Greatest Player

by **Sauru** on Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:33 am

in the end, i will still have to always list jordan, bird, and magic as the top 3 ever. i would put jordan first, then imo the other 2 is just a matter of personal preference.

by **dsigns** on Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:16 am

NJ²² wrote:
Amphatoast wrote:hmm COOLMAC the 2nd? 42posts in 1day

thats nothing, I had like 110 posts on day 1.

edit : Greatest Player - Wilt, Greatest Winner - MJ

Wouldnt Larry Bird be the biggest winner?

by **cyanide** on Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:02 am

dsigns wrote:
NJ²² wrote:edit : Greatest Player - Wilt, Greatest Winner - MJ

Wouldnt Larry Bird be the biggest winner?

Why Larry Bird? Because of the Celtics win-loss record when he was playing?

by **Sauru** on Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:33 am

larry bird clearly is not the biggest winner, that honor easily goes to russell. i dont think anyone could argue that.

by **Jeffx** on Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:18 pm

We're going through this again? Sheesh!

As I've stated many times before, Wilt is my all-time greatest. I saw the man play, and he was larger than life. He & Russell took the NBA to another level. I can't put Jordan above them. What really annoys me are these young cats who diss Wilt and think the NBA begins & ends with Jordan.

1a) Wilt
1b) Russell
2) Jordan
3) Oscar
4) Magic
5) Kareem
6) Elgin Baylor
7) Larry Legend
8) Jerry West
9) Hakeem Olajuwon
10) Julius Erving
11) Bob Cousy
12) Walt Frazier

Bluesky · by **Andrew** on Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:20 pm

I understand and respect your point of view Jeffx, but I hope you don't include me in that group. My argument is not that Wilt was a bad player, that would be a ludicrous claim. It's just that it seems there's no criticising him while all sorts of double standards push down players from the Jordan/Magic/Bird era. But I admit a lot of people do call Jordan the greatest by simply regurgitating media hype. I like to think I'm not one of those folks though.

by **Jeffx** on Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:27 pm

I would never do that, Andrew. I've always respected your knowledge of the game.

by **J@3** on Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:36 pm

I don't think you can call Robertson the best player in history. I've already outlined what I believe to be acceptable criteria for bestowing such an honour upon a player

That's your criteria though, I'm assuming not everyone has the exact same one.

Bluesky · by **Andrew** on Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:44 pm

Indeed it is, though I'm not exactly suggesting anything radical. I'm sure a lot of people use similar criteria, though everyone will likely place emphasis on different factors.

Jeffx wrote: would never do that, Andrew. I've always respected your knowledge of the game.

Thanks Jeffx, I'm quite honoured to hear you say that (well, read it anyway

). I didn't think you were implying I was one of those guys, but Jordan fans sometimes do get lumped together as being rather ignorant so I thought I'd ask; I try to be as objective as possible when this topic is brought up.

I didn't mean any ill will by it. (Y)

by **J@3** on Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:02 am

I think being an MJ fan it's more than possible to put forth a good argument as to why he could be the best ever.

If you were a Chris Webber fan, however...

by **beau_boy04** on Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:51 am

http://www.nba.com/history/records/allt ... areer.html

If you really really wanna separate Michael Jordan from Wilt Chamberlain - then talk about the PLAYOFF!!!! They always say the best players really shine in the playoff. If Wilt is/was so known for his scoring why isn't he in the Top 10 in scoring average? but then if you look at Michael Jordan he always managed to score over 30 per game.

I have never seem Wilt Chamberlain played but I saw MJ played in his prime back in 1990 and on. I think what really makes MJ the best player is his competitive level, on how he managed to defeat the Bad Boys Pistions, Ewing and New York, and many other adversaties (did I spell that right?) lol and well maybe there are many doubts of him being the Greatest Player of all time because I think Wilt, Oscar, Magic, Bird and the others guy deserved some credit as well but there's not doubt that Michael Jordan is/was "The Best Player in the Playoff" because once he got it down and defeated the Lakers to win his first championship he NEVER LOST AGAIN to anybody.

ps. don't give me that bullshit about his Wizard's stint and how he didn't make the playoff.

Thanks ya.

Bluesky · by **Andrew** on Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:25 am

Bill Russell certainly had a bit of success in the Playoffs to say the least, MJ's not alone in that category; far from it. But that's what seperates Jordan, Magic, Bird and Russell from the others in my mind. They were awesome from start to finish, their brilliance shone on opening night, during the season, during the All-Star game, during the playoffs, during the NBA Finals year in and year out. No, they didn't have fantastic games every single game of the year. But no matter what time of the year it was, they brought their A game and played with the competitive drive that made them so successful. And they succeeded.

by **AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy** on Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:29 am

MJ was definitely more accomplished and a winner than Wilt.

But as Wilt himself said to MJ once: "When you were playing, the changed the rules to help you.When I was playing, the changed the rules to slow me down."

Bluesky · by **Andrew** on Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:35 am

Someone from the Hall of Fame committee once commented on Wilt's claim, calling it bogus, alluding to the fact that many factors contributed to the evolution of the rules during the NBA's first couple of decades - they also widened the lane when Mikan was playing and even experimented with baskets 12 feet high. I really want to find that quote, it's in one of my old basketball magazines. I'll have to go through them again and try to find it.

by **dsigns** on Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:02 am

Jordan got help from the refs...everyone knows that. Ask Byron Russell and the Utah Jazz.

I have a friend who is a huge Jordan fan and was blinded while jordan was playing to all the things the refs let go while he was playing. Years later we went back and watched some of those old games and he finally saw what Ive been telling him about.

by **beau_boy04** on Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:45 am

I copying pasting this from another message board. Check it out and let me know how accurate this information is.

"I don't think Michael Jordan plays selfish at all or was ever selfish. Magic Johnson and Larry Bird had the luxury of being drafted by championship caliber teams. Look at the lakers starting five.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Jamaal Wilkes
Magic Johnson
Norm Nixon
Mitch Kupchak

Larry Bird's Team

Larry Bird
Robert Parish
Cedric Maxwell
Kevin McHale
Tiny Archibald

Just look at their stats. These guys were amazing.
The LA Lakers went 57-25 that season and won the nba championship. The celtics went 63-19 that season and went to the finals to lose to the lakers. I dont even know how did Magic and Larry end up on the 2 best teams in the NBA. When Michael Jordan came into the NBA, he did not have their luck. He ended up on an expansion team which was not going anywhere and had to be built from the ground up. Even when Pippen came 3 years later, he was a work in progress. Michael Jordan never had great teams like these guys had. Jordan worked in a system. The bulls were able to surround him with Scottie Pippen and a bunch of role players and they were able to win. There were plenty of times in his career where he showed his unselfishness and passed the ball when he had to. Also unlike Larry Bird and Magic Johnson, Jordan was also more of a complete player all around on offense and on defense. Jordan was one of the best overall defenders of all time. He is 4th all time leader in steals, and for his "position" one of the best shot blockers. Michael Jordan was named to the NBA All-Denfensive First Team nine times. The only other player to be named to the NBA All-Denfensive First Team nine times is Gary Payton."

by **Sauru** on Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:11 am

beau_boy04 wrote:I copying pasting this from another message board. Check it out and let me know how accurate this information is.

"I don't think Michael Jordan plays selfish at all or was ever selfish. Magic Johnson and Larry Bird had the luxury of being drafted by championship caliber teams. Look at the lakers starting five.

maybe i am wrong here, but i am pretty damn sure the celtics were one of the worst teams in the league the year before larry came. maybe even the worst, i forget. no time to google i gotta head home.

by **AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy** on Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:41 am

It's all a matter of proper timing, not just good or bad teams. Think Spurs. Had DR not gotten injured, they wouldn't suck so bad so as to get the No 1 pick and subsequently draft TD. The team was the same the following year, with only one rookie addition...

Bluesky · by **Andrew** on Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:17 pm

dsigns wrote:Jordan got help from the refs...everyone knows that. Ask Byron Russell and the Utah Jazz.

I have a friend who is a huge Jordan fan and was blinded while jordan was playing to all the things the refs let go while he was playing. Years later we went back and watched some of those old games and he finally saw what Ive been telling him about.

The notion that Michael Jordan was successful only because of the referres is complete and utter nonsense. As I said before, he did indeed get the benefit of calls during his career. But so did the NBA's other top stars, even to this day!

You mention the blind devotion to Michael Jordan and his fans having tunnel vision. The criticisms of Michael Jordan have become equally ignorant and based upon common misconceptions. The "referee factor" is a greatly exaggerated knock against Jordan, one that conveniently ignores several facts and figures. It's yet another double standard that ignores the treatment other star players received from the referees throughout the years.

by **Jeffx** on Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:49 pm

Sauru wrote:
beau_boy04 wrote:I copying pasting this from another message board. Check it out and let me know how accurate this information is.

"I don't think Michael Jordan plays selfish at all or was ever selfish. Magic Johnson and Larry Bird had the luxury of being drafted by championship caliber teams. Look at the lakers starting five.

maybe i am wrong here, but i am pretty damn sure the celtics were one of the worst teams in the league the year before larry came. maybe even the worst, i forget. no time to google i gotta head home.

You're 100% correct. I forgot the record, but the Celts were horrible in the '78-'79 season. But Larry Legend changed all that. He led Boston to the conference finals against Philly in his rookie season. They lost 4-1 due to their lack of a big man(Dave Cowens was only 6'8" or 6'9"). The following year('80-'81) they added the Chief, drafted Kevin McHale, and the rest was history.

by **beau_boy04** on Sun May 08, 2005 9:55 pm

Interesting article. I know some of you might have seem it already. Michael Jordan is definitive The Greatest!

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketba ... team_x.htm

by **beau_boy04** on Sun May 08, 2005 9:59 pm

And you and I and so is the rest of us know it! Michael Jordan would have won two more titles if he didn't retire the first time, well maybe not just 2 maybe more :shock:

Bluesky · by **Andrew** on Mon May 09, 2005 5:26 pm

Interesting, but while it supports my view I don't think it's any more definitive than any other means of determining the greatest that has been suggested. It's an interesting way of representing how much a player has accomplished though.

I'd like to think that the Bulls could have won eight or more in a row had MJ not retired twice in the 90s, but in all fairness it remains "highly likely", not guaranteed. The 1993 unit would have needed a little retooling to remain atop the league.

by **Bang** on Wed May 11, 2005 1:07 pm

Wilt Chamberlain had 2 championships. And since this isn't tennis, 2 championships despite having 50 ppg seasons is not very impressive. It clearly shows he wasn't a team player. Yes, he lead in assists at one point, but if the plays run through you enough, you will get a lot of assists. 2 CHAMPIONSHIPS...only 2, do I need to emphasize it any more?
Not to mention he couldn't win with Jerry West AND Elgin Baylor? Jerry West an Wilt won one later, but I doubt you can blame ELGIN BAYLOR -_-;;. Shouldn't that be the greatest team in history? Wilt, the logo and elgin baylor? how is it that they lose?
I'd say Bill Russell with his 11 championships is better than Wilt Chamberlain but he doesn't have enough accolades I guess.
Another thing is Wilt Chamberlain was so unique nobody saw anything like him. I don't know how well he'd do in the current league actually in the current league he'd be another Shaq, but in Jordan era where there were so many good big men, I don't know. In Jordan's era there was plenty of great big men: Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, Kemp, Malone, Robinson, Charles Barkley and many more. Yet it wasn't the age of big men, it was the age of Jordan, he was so good that he was able to go where no guard would even dream of. The NBA is, was, will be a big man's game, but Jordan was able to dominate in a time where big men were supposed to rule. I think that makes him the best of all time. Bill Russell with his 11 championships should be 2nd. I don't see why Wilt Chamberlain would be above Bill Russell unless it was a 1-1 league, which it is not.

by **beau_boy04** on Wed May 11, 2005 3:46 pm

Championships is a great way to measure someone's greatness. As stated above, Will wasn't a great team player and didn't instill his teammates to do their best, etc etc. I'm starting to even consider putting Bill Russell ahead of Wilt Chamberlain because one had 11 and the other one had 2. I'd say both were equally defensively maybe Russell edging Wilt, but offensively Wilt will overpower Russell's defensive game. Overall, Russell was a better player than Wilt.

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