left to leave the toxic culture behind. He was the best player in the league, essentially, and they were selling him and Phil Jackson down the river to please Kobe Bryant.

Instead, he only bargained with one team, and he set up his contract so they can pay other players too, rather than just funnel as much as possible to him. He's considered a bargain at this price. He deserves credit for being on the short end of that stick in the name of winning.

Anyway, why did GP and Malone sign with LA? Shaq? Sure. How about a championship ring?
You guys can give Shaq all the credit in the world but if Dr Buss did not assemble a dynasty, then Malone and GP would not even be thinking of taking a paycut.

GP also signed with Miami because he wanted another chance at a championship ring and play a vital role to the team's success at the same time.

at that time shaq would instantly make any team he joined a contender. gp and malone signed with la for the chance to play with a contender. shaq is the reason the lakers were a contender (and, as you said, west deserves the credit for him being there, not buss). since you are so fond of believing everything the media says, surely as a laker fan the fact that shaq very actively pursued them (malone and gp) during that period hasn't escaped your memory. gp and malone were practically salivating at the thought of playing with shaq. hell even mj said he would have played a LOT longer if he had someone like shaq.

Actually, Snaq wanted 30 million a year from the lakers and did not want to play for less as a laker.

30 million for 19/9? How in the hell can the lakers sign a player that can replace Kobe again? And people even have the nerve to call out Dr. Buss

simple. trade kobe for tmac or trade kobe to the clips. shaq, even now, is easily one of the two best centres in the game (unless you count duncan, in which case he is AT LEAST top 3). imo choosing kobe set the lakers up for long term mediocrity. la will always be around the 8 seed, which means they won't find the 2nd star they need through the draft, and I highly doubt their ability to attract free agents.....I don't believe la can attract free agents of any value because 1. there are no bigs of any consequence available in the foreseaable future (via free agency), and 2. guards will be drawn to markets with a big not a guard, and 3. kobe is not exactly someone other players drool over playing with.

shaq, in my mind, single-handedly attracts teammates much in the same way mj did, td does, and lebron seems to be doing. imo if la had kept shaq they would be a contender right now, rather than a bad 76ers of old clone for the next decade.

buss did nothing to qualm shaq's concerns regarding who's team the lakers were. When kobe toyed with the clippers (of all teams...) publicly, everyone knew the laker's concern was kobe first, shaq second. Shaq is the reason that team was a dynasty. period. To disregard a great in favor of a young gun is understandable, but the way in which buss did it imo was disrespectful. He treated shaq with nonchalance, almost as if he were unneccessary.

I agree Buss should have attempted to resolve it, but why was shaq so upset that the franchise wanted to keep Kobe? It would be like the lakers putting their priorities straight with Magic and Kareem, with Kobe being Magic and Shaq being Kareem (i'm not comparing the careers of those 4 great players, but the passing of the torch is somewhat similar). I think the turning point with shaq and buss was in that preseason game, when shaq went down the court yelling at buss saying "pay me motherfucker". Now im not against swearing, but what generation is buss from? he's old school, no question. and in that generation, you never disrespect your boss like that, and you definately dont do it in public.

I'm not sold that Jackson and Shaq were told to pack their bags becuase of kobe. Kobe's a smart guy, i think he is a deeper thinker than what people give him credit for, which is why he doesnt explain himself to the media until the criticism reaches a point. The situation with shaq leaving, shaq demanded the contract extension and at the time, i dont totally blame buss for not giving shaq a raise (as oneal wanted) considering his age and decline). What i do blame him is if he traded shaq simply becuase he publicly "humiliated" him at that pre season game.

at that time shaq would instantly make any team he joined a contender.

Not any team. You saw how ineffective the lakers were at getting him the ball at certain times. Shaq isnt a messiah. He wouldn't have turned the knicks or raptors into a contender.

gp and malone signed with la for the chance to play with a contender. shaq is the reason the lakers were a contender (and, as you said, west deserves the credit for him being there, not buss). since you are so fond of believing everything the media says, surely as a laker fan the fact that shaq very actively pursued them (malone and gp) during that period hasn't escaped your memory. gp and malone were practically salivating at the thought of playing with shaq. hell even mj said he would have played a LOT longer if he had someone like shaq.

Kobe too was a reason the lakers were a contender. I think you have it very wrong when it comes to shaq and kobes importance for the lakers sucess. I have it 45 % shaq, 35% kobe, 10 % role players, 10% phil jackson.

simple. trade kobe for tmac or trade kobe to the clips. shaq, even now, is easily one of the two best centres in the game (unless you count duncan, in which case he is AT LEAST top 3).

Lol tracey mcgrady? he's a glorified loser, and i actually like the way he plays at times. Why would you trade kobe to please shaq, if you are criticising the laker management for doing the same thing with kobe (trading shaq, firing jackson just to please kobe).

). imo choosing kobe set the lakers up for long term mediocrity. la will always be around the 8 seed, which means they won't find the 2nd star they need through the draft, and I highly doubt their ability to attract free agents

The lakers have a nucleas of players begining to realise their potenital. Kwame, Smush, Mihm and Odom (especially odom) all have the talent to be a really good supporting cast and from their playoffs and end of season run, they are begining to do just that. I'm not convinced this team cant make the conference finals next season with the suns and mavericks as their top competition.

I don't believe la can attract free agents of any value because 1. there are no bigs of any consequence available in the foreseaable future (via free agency), and 2. guards will be drawn to markets with a big not a guard, and 3. kobe is not exactly someone other players drool over playing with.

How do you know that though? Look at the impact kobe has had with chris mihm, odom, kwame brown, smush parker. he has helped their game just as much as shaq is helping wade, haslem and co in miami.

shaq, in my mind, single-handedly attracts teammates much in the same way mj did, td does, and lebron seems to be doing.

The way kobe does too.

imo if la had kept shaq they would be a contender right now, rather than a bad 76ers of old clone for the next decade.

You don't know this. The lakers made huge strides over last year this season and playoffs, and considering the players they have still havent even come close to their potential, this laker team could very easily be back in the finals 3 years from now. just as easily as them falling apart at least.

shaq, in my mind, single-handedly attracts teammates much in the same way mj did, td does, and lebron seems to be doing.

The way kobe does too.

Exactly. Who says GP and Malone came to LA because of Shaq? Perhaps Kobe recruited them . But even if he didn't and let's say someone like Devean George did, does that make George the reason for Malone and GP coming to LA? No, it doesn't. They came to LA to be starters on a contending team and Shaq/Kobe combo was the reasons for it. Would they came to LA if Kobe wasn't there? Probably not, because that team wouldn't be a heavy contender. Would GP go to Miami if Wade wasn't there? Probably not, because that wouldn't be a contending team. You see my point? You can make Shaq to look as important as you want, but you can't deny that Kobe and Wade weren't an integral part of Malone's and Payton's decision to come to LA and Miami.