When will the 76ers win? (Answer: December 3rd)

[Ese]

THE STREAK HAZ BEEN BROKEN!!1!11

[NovU]

GRATS! Now the real fun begins.

Can you imagine what monster MCW will become in couple years when he develops his offense? As long as he doesn't suffer from growth tardiness like Ricky Rubio, he's certainly going to be a beast, possibly 20-8-6-2 guy. Then there is KJ McDaniels who is showing Jimmy Butler/Kawhi Leonard like talent. He may not become as good but he'll be solid, no doubt there. Now you just need either Embiid or Noel to become a star. Then Philadelphia will make some serious noise.

[Andrew]

THE STREAK HAZ BEEN BROKEN!!1!11
[ Image ]

The Timberwolves are the ones to put the one in 1-17. Brock Lesnar put the one in 21-1. Lesnar attended the University of Minnesota, and currently resides in the state.

We should've seen it coming.

[ThePointForward]

Damn, sixers just robbed me of 50 VC in the 2K15 mobile app.

[Spree#8]

What an ugly game. Somehow Minnesota was even more awful than the Sixers. Anyway, the how and why don't really matter. The streak is over - that's another futility record avoided. Kind of strange how the Sixers always seem to win when they really need to in order to avoid making history.

This means Philly now has a better record in their last 10 games than Detroit and Charlotte. I wonder how Thad feels about his new team, by the way.

MCW seems to be confirming that the fears caused by his terrible play in the first few games back were probably unfounded. He'll be fine as long as the coach stops setting him up to fail. Consider this:

MCW with Wroten: 14.3 ppg 5.9 rpg 4.5 apg 1.0 spg 34%fg 24%3pt 63%ft
MCW without Wroten: 20.7 ppg 10.0 rpg 10.7 apg 1.3 spg 42%fg 22%3pt 67%ft

Granted, he's only played 3 games without Wroten as of now, but the trend is drastic. And it works the other way as well:

Wroten with MCW: 14.4 ppg 2.5 rpg 5.9 apg 1.3 spg 39%fg 16%3pt 62%ft
Wroten without MCW: 21.9 ppg 4.3 rpg 6.7 apg 2.7 spg 44%fg 36%3pt 64%ft

Even from just watching the games, it's painfully obvious that these two do nothing but get in each other's way when on the court together. Wroten has to come off the bench when he returns. Otherwise, might as well start counting to 26 consecutive Ls right then, because when these two aren't producing this team is fucked. And, playing extended minutes together, they clearly can't.

[Stress Fracture]

Wow, 16% from three for Wroten when he shares the floor with MCW. What a horrible percentage.

[NovU]

Expect 76ers kids to play better now that they got losing streak off the chest. Perhaps tide has turned in Philly.

phpBB [video]

[Phil89]

They're on fire now. 2 wins in 3 games.

MCW with 20 points, 8 rebounds, 15 assists, 3 steals and 2 blocks vs the Pistons

[NovU]

Good news and Bad news.

FuuuuuUuuu. Bad news is that just when I dropped Covington in NLSC league, he got extremely hot from very next game. Fuq dis. Happened with a lot of players I got involved with this season.

Good news is that they are playing as I expected. They're playing better ball now that losing streak out of their mind and with MCW healthy. Their focus is better with burden off their shoulder.

Also this MCW is capable of monstrous games and give team great chance to win(just as he can shoot/TO team out of game at times).

[Spree#8]

Yeah, MCW continues to nearly average a triple-double when not playing with Wroten. Pretty beastly numbers and looking great out there. He can't keep playing 45+ minutes per game, though. Shved or Wroten needs to heal quickly.

Covington is really helping. It's good to have a capable shooter on the floor, makes MCW's job look less hopeless.

The Pistons scored a grand total of 1 point in overtime. Also...

Not what Philadelphia is doing right now, which is embarrassing. I don't care, [commissioner] Adam Silver can say there's no tanking or what's going on -- if you're putting that roster on the floor, you're doing everything you can possibly do to try to lose.

So, you have just lost to a team that "does everything they can possibly do to try to lose" and now have all of 1 more win that them in the season. Time for you to shut up, you fat fuck.

[NovU]

So what do you think ideal minute allocation should be for MCW and Wroten when he comes back from injury? I agree they should not see floor time together but Wroten playing strictly a MCW back up won't do anything positive for the team imo. While MCW averages 30-35 mpg, Wroten only gets about 13 to 18 minutes theoretically strictly as a MCW back up(ie. Farmar's job in CP3's team). And it's very hard to find a player in this league that you could call impact guy in that minute range and this will more than likely leave Wroten unhappy and counter productive. It's reasonable to assume that Brett will somehow try desperately to make it work so that they could share the floor together. I don't know if that's going to be a good idea but still, Wroten probably deserves his minutes as a 3rd year guy who somewhat had early season highlights of his own.

At the end of the day I think minute allocation will be very tricky for the 76ers team. I don't know if Wroten belongs to 76ers future plan unless he can learn to play alongside MCW(or vice versa). At the same time, you don't want to hinder young players' development by stuck playing bad basketball so that Wroten could get his touches. Is he/it investment worthy?

[Andrew]

Not what Philadelphia is doing right now, which is embarrassing. I don't care, [commissioner] Adam Silver can say there's no tanking or what's going on -- if you're putting that roster on the floor, you're doing everything you can possibly do to try to lose.

So, you have just lost to a team that "does everything they can possibly do to try to lose" and now have all of 1 more win that them in the season. Time for you to shut up, you fat fuck.

Agreed, sour grapes and sore loser talk from SVG there.

The Sixers have bottomed out to start over from scratch, but it's not like the players that are there aren't trying to win. Even during the 0-17 start, they were coming very close to winning on occasion, a couple of times against vastly superior opponents. The players they do have are trying to compete, trying to win, it's just too early on in the rebuilding process for them to have a lot of success.

[Spree#8]

While MCW averages 30-35 mpg, Wroten only gets about 13 to 18 minutes theoretically strictly as a MCW back up

Unless he can develop a catch-and-shoot three (doubtful), those 13-18 minutes is probably it for him, maybe except for some brief stretches that require as many offensive weapons on the floor as possible. Looking like about 20 minutes per game for Tony.

MCW's play after Wroten went down (19.6/9.0/12.2 in last 5 games) as well as Wroten playing much better before Carter-Williams returned clearly shows that playing together significantly hurts them both (and the team's offense). I guess Brown could try sending Covington on the floor in a lineup that features both MCW and Wroten to improve spacing and see if it helps any. If not, or not much, there's likely no hope for that pair ever working well. In order to mix up the offense, there have been a few attempts to utilize MCW in the post against Jennings in the Pistons game, but that won't work either with no shooting around him.

The coach doesn't seem ready to give up on playing them together yet. Wroten might be back as soon as the next game, which is on Wednesday. We'll see if it marks the beginning of another long losing streak. With this team simply lacking talent, the odds in almost every game are already stacked heavily against us. We don't need to worsen them further by putting terrible lineups out there, such as any lineup including both MCW and Wroten. There's no development or growth to be had from taking a 20/9/12 guy and a 22/4/7 guy and turning them into two 14/4/5 guys on horrific percentages. It's nothing but fuel for the tank and it drives their potential trade value down as well.

[NovU]

I recently read that the 76ers tried actually hard to trade MCW during offseason. At that time, I thought it was just a baseless rumour.

If that's true that was some seriously fucked up shit. Sure you gotta play 'pick n choose' game wisely but... it goes to show management's mentality without saying much. At some point, you need to open up your wallet and show commitment to the players and respect to the fans.

[JAWSFreelao]

I think Wroten would be a great prize for the Knicks in exchange for JR Smith. I know I'm dropping a bomb here, but I think it could work. Doesn't Philly need to get over the minimum salary cap amount still anyway? And NYK loses a veteran scorer on a far too lucrative contract, but gets a budding flower who (just from watching him) could possibly be a Jamal Crawford-esque player, if he ever develops a three point stroke.

[Mandich]

The rookie dropping bullshit as usual.

What exactly would Wrotens role be? They already have a good defender who can't shoot in Shumpert. And Shumpert is probably a slightly better player at the moment.

could possibly be a Jamal Crawford-esque player, if he ever develops a three point stroke.

Dwight Howard could be Ray Allen if he develops a 3pt game. Stupid comparison nevertheless, they don't even play similar.

#lol calling B/R experts.

[JAWSFreelao]

Wroten's role would be a microwave scorer off the bench to help negate the loss of JR. And dude stop being so critical and rude about it lol, it's an opinion. If you don't like it just keep scrolling.

[Spree#8]

I recently read that the 76ers tried actually hard to trade MCW during offseason. At that time, I thought it was just a baseless rumour.

It's still largely baseless. There weren't even any specific trade rumors involving him. Some people thought that the Elfrid Payton pick meant MCW's gone, but about 3 minutes later it turned out he was picked for Orlando.

I wouldn't put it past Hinkie to try to trade MCW, but I've seen the Dion Waiters to Sixers rumor too many times to believe any random crap the media spits out.

What exactly would Wrotens role be? They already have a good defender who can't shoot

Wroten isn't a good defender, even if his steals per game say otherwise.

I think Wroten would be a great prize for the Knicks in exchange for JR Smith. [...] Doesn't Philly need to get over the minimum salary cap amount still anyway?

Hinkie enjoys taking on bad, short-term contracts with picks as the reward, but he isn't one to take on bad, long-term contracts. J.R. Smith would also take some minutes from McDaniels. This is a no-go.

As for the minimum salary, they don't need to do anything. The only penalty for being below the salary floor is having to distribute the amount needed to meet the floor among the players on your roster.


By the way, a quick look at the standings reveals that the Pistons (3-18) and Knicks (4-18) seem really committed to giving Philly (2-18) a good run for their ping pong balls. Where's the national media crying about them being embarrassing for the league? If SOS is to be believed, both Detroit and New York have played one of the easiest schedules in the league so far. Sixers, for all their awful results, still have played the 11th hardest schedule in the league as of now. When easier times come for Philly (they already kind of have with Minnesota and Detroit within a week) and NY and Detroit start playing tougher opponents regularly, don't be shocked to see Philadelphia actually win more than those teams... unless Carter-Williams plays with Wroten for 30 minutes a night.

EDIT:

Some interesting numbers about MCW's recent play, his dynamic with Covington and a little about rim protection from Noel: http://www.nba.com/sixers/gallery/fun-s ... cw-edition

Over Michael Carter-Williams' last five games, he's averaging 19.6 PPG, 12.2 APG, and 9.0 RPG. He's the first to do that since Magic Johnson in 1991 and the first Sixer since Wilt Chamberlain in 1968.

[JAWSFreelao]

Well said, Spree. I would suggest moving Smith to SF if this trade went through, but unfortunately the Sixers already have a massive clog at the SF position.

[Andrew]

By the way, a quick look at the standings reveals that the Pistons (3-18) and Knicks (4-18) seem really committed to giving Philly (2-18) a good run for their ping pong balls. Where's the national media crying about them being embarrassing for the league? If SOS is to be believed, both Detroit and New York have played one of the easiest schedules in the league so far. Sixers, for all their awful results, still have played the 11th hardest schedule in the league as of now. When easier times come for Philly (they already kind of have with Minnesota and Detroit within a week) and NY and Detroit start playing tougher opponents regularly, don't be shocked to see Philadelphia actually win more than those teams... unless Carter-Williams plays with Wroten for 30 minutes a night.

I agree that tanking talk is overblown, and the issue is not as problematic as it's made out to be as long as the players aren't intentionally losing games on the court. Since they're still trying to compete to the best of their ability, I don't think that's the case.

I think the difference is that the Sixers are bottoming out and starting over. I believe that's a perfect legitimate approach to rebuilding, but it does differ from what the Pistons and Knicks are doing. The Pistons have made some significant moves in free agency in the past couple of years, while the Knicks do have players who are individually talented, and should probably be playing a lot better than they are. The Sixers are enduring a tough season by design - which once again, I think is fine as part of a long term rebuilding plan, just difficult to watch for the fans - whereas the Pistons and Knicks are just plain sucking.

[Spree#8]

I think the difference is that the Sixers are bottoming out and starting over. I believe that's a perfect legitimate approach to rebuilding, but it does differ from what the Pistons and Knicks are doing. The Pistons have made some significant moves in free agency in the past couple of years, while the Knicks do have players who are individually talented, and should probably be playing a lot better than they are. The Sixers are enduring a tough season by design - which once again, I think is fine as part of a long term rebuilding plan, just difficult to watch for the fans - whereas the Pistons and Knicks are just plain sucking.

I realize that. The question is, how and why is it better to be terrible with a team of overpaid, mediocre veterans (and possibly long-term, big money sinked into them) than to be terrible with a team of young, talented guys with potential to be someone in the league one day and are given an opportunity to get consistent minutes, relative freedom on the court and get a ton of game experience early on in their careers?

Now, those young, talented guys are largely surrounded by undrafted D-League guys, but they're trying their hardest every game because they know it's likely the only chance they'll ever get to find a career in the NBA. Some of them might even turn out to be very interesting finds unnoticed by any other team (Covington!). In the meantime, they're getting another high pick to add to their developing core and most likely one more in the late teens (Miami's).

I mean, just look at these Knicks. They're paying roughly 2.3 times as much for their roster as the Sixers are (and that's not counting the luxury tax) to be one game ahead of them in the standings and have seemingly no picks until, like, 2050. They're about to have a lot of cap space, but if their potential targets see no real future for this team, cap space alone won't attract them - just ask the Lakers. If anything, I'd say it's more embarrassing than what Philly is "achieving". People hate to feel outsmarted - that's probably the problem.

[Andrew]

One is seen as gaming the system, and being the opposite of competitive. The other is seen as trying, and simply making a mess of things.

They're different situations, so the critcisms are likewise going to be different. The Knicks aren't doing what the Sixers are doing, so they're not going to receive the same criticism. Instead, you can fault them for overpaying players and making the wrong moves, as well as the players and coaching staff for their shortcomings. Same goes for the Pistons.

I don't think it's a matter of the Knicks' or Pistons' situations being any better. One could argue that the Sixers have the better plan, not throwing good money after bad, starting over from scratch instead of being content with mediocrity or underachievement. And I agree, it's more embarrassing to actually have some talent on the roster, and be little better than the team that's blown everything up and enduring some tough times with an eye to building for the future.

However, the criticism is different, because teams making a mess of things is just the way it goes sometimes. Some moves are going to backfire, some teams that look alright on paper won't gel on the court, players get injured or decline quicker than expected...you name it. Failure is a part of sport, and a part of life. The Sixers on the other hand are perceived to be gaming a system that a lot of people feel is broken and discourages competitiveness, so they receive more scorn. Not that the Knicks don't receive scorn for their shortcomings, but like I said, it's a case of "Well, they're just sucking. The Sixers aren't even trying!" I don't think that's a fair or accurate assessment, but that's the way it's seen.

I also think you're right. The Sixers have taken a fairly extreme but logically sound approach to starting over, with a willingness to endure very difficult times with the hope that everything will pay off in the long run if they continue to make smart moves. It's a strategy that has its own risks, but it's also smarter than teams that throw a lot of money at a star and a few above average players, in the hopes that they'll at least make a few Playoff appearances.

It does take advantage of the system, but it's a system that's in place to help distribute talent to teams that are in need of it. It's not as though other teams don't utilise advantages afforded to them, either. As you said, people don't like to feel outsmarted, so there will be cries of foul. However, as long as teams are trying to win games - and the Sixers are actually trying, as much as they can - then tanking is not a big issue. As long as the lottery system ensures that the worst record doesn't guarantee the top pick, then tanking isn't a sure-fire strategy to get what you really want.

At the end of the day, it comes back to distrust of the NBA and the lottery system. It's not that the Sixers are really doing anything wrong, it's that people don't like the system. Teams like the Knicks and Pistons that are performing poorly...well, that's just on them and their mistakes, which everyone is prone to at some point. The Sixers can be held up as an example of why the system they don't like is broken, and shamed for it, unfair as that may be.

[NovU]

Basketball is entertainment to the fans and people took great joy in talking about 76ers' woes just as I did with Lakers' woes with my buddies this season. Kinda took me off from Heat basketball which has been just as woeful, so whatever. Knicks and Pistons will have their hard time and already had their hard time in days, dealing with media's scrutiny.




On subject of KJ McDaniels, I hear he's to become a RFA after this season. If then, he's certainly not a minimum contract now. I think he'll get 3 to 4 millions a season if not more, perhaps for 3 years. It'd be crazy to lose him. At the very least, his youth makes him a great trade chip.

[JAWSFreelao]

Definitely. That kid is one ehell of an asset, and he's only going to grow from here. It was wise of him to get that one year instead of being underpaid for 3-4.
Too bad the Thunder didn't draft him.. He could've been their starting shooting guard.
And the problem with the Knicks and Pistons are they're supposed to be playing better than they are. Leading to upset "fans" who are angry because their teams are playing like shit.
The 76ers and the Lakers however, as dreadful to watch as they may be, are fun basketball to watch. Why? Because they're so bad you can't help but root for them. Like Kobe/Swaggy P on the Lakers. They're amusing on the court. The Sixers' KJ McDaniels with his ridiculous highlight plays. The team may not be very talented, but at least they go HAM.

[Spree#8]

At the end of the day, it comes back to distrust of the NBA and the lottery system. It's not that the Sixers are really doing anything wrong, it's that people don't like the system.

Perhaps. But a problem with disliking the current system because of tanking is that if you greatly limit the draft's impact on team building, you're putting non-destination teams at an even greater disadvantage than they already are, as it's pretty much all they have with the current rules of free agency and trades. It's something people are seemingly blind to. This article explains it better than I ever could.

[...]
The first rule that greatly impacts the usefulness of free agency and cap space in attracing a superstar is restricted free agency, giving teams with players coming off of rookie contracts the option of matching an offer sheet. This obviously greatly hinders (to practically nothing) the chances that a young superstar coming off of a rookie contract will change teams via free agency.
[...]
Bird rights and the soft tax also greatly hinders the usefulness of using free agency to acquire top end talent, as retaining teams can disregard their cap position to retain their own free agent, while also offering them more years and better raises.
[...]
The biggest rule, however, is perhaps the maximum salary restrictions. By limiting how much a player can earn on the open market, the league effectively limits how much impact free agency can have. Teams that have diligently managed their cap space now cannot have the edge they would have had if players can be paid fair market value. Without the climate, the chances to contend, or a superstar to join, a team like the Sixers has very little going for it that would make it a destination.
[...]
The NBA has spent the last 20 years limiting the inherent risks of the draft, both by restricting how much of a salary the incoming rookies can negotiate and by preventing GM's from drafting kids with no post-high school experience, and thus with lots of noise in their scouting report. They then limit the ability for struggling teams to use free agency as a legitimate means to attract franchise building blocks. And, oh by the way, throw in a restricted free agency that virtually guarantees that a superstar coming off of his rookie contract will re-sign with the team that drafted him during for his second contract, giving the original team very high odds of retaining a superstar during the first 9 years of his career, and most of their physical prime.

And the NBA wonders why teams without franchise players are lining up to draft near the top of the draft?
[...]

That's probably why the lottery reform got rejected, at least for now.

Basketball is entertainment to the fans and people took great joy in talking about 76ers' woes just as I did with Lakers' woes with my buddies this season. Kinda took me off from Heat basketball which has been just as woeful, so whatever. Knicks and Pistons will have their hard time and already had their hard time in days, dealing with media's scrutiny.

I'm not talking about laughing at Philly for being terrible, as I do it sometimes as well and so do many Sixers fans. It's the butthurt comments such as "they're a disgrace to the league!", "penalize them for losing on purpose!" and other stupid bullshit, along with the extensive, negative media attention that they're getting ever since the tank got going, to the degree I really can't recall any tanking team getting before. It was especially funny last season as they were treated like some worst team ever caliber even though they weren't even the worst team in the league that season (and might not be this season either, when it's all said and done).

On subject of KJ McDaniels, I hear he's to become a RFA after this season. If then, he's certainly not a minimum contract now. I think he'll get 3 to 4 millions a season if not more, perhaps for 3 years. It'd be crazy to lose him. At the very least, his youth makes him a great trade chip.

Yeah, he wouldn't sign the "Hinkie special", so he's on a 1-year, minimum, non-guaranteed contract and will be a RFA in the summer. I'm totally fine with him getting 3-4 million per year and, with what he's been showing, I have to believe the front office would be, too. Just match any offer, it's not like the Sixers can't afford it with their cap situation.

The team may not be very talented, but at least they go HAM.

That's the whole point and it makes the "losing on purpose" argument simply untrue.