World Peace elbows Harden, gets ejected

[benji]

Of course you would. It's somebody on your team so you don't care if he murders someone, meanwhile a player on a team you don't like inadvertently hits another in the head and you're calling it the worst attack in world history, want him banned from the league and arrested.

[NovU]

But Wade never did try to hurt somebody with his friendly shove, but was just returning a small favor to being elbowed. As for Artest, he did almost murder Harden with his elbow. And I used to be somewhat of a fan in his Rodman like demeanor. Now, fuck him. Came along a cheap shot was one lost fan.

EDIT: Apology to the Bulls' fans. Wade did overreact to the bit of shove. I've overgone to protect Wade but it was a jerk move regardless to push him so hard to the ground. But I'd rather see it as a make-a-statement move and never a trying-to-hurt-you move. And the stage is nicely set for the playoffs between these two teams now. The rivalry is growing.

[benji]

lol "friendly shove" be more of a homer.

If LeBron James was standing on the perimeter and Artest was guarding him, and then Artest, in anger for not being able to defend him, shoved LeBron who fell and got injured you would want Artest punished severely, right? What if Rip had gotten injured from Wade's "friendly" deliberate and targeted unnecessary shove?

Why aren't you calling for Kevin Love to be banned for life? That wasn't inadvertent at all and far more dangerous.

If Harden didn't get in Artest's way and nothing happened would you still be calling for him to be banned for life? What if Artest had gotten around his body and elbowed Harden in the back to push him away would you still want him banned for life?

You can't ban a guy for life because he inadvertently hit someone in the head. What if Ibaka tries to block someone and misses and nails them in the head? BANNED FOR LIFE? What if Blake Griffin hits someone in the face (like he often does) while dunking? BANNED FOR LIFE?

You have to focus on the action, not the result.

Then again, you probably want Haywood banned for life for this:

[NovU]

You and I both know permanent ban was never going to happen anyways, but yeah, that Haywood deserves one alright.

By the way, what do you think is a reasonable punishment then? I'd say 10 is too little but 15 or more game suspension is about right.

[benji]

Derek Fisher got zero games, Kevin Love got two games, Andrew Bynum got five games. So 0-5 games seems about right.

[NovU]

BS, benji. How much is Metta World Piece of shit paying you?

On more serious note, I hear estimates ranges from a two-game ban all the way up to ten games. That I think is weak but then I see that those are the playoffs games. Possibly up to 2 series.

[benji]

All three of those players did something worse. And if the league is setting a standard that flagrants = five games or less I see zero rationale that Artest should be given more than five games. I think he should get one or two games if that because Love only got two games. But I can understand five games to match Bynum because of Artest's prior season-long suspension.

The NBA has never handed down a punishment of more than five games for any fouls that I'm aware of. Fights, assaulting fans/media/coaches/referees and criminal charges are the ways to get longer suspensions without testing positive for drugs.

Now they might do so in this case because of the media feeding frenzy and demands of the out for blood crybabies like you since Artest is an easy scapegoat. But I really don't think the league or any fans should want to start a precedent where we hand out 10+ game suspensions for inadvertent events like this.

[NovU]

I don't know how you can claim that any of those guys' actions were worse. Maybe you can make a case for Bynum but it's a big big maybe. And media are feeding it cuz it deserves it. The incident caught everyones attention right away and I felt it myself cuz non bball friends of mine even called me shocked after seeing it happened. I dont know how u can downplay his absurd action. That was not only dangerous and stupid but it was also an extrme abnormal behaviour that you can't even imagine of it happening in any sport outside the UFC.

[benji]

How can you not see those are worse? All are deliberate and targeted actions. Artest's ultimate "damage" is inadvertent.

Fisher dilberately targets Scola. Love looks down, sees Scola and deliberately steps on his head. Bynum deliberately gave the forearm shiver to Barea. In each case the player looked right at the player, could have chosen another option and instead did what they did. (Love probably would have struggled to avoid stepping on Scola somewhere but he deliberately aimed for his head and moved his foot to do so.)

Artest did not target Harden for a blow as Fisher and Bynum did. His "target" was "whoever is getting up on me interrupting my celebration" and had Harden not stuck to him Artest would have got him in the back or something pushing him away with his elbow. Something that basically everyone in the league does, especially KG, and if it ever gets called it's merely a technical. But Harden didn't move and was shorter (with Artest's arms higher due to his stupid celebration) so Artest got him in the head.

Hell, as I noted, Artest's hit on Barea (and Odom's crotch) was much worse than this.

In the case of Fisher, Love, Bynum, Wade, Melo and Artest on Barea, they all initiated the unnecessary and excessive contact. Harden initiated contact with Artest.

Mens rea matters.

[NovU]

BS logic but somehow makes sense.

[benji]

Of course it makes sense, because it isn't bullshit. Intentions matter, I'm not saying Artest shouldn't be punished, I think any headblow like that is fair game for a flagrant two and then a couple games suspension.

But you, and others, have been acting like this was Kermit Washington caving in Rudy T's skull in a fight. Go read your posts on the first page. I was mockingly absolving Artest of any blame because of how bloodthirsty everyone was. (Also quoting serious Laker fans which is good fun.) You guys were calling him an animal and demanding blood in a way I've never seen.

Artest intended to elbow whoever was bodying him up, but this happens all the time, and I believe him when he says he didn't intend to smash Harden in the head. He doesn't look at him, and at most caught a Thunder player coming up and getting in his way to stop him from celebrating. That's why he says it was an accident and believes it. He thought he was just doing what everybody does constantly to get rid of a guy getting up on them, but he inadvertently nailed Harden in the head. I think when you watch his reaction to Thunder players charging him/his teammates trying to get in-between and the call you can see he didn't intend it as a "yeah, I'm bashing Harden" but more of "fuck this dude getting on me" type of thing.

And when you take into account Artest's entire...life, that's the most logical theory.

Remember, and this is really key, if Harden doesn't come up and try to slow up Artest and stop his celebration he doesn't get jacked in the head. That's not absolving Artest, but it's noting the key fact that Artest didn't seek the guy out to deliver a cheap shot like Bynum did to Barea or Fisher to Scola.

Or Artest did to Barea.

[Andrew]

I'd forgotten about that elbow from Fisher. Definitely should've cost him a game or two, that was pretty dirty.

[shadowgrin]

I don't know what's more stupidly ridiculous, the confirmation bias or the use of an anecdote to support that bias.

'My friends who don't know basketball called me and were shocked! THAT PROVES THAT IT'S A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY! BAN HIM FROM BASKETBALL! BAN HIM FROM THE COUNTRY! SEND HIM TO CANADA!'

It's so ridiculous that it's not even fun or even constructive anymore for me to participate in such a discussion.

[koberulz]

with Artest's arms higher due to his stupid celebration

But they weren't. He intentionally moved his arm up in order to throw the elbow.

And again, if he didn't mean to hit him in the head, why did he continue to prance down the court beating his chest? Those are not the actions of someone who has accidentally elbowed someone, regardless of whether the accident pertains merely to the location of impact or not.

And even if he did mean to elbow him somewhere else, a longer suspension needs to be handed down because you just can't have people elbowing others in the head. You want to throw an elbow, you better make damn sure you're going nowhere near the head. End of.

[NovU]

I don't know what's more stupidly ridiculous, the confirmation bias or the use of an anecdote to support that bias.

'My friends who don't know basketball called me and were shocked! THAT PROVES THAT IT'S A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY! BAN HIM FROM BASKETBALL! BAN HIM FROM THE COUNTRY! SEND HIM TO CANADA!'

It's so ridiculous that it's not even fun or even constructive anymore for me to participate in such a discussion.

Sure, thanks for your thoughtful input as usual. How constructive you've been, it's amazing.

I see some points in benji's arguments that made some sense but doesn't necessarily mean I agree with them. Again, that's his perspective I respect that, and that's that.

[shadowgrin]

Who's saying about agreeing on things? If people are going to give out arguments, might as well give out ones that are consistent and make sense.

[NovU]

Going back to how all this started...

Thinking about it what that scumbag Wade did shouldn't be considered less different from what scumbag World Peace did.

Sure, let benji do the talking and you didn't need to participate in such a discussion. Never was interested in your version anyways but thanks for being constructive and making so much sense.

[shadowgrin]

Fortunately benji's posts contain the things on why I think that way and maybe even agree on some of it. Why should I repeat it? For the sake of repetition, being obvious, and show that I agree with it?

I could quote the ones I agree on benji's posts if you want along with your responses that I find quite ludicrous.

And like I said, after seeing some of the thoughts that make no sense posted in this thread that I don't even want to bother to contribute anything to the discussion itself since it's obvious that nothing will make you at least think about your opinion or the opposite opinion since "that's that" or even "BS logic".

Those last two posts of mine weren't even dipping into the discussion of the topic but on the quality of your arguments which is certainly lacking.


But unlike others, you've been the only one to give out and defend your opinion on why Artest should be hanged, I'll give my two cents just in this post for you since you're nice and all:

Harden wanted Artest to go crazy and do something to him. Just look at what Harden did. Why in the hell would Harden play full court defense on Artest when Artest wasn't even holding the ball, not receiving the ball, not even looking at the ball and that OKC WAS THE ONE ON OFFENSE AND LAKERS ON DEFENSE?

Artest didn't come near Harden to initiate contact, it was Harden that did it. Not saying that Harden should be blamed for what happened but Harden is hardly innocent here. More like a willing victim who knew the risk of agitating Artest and intended to do so.

[Andrew]

To me it looked like Harden simply collided with World Peace after trailing the play and trying to chase him down for the block, at which point World Peace got caught up in the moment and did some very stupid and reckless. It didn't look like anything except players getting caught up after a made basket.

As far as it being intentional, I'd say the elbow was intentional but clocking Harden in the head wasn't. It wasn't premeditated, a case of "I'm going after Harden and I'm going to elbow him in the head", but the wind-up suggests he sure meant to throw an elbow at whoever it was, which I maintain is reckless and dirty. It's definitely not the most heinous thing we've ever seen, from World Peace or anyone else for that matter, though I for one never said it was. I'd go with a suspension of up to five games and the token fine, though it wouldn't surprise me too much if it's longer.

[Spree#8]

7 games... wow, really? I guess the league desperately wants to ensure Lakers aren't weakened for long in the playoffs. If Artest was playing for a small market team, the suspension would likely be much longer.

[Andrew]

I thought it might be 5-10, they went with seven. I'd have gone up to five games but there you have it.

[volsey]

Am I the only one that feels 7 games is a little low? A headshot that was both intentional and completely unnecessary which lead to a concussion I feel is a lot more serious than a heat of the moment push or shove (Wade's).

While I agree it wasn't premeditated and most likely just getting caught up in the moment, wtf do you expect to happen when swinging a rigid elbow at shoulder length. It was clearly intentional and aimed at the head imo. He showed zero morose afterwards, and the fact that he continues to lie is despicable. I never had much respect for the lunatic before, but now I straight up hate him.

The fact that he won't even miss the entire first round I think is stupid, but w/e, obviously I view headshots, especially intentional ones, a little differently than most. But you look at the NHL and NFL, and how they're cracking down on head injuries, and I just can't see those leagues letting something as unnecessary and dangerous as this slide for only 7 games, playoffs or not.

[Sauru]

7 is only low cause its artest. anyone else gets 5 max, probably 3

[shadowgrin]

The fact that he won't even miss the entire first round I think is stupid.

So him missing 8 games would at least be acceptable but 7 games is not?
The Lakers only have 1 more game left in the regular season and a possible 7 games in the first round. He would only be able play in the first round if it goes to a game 7. If the Lakers sweep their first round opponent then Artest would still be out 2 games in the second round.

7 games... wow, really? I guess the league desperately wants to ensure Lakers aren't weakened for long in the playoffs. If Artest was playing for a small market team, the suspension would likely be much longer.

Kevin Love plays for a small market team, Minnesota, and yet he only got 2 games for stomping on Luis Scola's mouth while he was down.
A move that is even illegal in the UFC. Why are people not demanding Love's head on the guillotine or even considering him banned from the NBA, the USA, and be exiled to Canada?
The reactions against Artest make it sound like he eats babies to a person who has no clue to what Artest did to Harden.
Besides, the 'short' suspension is Stern's one way of paying back to the Lakers for that aborted Chris Paul trade.


As this great patriot once said:

GET OVER IT!

[NovU]

Still 7 games sounds lenient to me. And that's including 1 meaningless season game. Not too surprised though.