Kobe, all but done.

[Wall St. Peon]

Regardless of whether or not the tearing occured in a previous sexual encounter, the sex with Kobe Bryant was violent in some way, as her blood was found on his clothes. That's one thing that the defense can't deny...

[thaKEAF]

I read in the newspaper that it was a five minute attack, heh.

Can't help but laugh at that.

[Poollit]

Everyone seems ready to believe Kobe's innocence and condemn the alleged victim. Kobe is innocent until proven guilty - why doesn't the alleged victim have that same right?

yes Andrew, people believe Kobe's innocence over the girls story, and yes Kobe is innocent until proven guilty...She isn't because she isn't the one facing 20 years of prison or probation or whatever. Remember the LAW says "innocent until proven guilty", and right now Kobe is still innocent cause no solid proof to show he is guilty...
I think Kobe will go off the hook, unless the DA can bring some solid evidence that he did rape her. Cause until then it's just a "maybe thats what ahppened".

her blood on Kobe's shirt? hmm....that might be solid enough; the only thing I can think of for that is she put it on him while they were screwing...but com'n who's gonna believe dat 1?

[Jackal]

The blood thing also confuses me a bit, Me and Kobe4MVP were talking about this and he said, it's possible that she was having her periods, I dont know if thats possible, I leave that to guys like Ben to enlighten me since I heard he is studying law.

Anyways: While me and kobe4mvp were talking, he redirected me to a forum where I read a very interesting post by a person, I will post it here so that you guys can discuss his post: REMEMBER I DID NOT WRITE THIS, DONT FLAME ME!!

Ok, now that I have a clearer picture of what happened yesterday, and had a chance to stew on it for a while, here are my thoughts on the impact of yesterday's hearing:
1) As expected, Mackey/Haddon completely outclassed and outlawyered the prosecution team. I have felt this way all along, but yesterday further reinforced my opinion that there is a serious discrepancy in legal talent in this case. Kobe has hired the two best criminal defense lawyers in the entire state of Colorado. The prosecution counters with a 34-year old rookie DA of a rural county, his top deputy who apparently could go into a seizure at any time, and a deputy DA on loan from Boulder who supposedly specializes in sex crimes. From every account of the hearing I have read, it wasn't even close in the courtroom. The judge may have gotten upset with Mackey's tactics, but he downright belittled the deputy DA presenting the case. I also wonder, since this is such a high profile case for Hurlburt, why didn't he handle the prelim? Also, since they borrowed a sex crimes specialist from Boulder, why didn't she handle the prelim? It seems like they were completely unprepared, and it could come back to haunt them.

2) The prosecution has no damning physical evidence. Mackey was able to establish on cross that, despite the horrific story recounted by the detective, the accuser had no apparent injuries that he could see. No bruising on the neck. No red marks on the neck. No scratches on the neck. Apparently, no bruising or abrasions anywhere else. The accuser is essentially claiming forcible rape, yet where is the evidence of force?

Let's look at what they introduced:

- 1 photo of a small (apparently) bruise on her jaw, which the detective testified he did not even see when he first interviewed her, and that was first noticed by the nurse who examined the accuser.

- 2 photos that purport to depict vaginal abrasions or "trauma" that was allegedly inconsistent with consensual sex. On cross, Mackey established that the photos had been greatly magnified, that the "trauma" consisted of a few small scrapes, that the actual size of the area photographed was 1-2 mm, and that dye had been added in order to make the "trauma" visible (i.e. you could not see the "trauma" without the dye being added). Mackey apparently also suggested that the small scrapes could have been caused by the instrument (speculum) used to conduct the vaginal examination. The detective literally could not tell up from down with regard to these photos, but that in and of itself does not mean a whole lot - a doctor or nurse will probably testify at to the photos at trial. Of course, I haven't even gotten to the nuclear bomb that Mackey detonated in the courtroom (see below).

I suppose the DA could be holding back some bombshell piece of physical evidence, but I really doubt it. For one, I doubt he would risk losing the prelim by holding back something key. If he loses the prelim, he can't then go back and say "Wait - I had more evidence I was too arrogant to use." It's too late at that point. Also, the testimony of the detectice would seem to contradict there being any other evidence of physical assault - he admitted he did not see any sign of injury on her.

3) All that being said, the blood does bother me somewhat. I think it can be explained away (maybe he simply cleaned himself off? "finished" in his shirt?), especially if the defense can somehow establish that she was menstruating, but I still don't like it. It's just too easy for the media, potential jurors, idiots like Hacksaw, Ventre, Plaschke, etc., to focus on.

4) I don't believe accusers story one bit. Before I knew what the story was going to be, I consistently called her the accuser - that's what she was. I have been preparing myself all along for some ambiguous situation where 12 people could somehow be convinced that they were having sex, she changed her mind in the middle, and Kobe could not/would not stop. That would still be rape under CO law, and seemed (actually, still seems) a whole lot more plausible than what the detective recounted yesterday.

As I understand it, this is the story. Allegedly, within 5 minutes of the accuser coming to Kobe's room, she wanted to leave. They then engaged in 5 minutes of consensual kissing. She then tried to leave again. Kobe then grabbed her around the neck with both hands, forced her over a chair, and raped her from behind, for about 5 minutes. The whole time he was asking her/telling her "You're not going to tell, right?" He then stopped and told her to go clean herself up. She went to the bathroom and dried her tears, fixed her makeup, etc., for (wait for it)... (wait for it)... 5 minutes. She comes out, Kobe then says she can't leave without "worshipping" his "idol". (Something that she forgot to mention to the detective, but somehow remembered to tell the nurse. Yeah. Sure.) After all that happens, she leaves the room. She remembers she forgot to count the money in the register before clocking out. She goes and does that. The bellhop sees her, she tells him what happened, he follows her home.

Does any of that seem remotely plausible to anyone? And I even left out the parts where she admitted to mutual flirting and to sneaking to his room by going through the kitchen. This raises so many questions/ doubts in my head I almost don't know where to begin. Here's just a few. Where is the bruising? Is her account even physically possible given the height difference between the two? Just how tall was that chair, anyway? Where is the bruising? What about Kobe's shoulder - which he had just surgery on - and his knee - which was so bad he was having surgery the next day? Why did everything take 5 minutes? Where is the bruising? Why didn't she cry out? (Remember, this was on the first floor - there had to be someone who could have heard.) Why didn't she go immediately to the manager's office and call 911? Where is the bruising? Why didn't the bellhop call 911? Why did she go back to the front desk to count the money - why not call security? Oh yeah, where the hell is the bruising? Anyone? Bueller?

5) I bet the courtroom is radioactive after the bomb Pam dropped. Seriously, several reporters have said it was like the air was sucked out of the courtroom after she said it. You all know what I'm talking about - Pam's question as to whether the "trauma" depicted in the photos was consistent with having sex with three men in three days. Wow. I highly doubt that Pam, given her reputation in the community and the fallout if she were bluffing, would come up with that number (3 men, 3 days) without some evidence to support it.

This is big for a lot of reasons: if true, it bypasses the rape shield laws and allows Pam to introduce evidence of those encounters to explain an alternate cause of the "injuries". Not only that, but this also helps the defense in its motions to get ahold of her medical records. It also casts a whole lot of aspersions on the accuser, and has to make the prosecution sweat about whether they are going to even want to take this case to trial and destroy the girl even further. She is saying to both the accuser and the DA very clearly that they are playing for keeps. Finally, it counterbalances the lurid details the detective testified about. For the next 6-8 months, the potential jury pool is going to hear this bandied about in the newspapers and on TV. A very not-so-subtle way of getting another side of the story out there.

On balance, they made the right call in going forward with the prelim. I have to admit that I was a little surprised when I heard they were proceeding, but I also thought once I heard it was going that the defense must have something pretty explosive that they believe could possibly derail the whole case. It turns out that, indeed, the defense did have a bomb to drop. Will it be enough to have the judge make a determination that probable cause does not exist? At this point, I don’t think so. At this stage the judge, by law, has to infer and interpret the evidence in the light most favorable to the prosecution. I believe that with that view, the judge can at least rule that there is probable cause to believe a crime was committed. But it’s a whole lot closer a call than most people ever imagined it would be.

So, if they couldn’t get the case kicked, why go forward? Well, for one, I agree that it’s not a bad idea to get the details out there, along with the vigorous defense, early, and let the uproar die down. There’s going to be a long wait until trial, and the media is bound to forget about the details after awhile. For example, how much do we hear about Scott Peterson right now? I also think it was important to show just how little evidence is actually out there. Every legal expert I have seen quoted indicated they were surprised at how weak the prosecution’s case appears to be. That’s great stuff for a potential jury pool to hear. I also think that if you are going to attack the girl, you do it now, because that way at trial it doesn’t seem a like a dirty trick or some stunt you see on “The Practice”.

Does it also help the DA a little bit? Sure. They now know something they didn’t about their case, and they have time to try and spin it. Also, they got to put out some pretty juicy details that a lot of people have glommed onto to the exclusion of the strong defense arguments. All told, however, I believe the prosecution’s case was hurt by the prelim more than it was helped, and that, although some of the details that came out don’t portrey Kobe in a very favorable light, his defense gained more than it lost.

[TRUball]

I don't know what to think... I was feeling nervous for Kobe hoping he didn't do it, but I wasn't sure... I was starting to believe he did rape her. But then I read that post of that guy that Jackel had in his post, and he makes a pretty good case, I am back on Kobes side after reading that and feel more confindent of Kobe. But I still don't know... I just want this to end and be over with so Kobe and get back to playing ball and inspiring me to play still...(even though I love the game anyways and always have and always will)

[Andrew]

yes Andrew, people believe Kobe's innocence over the girls story, and yes Kobe is innocent until proven guilty...She isn't because she isn't the one facing 20 years of prison or probation or whatever.

So because she's not Kobe Bryant, and because she's the alleged victim, she shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt? Please.

The DA obviously has enough evidence to make this an issue, the alleged victim was warned of the consequences of making a false rape claim. This isn't a civil suit, it's a criminal case. As Ben said, if she wanted fame and fortune, she wouldn't have gone to the police - she would probably go straight to a civil action or even attempted to blackmail Kobe.

I think Kobe will go off the hook, unless the DA can bring some solid evidence that he did rape her. Cause until then it's just a "maybe thats what ahppened".

Where's the proof that she's lying though? There's more evidence that suggests there was some kind of incident (apart from the adultery) than there is evidence she's lying. We know she's certainly not lying about having had sex with Kobe, since he admitted to that (which he wouldn't do unless it was true - Kobe isn't stupid).

Innocent until proven guilty, yes, but the reality of the situation is Kobe must still prove that innocence. Well, he must prove that he's "not guilty" and that he did not do what he's charged to have done, so technically speaking he has to prove his innocence. Same as any other criminal trial.

No matter what the verdict, we may never know the real truth. Innocent people have been convicted of crimes they did not commit, and guilty people have been allowed to go free.

But Kobe is the one who will have to prove that he is indeed innocent. Innocent until proven guilty, but the alleged victim is not guilty yet either. Your justification of condemning her without evidence (that she's not facing serious consequences for committing a crime) is, with all due respect, nonsense. Would you make the same claim if this wasn't Kobe Bryant on trial?

Finally, allow me to clarify my position. I hope Kobe is innocent, I hope that there has been a great misunderstanding, that he did not commit this crime. But if he did - and there's a definite possibility that he did - he should be punished as anyone else would be.

Furthermore, even if the alleged victim is lying about being raped (we know she isn't lying about intercourse), while it's a terrible thing to have done (and she would be punished, if it could be proven she was lying) and no one deserves to have their name dragged through the mud...Kobe still put himself in this position. He's a married man - he didn't have to have sex with her, consensual or otherwise. He shouldn't have had sex with her, consensual or otherwise.

This whole incident, no matter whether it was rape or adultery, shouldn't have happened. By being unfaithful, Kobe is in part responsible for what's happening right now. Does that make it right if the alleged victim is lying? Of course not. Nothing makes that right. But it's difficult to feel complete sorrow for someone who created this mess by doing something that was morally wrong.

[Robby]

But it's difficult to feel complete sorrow for someone who created this mess by doing something that was morally wrong.

That's true but you also have to realize that faithfullness to one's significant other has done down quite a bit in today's society. I do sympathize with Kobe (not because he cheated on his wife) but for being punished for something that happens regualry in the NBA. Even Michael Jordan was guilty of cheating on his wife, so this is a common practice in the NBA. Of course this is under the assumption that Kobe didn't assault the girl which I feel will be very difficult for the defense to prove because of the blood on Kobe's shirt as I said before and Shane reiterated. I just don't know how the defense will explain that and I'm wondering why Kobe didn't wash or burn that shirt if there was blood on it even if he never thought this thing was going to get this out of hand.

[Andrew]

Quite right. Both Michael and Magic cheated on Juanita and Cookie respectively. I do sympathise with Kobe as this is a very difficult time for him, he made a mistake (adultery) that he most certainly regrets and will have to live with, and as you pointed out he's not the only NBA player to be unfaithful.

But I still feel he put himself in this position. He's somewhat responsible for what's going on right now.

[Jackal]

I do sympathize with Kobe (not because he cheated on his wife) but for being punished for something that happens regualry in the NBA.

Sorry, here I disagree, just because it happens regularly doesnt mean I will have sympathy for Kobe. What he did was wrong. He's a married man, yet he went and screwed another chick. If you cant keep your dick in your pants, dont get married. No sympathy for him in this aspect.

I'm wondering why Kobe didn't wash or burn that shirt if there was blood on it even if he never thought this thing was going to get this out of hand.

I don't think the bloodstains were that big, the bloodstains might not have gotten his attention otherwise I'm sure he would have washed/disposed of the shirt.

[jwin]

i may be wrong but, isn't all the judge needs is enough evidence that the prosecution has a case to go forward with? if that's the case, can anyone say right now that with all that has come out so far, that kobe did not rape this young woman. if the case does go forward, isn't the normal occurence that eventually a jury will be selected who will be the ones to determine his innocence or guilt. and it has to be beyond a reasonable doubt. is the woman's sexual history no matter how long before their encounter enough to prove that he did not rape her?

think of it this way, if a prostitute had recently attempted suicide, then a few weeks later was back doing what she does, and has sex with several men in one night, then is raped by some guy because she doesn't want to have anal intercourse or decides she wants to stop and give him his money back, does that give anyone enough reason to say that because she has slept with all these different guys already, this one jerk did not rape her? does it excuse him because it is her profession to provide pleasure? does she not have the right to change her mind, even if she at first agreed? regardless of who she was with, it does not prove he didn't do it, and i don't think a jury would make that determination based on what WE know so far. that may bring doubt as to whether kobe inflicted those injuries, but it doesn't say he didn't either, and here the blood works against HIM, not whoever else she may have been with.

[Robby]

Quite right. Both Michael and Magic cheated on Juanita and Cookie respectively. I do sympathise with Kobe as this is a very difficult time for him, he made a mistake (adultery) that he most certainly regrets and will have to live with, and as you pointed out he's not the only NBA player to be unfaithful.

But I still feel he put himself in this position. He's somewhat responsible for what's going on right now.

Without a doubt, Kobe is to blame for this mess. I just feel bad for him because many NBA players cheated on their wives much more than Kobe (Shawn Kemp, Jason Kidd, Scottie Pippen, to name a few) and never had this much legal trouble although Kemp did have his fair share of paternity suits.

[GForce11]

He's getting what he deserves, guilty or innocent. Shouldn't have been sticking is prick into someone other than his wife. Nothing to be feeling sorry about.
Cheating isn't just a "mistake" and for those who think so, be sure to think about it when your girlfriends and wives cheat on you and you tell me whether its just a mistake.