LeBron James: No Respect?

[The X]

The rules have been changed to stop team basketball, instead theyre promoting a single player winning. I can't stand it.

Flopping doesnt help either, while Im bitching about things...

that's why I follow college basketball a lot more than NBA....sure the level of talent isn't there, but it seems to be more about team basketball....

How often do you see a single player "winning it"
Look at tonight.. how many points did Lebron score?
Look at the Pistons and Spurs...
Look at LA and Kobe, u got 1 person up there alright... are they winning? Are you on crack? Wake up this is team basketball.. i think Kevin Durant and Melo showed what super talent is like in an inferior (talent-wise) league/game(college) ...


Lebron did it in game 5... he showed how much bigger, stronger, faster and skilled(not exactly, but he was on fire alright)...

Why many experts and non experts kept our jaws opened for hours and hours is because it doesn't happen very often..

I don't know what you are talking about 1CenT, you must have directed that at Laxation as I just stated that I prefer college basketball because it seems to be more of about team basketball than the NBA....I never said that there is no such a thing as team basketball in the NBA, as the game of basketball is 5-on-5, so regardless of the level, it is a team game....

to argue your point, the rules introduced into the NBA clearly promote single player dominance....you can't touch a player on the perimeter or when he is on the move with the ball....look what Dwayne Wade did in last year's Finals, it was an utter disgrace IMHO....I'm a big fan of Wade & not to take away from some of the amazing things he did last year, but the flopping & touch fouls were just plain ridiculous....it's not the player's fault either, they are just playing within the rules set by the league....

onto the flopping topic, I'm the type of person that believes that deliberate & blatant flopping should get a player a technical....and I believe that diving in soccer should get players red cards, or yellow at the very least (look what happened to Italy in World Cup, they dove over an Australian player & won the game & then ended up winning World Cup....bad behaviour is rewarded)....

your argument is that college basketball talent is inferior, but that is not an argument you can make as I had already stated in my initial comment that despite the lack of talent of the college level, I still prefer it....

but this is just me....I've never awed over Allen Iverson....a great individual talent, but I just hate to see get the ball to Iverson, isolation, Iverson shoots/drives/crossover whatever....that isn't my cup of tea....I don't like Cavs play as to me, it seems similar....the fact Lebron is a good passer & found open Daniel Gibson was great, it got them the W....for me, I enjoy watching Phoenix (for obvious reasons), but I also enjoy watching more team-oriented play of Spurs & Jazz....I appreciate the team basketball played by those teams....but those teams are not single player teams....

A no-call on a flop isnt enough. Tech fouls should be given. I realise this will end up being just another subjective call that ends up being bitched and moaned about, but it surely has to work on some level...

In my opinion assessing a technical foul on flops is just going to slow the game up and cause even more problems as what constitutes a flop is going to vary from referee to referee. A non-call can effectively punish a player (and hence his team) for flopping on defense by allowing play to go on with a defender on the floor and out of the play giving up a wide open jumper or path to the hoop. Similarly, a player who throws up a wild shot on a wild flail intended to draw a foul will be punished by the non-call by a wasted possession.

If there's no reward for it, there's no incentive to do it.

good point there Andrew, a non-call would be better....that happens a bit in my local competition & it works well

[Andrew]

onto the flopping topic, I'm the type of person that believes that deliberate & blatant flopping should get a player a technical....and I believe that diving in soccer should get players red cards, or yellow at the very least (look what happened to Italy in World Cup, they dove over an Australian player & won the game & then ended up winning World Cup....bad behaviour is rewarded)....

How do you define a deliberate and blatant flop though? When it comes to drawing charges most players have to sell the contact at least a little bit; Hubie Brown seems to nominate every offensive foul in games he announces as being flops. Given that the charge/blocking foul call is made in a split second and is at the discretion of the referees, assessing a technical on deliberate flops would likely be an incredibly inconsistent call.

[Laxation]

If there's no reward for it, there's no incentive to do it.

A prevention is better than a cure

Teching it is a prevention, it deters people from flopping.

Im sure there will be some charges that would get the wrong call, and it wouldn't be consistent (no rules are anyway...) but it is highly likely to reduce the amount of flops taken, since there is a risk of being T'd up for it.
If it is just a no-call, it could be argued more flops would be taken, since there is a bigger need to do it, if they aren't being called as often. (Doubtful, but Im arguing anything at this point... I fucking hate flops)

X, in soccer, I'm pretty sure you do get yellow cards for diving. It would be interesting to see statistics of amounts of dives before and after they introduced this rule.

[Sauru]

I think the only "rule" regarding flopping would be to recognize a flop and make a no call.

i agree. i think a no call can be worse than a actual call. if a defender flops and the ref dont blow the whistle then you can pretty much guarentee that a score is coming. same on offense, you flop and lose the ball, the other team is off and running with a man advantage. they just need to stop calling the flop. its to the point where you cant even back down anymore. i miss the days of centers banging for position, now if you lean into the defender he goes flying.

[Matt]

the worst flops are when the post guy establishes position and the "defender" runs into him/grabs his arm/flails like a monkey and falls over....yeah i'm talking about Varejao.

[Laxation]

Here is a good quote from another forum:

Just a couple of things that I noticed all series long:
- LeBron can stick out his forearm and use it to push in our players chests, and if we touch that arm, it is a foul.
- We all know about the Rasheed reputation and the insta-techs that he gets. (by the way, I'm glad he got thrown out. At least he has the balls to say it to the referees faces what we are all thinking)
- The traveling rule depends on which player has the ball.
- If we go after a loose ball and hit someone, it's a foul. They go hard after a loose ball and hit someone, it's playoff basketball.
- Varejao is allowed to smack Sheed in the post with his chest and continue to bump him, but the second Sheed bumps back, he flops and it's a foul on Sheed.
- A flagrant foul for Dyess is an ejection, a flagrant on Gooden is one shot.
- At one point the free throw differential was 42-19. Guess what, if it was the same we are winning that game.

[Sauru]

hey flopping wins ball games now, the pistons need to get with it. i would of thought the entire nba would have learned that after last years flop heroics by wade.

[Drex]

Hey, Piston whining. That's a new one, they always won the last couple years.

[Laxation]

What else can you do... Basketball is a massive part of my life, so Im not just gonna stop paying attention to it. The rules are changed to screw over detroit. Whining helps. It really does

[el badman]

- We all know about the Rasheed reputation and the insta-techs that he gets. (by the way, I'm glad he got thrown out. At least he has the balls to say it to the referees faces what we are all thinking)

Yeah, getting technicals game after game and being thrown out really helps your team, cuz at least he's telling the refs what his teammates are thinking...
Can't believe Sheed still doesn't have the maturity to control himself after all these years, that's pretty sad....

The rules are changed to screw over detroit.

So the Spurs and Cavs are only in the Finals because they have the finest floppers?
Like you, I really wanted Detroit to win this series, but you gotta admit that they really haven't played at their usual level, on both sides of the court, even in the first 2 games that they won. I mean, I couldn't even recognize Billups and Prince, and the defense was a joke compared to the last 3 years. I don't think that "unfavorable" rules is the only thing to blame here...

[Laxation]

Badman, we played like shit. Got coached like shit. Boobie played off his tits. Lebron tore it up in game 5. Our bench was shit...

Billups scored 7 points and 1 assist in game 6. Sheed had 2 rebounds. Our bench scored about 10 points. Coaching was fucking horrible. Prince was 1-600 in the series.

Did I mention Flip Saunders is a tool?

Don't abuse the way Sheed went out though. I fucking loved how he went out. The game was already lost at that point (with the way we were playing, there was no hope of a comeback) He got a bullshit offensive foul against him at one end, and a no-call at the other end. Add that to his intencity (read: propencity to go stupid) and his reaction is fair enough.

So the Spurs and Cavs are only in the Finals because they have the finest floppers?

Spurs are just good
Cavs are there because the East sucks, and the NBA wants them to be.

There aint no $$ in another Spurs/Detroit final

[Sauru]

this is a funny series, first we had cheater complaining about the calls and now the piston fans come out

[TSquared]

no respect makes the finals

[Laxation]

this is a funny series, first we had cheater complaining about the calls and now the piston fans come out

lmao

see now youre getting it!

My position has changed from 'fuck the refs', to 'fuck varejao and flopping'
Star treatment is here to stay, but at least flopping can be gotten rid of...

[Andrew]

A prevention is better than a cure

Teching it is a prevention, it deters people from flopping.

You're right, prevention is better than a cure. But the NBA is going to achieve that whether they decide to assess a technical or simply refuse to award floppers. Either way, there's no incentive for players to flop, thus preventing it from being an abused strategy.

[ThaLiveKing]

The rules have been changed to stop team basketball, instead theyre promoting a single player winning. I can't stand it.

Flopping doesnt help either, while Im bitching about things...

Sounds like NBA Live 07 LOL


Honestly . . .Cleveland flops a lot, so if they don't get calls it's because of that.

[Sauru]

this is a funny series, first we had cheater complaining about the calls and now the piston fans come out

lmao

see now youre getting it!

My position has changed from 'fuck the refs', to 'fuck varejao and flopping'
Star treatment is here to stay, but at least flopping can be gotten rid of...

i think the nba has to get rid of it, every year the flops get worse and worse and the nba will eventually lose fans to it. to be honest i dont even like how players jump infront of driving players to draw the charge but atleast thats a legit play.

[Laxation]

Here, are some nice flops
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0upQDkY-pg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNN9ZiH38fs

Either way, there's no incentive for players to flop, thus preventing it from being an abused strategy.

No, if there is a no-call, there is no incentive.
If there is a tech, there is a punishment for the shit play.

[Elbeen]

but if referees stop calling flops then players will eventually stop. it just a matter of zero-tolerance on flopping

[maes]

Players are flopping because that's the only legal way to play defense nowadays, everything else is a foul.

Trying to defend someone, even a normal person, without touching them with either your legs, arms, or hands is retarded. Now make that person an NBA level athlete like Nash or Kobe, and the futility is in full effect.

I'm honestly not surprised the younger players are either
1. Not even trying to defend
2. Flopping

Somehow Stu Jackson thinks it's perfectly viable to defend LeBron James with your stomach.

[TSquared]

its just a matter of referee's other referees call flops..others don't..its just a matter of timing..

[Andrew]

Either way, there's no incentive for players to flop, thus preventing it from being an abused strategy.

No, if there is a no-call, there is no incentive.
If there is a tech, there is a punishment for the shit play.

And if there's no incentive to do it, players won't do it. If a flop results in a non-call it's going to place the defense at a disadvantage more often than not, hence they're punishing themselves anyway.

Whichever method you want to use, the end result is going to be the same; players will have to rethink the strategy of flopping. I prefer the non-call because it doesn't interrupt the flow of the game and it won't involve controversial calls whether it's questionable as to whether or not a player flopped intentionally or not. Besides, the non-call worked fine in years gone by. If they get up and start complaining after the non-call, by all means T them up.

[Sauru]

fully agreed

[Laxation]

The problem is, you cant get rid of it with "during play" penalties, because the refs can be fooled. That's why they flop in the first place.

Instead, you'll have to hand out fines, techs, and suspensions based on tape reviews. That's where it is more reliably determined, and thats the only way to get rid of it.

Right now, if they can fake out the ref, it gets REWARDED. But after the game, you can make the penalty so severe that they wont chase the reward the next time.

This is way too logical and awesome to ever be implemented.

[Laxation]

God dam I love Bill Simmons!

(Hey, while I was typing, we just had Anderson Varejao's first flop of the night! That was fun. I can't wait until he and Manu Ginobili collide during this series -- it's going to be like when they crossed the streams in "Ghostbusters.")

7:53: Our first ridiculously wuss-tastic flagrant foul of the night: Gooden getting whistled on a breakaway foul where he kindasorta cuffed Ginobili's neck, who then reacted like he was being gunned down by a firing squad. We're about 20 years away from this game becoming a noncontact sport like women's lacrosse. I'm telling you.

I think I just pee'd a little...


http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... ons/070608



I also LOL'd at this... check it out