I am going out on a limb...(T-Wolves off-season related)

[[L3]1101]

I don't think so. AI is in the same position as KG - he (supposedly) doesn't want to leave the team. If he did leave, he certainly wouldn't pick a small market team like Minnesotta. No bloody way their agents allow that.

So why is KG still in Minnesotta if his agent don't like the small market of Minnesotta?

[Laker Socks]

Because he is in the same position as AI.

[Fenix]

So why is KG still in Minnesotta if his agent don't like the small market of Minnesotta?

Because no one else was able to give KG a bigger contract and if he waited to become a unrestricted FA, he could injure himself. If a superstar demands a trade, his agent usually sends a list of teams he is willing to go to (Shaq, VC, T-Mac, they all did that and you better be sure Minnesotta wasn't on their list).

[[L3]1101]

I agree that, that's what usually happens, but at this stage of their careers, both AI and KG, they really don't need anymore publicity. They are looking for a championship team. If AI is smart enough, he should know that by going to Min, he has a chance to to go the playoffs, perhaps pretty deap into the playoffs. This might be the last chance for the two players to make a push for the title(i mean last chance for the team). If they wait a few more years, i don't know if they produce the number they are producing, and their trade value will certainly not be as high as right now.

[Andrew]

I suppose one should never say never but I can't see the Sixers going for that. If they wanted to deal AI they could surely demand more than that in return.

I would -almost- say the exact same thing.... except..... look at what the Lakers traded Shaq for

That's true, though there were a few factors that forced the Lakers' hand on that one such as Shaq's willingness to leave Los Angeles and the situation with Kobe's free agent status. AI isn't making any public trade demands and is under contract for another three years and from what I've gathered it doesn't look like he can opt out before then, so there's less pressure for the Sixers to trade him and make whatever deal they can get.

[Riot]

So why is KG still in Minnesotta if his agent don't like the small market of Minnesotta?

Because no one else was able to give KG a bigger contract and if he waited to become a unrestricted FA, he could injure himself. If a superstar demands a trade, his agent usually sends a list of teams he is willing to go to (Shaq, VC, T-Mac, they all did that and you better be sure Minnesotta wasn't on their list).

That is the stupidest thing I haev ever heard. Garnett is in Minnesota because he loves it here, not because he can get more money here. He has had plenty of chances to become a free agent or tell management he is done and he wants out. He hasn't because he loves the community here (recently won the community award) and he likes the small market lifestyle. Not everyone wants to go to the big cities, Vank. Some people don't like the big market attention and press.

Iverson moving to Minnesota would not be that bad for his sponsers. Garnett has plenty of sponsers and he has been stuck in Minnesota for his whole career.

[Laker Socks]

I suppose one should never say never but I can't see the Sixers going for that. If they wanted to deal AI they could surely demand more than that in return.

I would -almost- say the exact same thing.... except..... look at what the Lakers traded Shaq for

That's true, though there were a few factors that forced the Lakers' hand on that one such as Shaq's willingness to leave Los Angeles and the situation with Kobe's free agent status. AI isn't making any public trade demands and is under contract for another three years and from what I've gathered it doesn't look like he can opt out before then, so there's less pressure for the Sixers to trade him and make whatever deal they can get.

Actually, the biggest factor was Shaq and Kobe was not part of the reason why the lakers got less than market value.

Lakers could have gotten Jermaine O'Neal from Indiana but Snaq threatened to not show up in indiana or slack off. Apparently, Shaq wanted to be traded to a warm place like AHEM Miami.

Lakers could've also gotten Elton Brand but you guessed it, Shaq did not want to be traded to the clippers.

[Andrew]

Well, however you want to look at what happened with the Lakers, the Sixers aren't in the same situation.

[Drex]

Besides, Iverson loves Philly. Why would he want to move?

[Fenix]

That's more or less Sixers' decision, don't you think?

[magius]

I suppose one should never say never but I can't see the Sixers going for that. If they wanted to deal AI they could surely demand more than that in return.

I would -almost- say the exact same thing.... except..... look at what the Lakers traded Shaq for

That's true, though there were a few factors that forced the Lakers' hand on that one such as Shaq's willingness to leave Los Angeles and the situation with Kobe's free agent status. AI isn't making any public trade demands and is under contract for another three years and from what I've gathered it doesn't look like he can opt out before then, so there's less pressure for the Sixers to trade him and make whatever deal they can get.

Actually, the biggest factor was Shaq and Kobe was not part of the reason why the lakers got less than market value.

Lakers could have gotten Jermaine O'Neal from Indiana but Snaq threatened to not show up in indiana or slack off. Apparently, Shaq wanted to be traded to a warm place like AHEM Miami.

Lakers could've also gotten Elton Brand but you guessed it, Shaq did not want to be traded to the clippers.

considering how mitch shitforbrains and his idiot owner treated shaq I don't blame him. Talk about no loyalty and zero respect to the savior of your franchise.... its no surprise almost all the other lakers, old and new, jumped ship too.

does ai have a no trade clause in his contract, btw?

[Indy]

Lakers could have gotten Jermaine O'Neal from Indiana but Snaq threatened to not show up in indiana or slack off. Apparently, Shaq wanted to be traded to a warm place like AHEM Miami.

Where the hell did you get that?

[Donatello]

Lakers could have gotten Jermaine O'Neal from Indiana but Snaq threatened to not show up in indiana or slack off. Apparently, Shaq wanted to be traded to a warm place like AHEM Miami.

Where the hell did you get that?

Yeah, I never heard that anywhere. And I'm pretty big on reading up on the rumors.

[Laker Socks]

Lakersground, clublakers, lakerstalk.

Well, however you want to look at what happened with the Lakers, the Sixers aren't in the same situation.

I dont mean to be rude but i never mentioned anything about the sixers in my previous post.

I was correcting a misconception that Kobe had anything to do with the lakers getting less from market value.

considering how mitch shitforbrains and his idiot owner treated shaq I don't blame him. Talk about no loyalty and zero respect to the savior of your franchise....

Since we're talking about loyalty and respect, why not recall how Shaq called the owner a motherfucker 1 year before demanding a trade?

How about showing your proffesionalism by FINALLY getting into shape when he gets traded to miami yet did nothing to get in shape for the lakers for the last couple of years. What a proffesional!

its no surprise almost all the other lakers, old and new, jumped ship too.

Who exactly jumped ship when Shaq was traded?
Horry left the year before Shaq was traded. So did Mark Madsen.
Derek Fisher wanted to stay but GS offered him the full MLE and now way in hell the lakers will pay him that much.
Gary Payton chose to stay but was traded.
Rick Fox was traded and retired.
Ho Grant was too old to even consider coming back another year.
Karl Malone went hunting for little mexican girls.
Kareem Rush was traded for a second round pick(Turiaf)
Luke Walton resigned. So did Slava.

Who exactly jumped ship?

[air gordon]

get it through your thick skull, Riot. dreaming up a trade scenario is not a rumor. when it rains in minnesota you probably think God is trying to drown Garnett

[Riot]

get it through your thick skull, Riot. dreaming up a trade scenario is not a rumor. when it rains in minnesota you probably think God is trying to drown Garnett

Do you go around trying to flame me? I did not dream up this scenario, it is something that has been going around a lot here. It is something that McHale and Taylor both have publicly said they were after. Sixers management says they are open to dealing anyone and many sources, not just Wolves, have said that Sixers will deal Iverson this summer. I'm giving my opinion and my prediction that he will land on the Timberwolves. I am by no means making it up. All this stuff I have heard from legit sources with the Timberwolves and with the Knicks.

So please, shut the fuck up.

[magius]

Since we're talking about loyalty and respect, why not recall how Shaq called the owner a motherfucker 1 year before demanding a trade?

How about showing your proffesionalism by FINALLY getting into shape when he gets traded to miami yet did nothing to get in shape for the lakers for the last couple of years. What a proffesional!

yes I know what a sorry excuse for a player, averaging 27 ppg, and 10+ rpg while anchoring what was the best defense in the nba during the laker championship years. What an embarassment leading his team to 3 championships and winning 3 final mvp's. the fact is jerry buss showed no respect towards what was far and away his best player. No other superstar in the nba was treated with such nonchalance by their owner. That's disrespect. Was shaq right to call him out in public? maybe not, but that doesn't dissolve buss from fault.

Who exactly jumped ship when Shaq was traded?
Horry left the year before Shaq was traded. So did Mark Madsen.
Derek Fisher wanted to stay but GS offered him the full MLE and now way in hell the lakers will pay him that much.
Gary Payton chose to stay but was traded.
Rick Fox was traded and retired.
Ho Grant was too old to even consider coming back another year.
Karl Malone went hunting for little mexican girls.
Kareem Rush was traded for a second round pick(Turiaf)
Luke Walton resigned. So did Slava.

Who exactly jumped ship? Laughing

yes... what a coincidence that a year after shaq left almost none of the former lakers remained. what a coincidence that gary payton is now in miami..... with shaq. what a coincidence that malone considered unretiring to join.... guess who, shaq. hell the only way buss could get pj back was to whore his daughter out.

how could kobe not have influenced shaq not getting fair market value when he is the reason he left? thats like saying fire didn't influence a house getting burned. imo la is stupid.... shaq could've attracted more than enough players to replace bryant. but you know what? i should be thanking jerry buss and mitch shitforbrains. thank you mitch shitforbrains for trading shaq so i never have to worry about the lakers again

[Donatello]

hell the only way buss could get pj back was to whore his daughter out.

Bwahahahah. Classic.

[Laker Socks]

yes I know what a sorry excuse for a player, averaging 27 ppg, and 10+ rpg while anchoring what was the best defense in the nba during the laker championship years. What an embarassment leading his team to 3 championships and winning 3 final mvp's. the fact is jerry buss showed no respect towards what was far and away his best player. No other superstar in the nba was treated with such nonchalance by their owner. That's disrespect. Was shaq right to call him out in public? maybe not, but that doesn't dissolve buss from fault.

Good job twisting my argument. yeah, Shaq was great for us, no doubt. but you're yet to give a specific instance where the great Dr.Buss disresepected Shaq? Trading him was not disrespectful, if anything he honored Shaq's request. Want more respect? Last time Shaq went to watch a laker game as a member of the heat, the staples played the superman theme song. More respect? No one will ever wear the number 34 again in a lakers jersey.

You can bash Mitch Kupchak all you want, hell i'll even join you. But if you're gonna start calling Dr. Buss disrespectful, at least get your facts straight. Dr. Buss is a class act. He has always been one.

yes... what a coincidence that a year after shaq left almost none of the former lakers remained.

Wow. Why talk about coincidence when I laid out facts for you?
You're still yet to answer my question and that's who exactly jumped ship?
Being traded is not jumping ship.
No way the lakers woud give Fish more than 5 million a year.
GP was traded to ADDRESS a need. He's now in miami because San Antonio and detroit were not interested in him. Hell, GP even considered coming back to LA till the zenmaster was announced head coach.
Karl Malone hunted for little mexican girls and proceeded to retire. He considered playing with Shaq? Uh get your facts straight, he was considering playing for the spurs. Shaq called the mailman but that didnt do anything to change malone's mind.
You're also forgetting that before the "mexican girls" incident, Malone said that he would return only to the lakers or retire. Apparently, he kept his word.

How exactly did those players jumped ship?

Anyways, what a coincidence that none of those players aside from GP are playing with Shaq right now. See how stupid it sounds?

how could kobe not have influenced shaq not getting fair market value when he is the reason he left?

What you just said is an opinion.
Here's a fact: Shaq was the one who demanded a trade. If Shaq did not demand a trade he probably would not have been traded. See how simple it is when you look at the facts? People seem to forget the meaning of the phrase "Trade me"

so i never have to worry about the lakers again

People were saying the same thing this season but look at how easy it was for phoenix to beat us. They didnt worry a bit.

[magius]

Good job twisting my argument. yeah, Shaq was great for us, no doubt. but you're yet to give a specific instance where the great Dr.Buss disresepected Shaq? Trading him was not disrespectful, if anything he honored Shaq's request. Want more respect? Last time Shaq went to watch a laker game as a member of the heat, the staples played the superman theme song. More respect? No one will ever wear the number 34 again in a lakers jersey.

You can bash Mitch Kupchak all you want, hell i'll even join you. But if you're gonna start calling Dr. Buss disrespectful, at least get your facts straight. Dr. Buss is a class act. He has always been one.

I guess you're right that jerry buss is not a disrespectful owner in general, but I for one consider choosing kobe over shaq a great insult and slap to the face.

Wow. Why talk about coincidence when I laid out facts for you?
You're still yet to answer my question and that's who exactly jumped ship?
Being traded is not jumping ship.
No way the lakers woud give Fish more than 5 million a year.
GP was traded to ADDRESS a need. He's now in miami because San Antonio and detroit were not interested in him. Hell, GP even considered coming back to LA till the zenmaster was announced head coach.
Karl Malone hunted for little mexican girls and proceeded to retire. He considered playing with Shaq? Uh get your facts straight, he was considering playing for the spurs. Shaq called the mailman but that didnt do anything to change malone's mind.
You're also forgetting that before the "mexican girls" incident, Malone said that he would return only to the lakers or retire. Apparently, he kept his word.

How exactly did those players jumped ship?

Every single one of those 'reasons' is not a proven fact, just speculation. you want facts? phil jackson - gone. karl malone - gone. gary payton - gone. derek fisher - gone. rick fox - gone. Those are facts. Saying derek fisher would've stayed if la had offered him more money is not a fact. Saying karl malone would've come back to la if he retired is not a fact. Saying gary payton would've played for la is not a fact. Those are hypotheticals. That said, in this case, we're both dealing with primarily hypotheticals, but realize that you believing in your 'reasons' is not sufficient to it being 'factual' or 'true' to anyone but you. i have no problem with arguing reasons, but don't misinterpret your reason as fact.

that said the only laker i can defintely say jumped ship is pj. on the other hand, you can't name one core laker that, without argument, didn't. now let me ask you your honest opinion on something: what do you think would have happenned if kobe had left instead of shaq?

Anyways, what a coincidence that none of those players aside from GP are playing with Shaq right now. See how stupid it sounds?

what relevance is this? its not even a good analogy. We're talking about people leaving la because shaq left. Whether or not they followed shaq to wherever he went is of no consequence. The fact that shaq attracted the likes of gp to follow him as he left speaks even more to his greatness.

What you just said is an opinion.
Here's a fact: Shaq was the one who demanded a trade. If Shaq did not demand a trade he probably would not have been traded. See how simple it is when you look at the facts? People seem to forget the meaning of the phrase "Trade me"

probably?

here's another fact: shaq wanted a new contract. jerry buss said no. if buss had given him the contract he wouldn't have asked to be traded. See how simple it is when you look at the facts?

People were saying the same thing this season but look at how easy it was for phoenix to beat us. They didnt worry a bit.

i'm not worried now.

[Drex]

That's more or less Sixers' decision, don't you think?

Of course it is. I was just saying that because that's the argument that Riot uses when Garnett's name is in trade rumours, but he's drooling about getting AI, who's in almost the same position as KG

[kinokong]

here's another fact: shaq wanted a new contract. jerry buss said no. if buss had given him the contract he wouldn't have asked to be traded. See how simple it is when you look at the facts?

u wanna give a fat man whos spending half the game on the bench with foul trouble due to younger and in better in shape players are blowing by him and averaging 19ppg in the playoffs a 20mil/yr contract?

[Andrew]

I dont mean to be rude but i never mentioned anything about the sixers in my previous post.

I was correcting a misconception that Kobe had anything to do with the lakers getting less from market value.

I realise that. I'm just saying however you want to look at the situation in Los Angeles that led to Shaq's departure, it's different to the one that the Sixers face thus they need not settle for less if they do intend on trading Iverson.

It was not intended to be a swipe at Kobe or the Lakers, just an observation that the Sixers aren't in the same kind of position where they have to make a deal that doesn't benefit them greatly just to get a player out of town, in response to the point Donatello raised about the prospect of trading such an important player and not getting as much as you'd like in return citing the Shaq trade as an example.

[J@3]

get it through your thick skull, Riot. dreaming up a trade scenario is not a rumor. when it rains in minnesota you probably think God is trying to drown Garnett

sorry to interrupt an actual discussion but that's gold.

[Laker Socks]

I guess you're right that jerry buss is not a disrespectful owner in general, but I for one consider choosing kobe over shaq a great insult and slap to the face.

Ah yes. Dr. Buss didnt have to choose anyways if Shaq did not demand a trade. Kobe was the only free agent that season. Shaq was not traded against his will. Heck, Buss even respected his request to be traded to a warm weather city.

Every single one of those 'reasons' is not a proven fact, just speculation.

How is trading a player just a speculation?
The lakers not matching the warriors offer is not speculation either. Fish repeatedly said he wanted to remain a laker for life but the NBA is a business.

phil jackson - gone

You may be right about this one. But he returned anyways.

karl malone - gone

Get your facts straight. Karl malone - retired and never considered playing for the heat and even leaned on returning to the lakers before the "mexican girl" incident.

gary payton - gone

He was traded AGAINST HIS WILL. How is that jumping ship? He was even mad that he was traded.

rick fox - gone

Again, be specific and stick to the facts. He was trade along with Payton and decided to retire. Is still a very visible figure in the lakers org till today.

Those are facts.

Uh yeah they were gone, but why do you refrain from accepting the specific facts? Yes, being traded and retiring is FACT NOT SPECULATION.

Saying derek fisher would've stayed if la had offered him more money is not a fact. Saying karl malone would've come back to la if he retired is not a fact. Saying gary payton would've played for la is not a fact. Those are hypotheticals.

Good job putting a twist to my post again.

Of course, you probably missed the interviews in the offseason with Fish, Malone and you obviously missed Gary Payton not reporting to Boston to take a physical which led to la giving up Marcus Banks and adding a 1st round pick.

Again, how can the aforementioned be hypotheticals when players have made statements?

That said, in this case, we're both dealing with primarily hypotheticals, but realize that you believing in your 'reasons' is not sufficient to it being 'factual' or 'true' to anyone but you. i have no problem with arguing reasons, but don't misinterpret your reason as fact.

No, you're simply refusing to admit you a wrong statement that majority of the players jumped ship. How can a player jump ship when:
a. he was traded
b. got offered a contract higher than his market value
c. retired(this can be arguable but considering Malone made a statement before the mexican girl incident that he would only return to the lakers when he gets healthy and will not play for any other team)

that said the only laker i can defintely say jumped ship is pj. on the other hand, you can't name one core laker that, without argument, didn't.

Ok ok it seems you're admitting to your mistake already.
I cant? Why is it so hard to understand that GP, Fox and Rush were traded. There's no way in hell anyone would consider a traded player as one that jumped ship.

There you go, i named 3. Let me name another core player in the triangle off the bench: Luke Walton.

I could make a case for Brian Cook but he's not worth it.

now let me ask you your honest opinion on something: what do you think would have happenned if kobe had left instead of shaq?

1st year without Kobe: 1st round and out.
PG: Chucky
SG: GULP George
SF: Walton
PF: Mihm
C: Snaq

Yes, that would have been our lineup. You be the judge.

2nd season: Let's assume Snaq will have the same numbers he had with the heat this season. Let's say he also attracts the same FA's he attracted in miami.
PG: Gary Payton
SG: GULP George
SF: Antoine Walker
PF: Mihm
C: Snaq

This team may not even make the playoffs considering Shaq's big decline and no. of games missed.

Hell i even made Mihm a pf just so the lineup would look decent.

what relevance is this? its not even a good analogy. We're talking about people leaving la because shaq left. Whether or not they followed shaq to wherever he went is of no consequence. The fact that shaq attracted the likes of gp to follow him as he left speaks even more to his greatness.

It is as relevant as your previous analogy. Yes, we're talking about people leaving la because Shaq left and the only one you can point out without flaws is Phil Jackson.

Honestly, if Shaq still has the same pull as he had, how come Finley opted to play with San Antonio for less money? How come Malone stayed in retirement? How come Fisher signed with GS when Miami was also ofdering him a contract that offseason?

here's another fact: shaq wanted a new contract. jerry buss said no. if buss had given him the contract he wouldn't have asked to be traded. See how simple it is when you look at the facts?

Get your facts straight.
Shaq was asking for a maximum contract extension AKA 30 million a year and growing.
Dr Buss said no, will you play for slightly less to give us a little flexibility to sign players for the MLE and LLE? Could you help us Shaq?

Shaq whined like a bitch, called Dr. Buss a motherfucker and later demanded a trade to a warm weather city. He got traded to Miami, contract was extended but he resigned for less. See how simple it is when you get your facts straight?

If Shaq was such a class act and wanted to help the lakers, why wouldnt he take a lsight paycut with the lakers? But he took one with miami.

He obviously wanted the lakers to be crippled financially therefore rendering them unable to resign Kobe Bryant and sign other key players to help the organization.

i'm not worried now

You will be soon.