Suns/Knicks trade

[zmac]

I think they could of gotten alot more for Q.
They should have given us Cavs Q and we would have given them Gooden who is better, younger, taller and bigger than Kurt.
And maybe we could have chucked in Scott Williams.....

[kevC]

Terrible, terrible trades for both teams...

[COOLmac©]

^^^ you can say that again

[zmac]

Terrible, terrible trades for both teams...

^^^ you can say that again

Do you mind telling us why you guys think this?

[Colin]

Terrible, terrible trades for both teams...

^^^ you can say that again

Do you mind telling us why you guys think this?

KevC sides with Ben in everything. So I'll just quote Ben.

The only thing Phoenix gets out of this trade is a slight bit of cap relief. (Which won't matter one bit if they sign Joe Johnson to $10+ million a year like they've claimed.)

This trade makes very little sense from a basketball standpoint. Despite all the "analysis" on here.

First we need to disprove some myths. First of all, Kurt Thomas is not a good defensive player. That's not to say Quentin is, but Thomas is as good on defense as I am at appearing to be cool. Look at some defensive measures from last season:
Points Allowed Per Shot Attempt: Kurt - 1.14; Q - 1.03
Points Allowed Per 10 Scoring Opportunities: Kurt - 10.31; Q - 9.52
Points Allowed Per 100 Possessions: Kurt - 83.1; Q - 78.5*

Both of them were below average, but Kurt is even more so. Before we say "well, Kurt just had a down year because of the rest of the Knicks were so bad defensively." That's true, but he hasn't been above average in any of the last three season. (Neither has Q)

The last two seasons:
DPSA: Kurt - 1.05/1.06; Q - 1.06/1.03
DEF: Kurt - 9.64/9.54; Q - 9.72/9.56
DPPS: Kurt - 79.1/74.7; Q - 80.7/78.4*

In any manner, it's a wash between the two defensively. Even if Kurt was a superior defensive player it doesn't matter anyway for one key reason.

The Suns dominated at three positions, C, PF and PG. Since Thomas can't play SG, he won't improve them over Q. Especially once we factor in offense.

This trade's biggest hit is on the offensive end. Thomas takes 89% of his shots as jumpers and 90% of those are assisted. Richardson last season was 77% and 78%. Not only that, but he shot better. (.487 to .455) on jumpers. Richardson scored inside more, and had more dunks than Thomas. He also got to the line three times as well as Thomas.

Not only that but removing a three point shooter for a guy who takes a ton of jumpers will hurt the offense. The Suns offense was so great beacuse you had Nash, two three point bombers, Marion, and then that beast of Amare inside. Thomas clogs up things inside despite his love for the jumper. The Suns proved they didn't need defense to win, they just needed to score like teh crazy. Now Amare doesn't have the inside to himself.

Which leads to another point, Kurt Thomas bounced back on the glass this year thanks to arguably the worst rebounding combo in the league in Marbury-Crawford-Thomas. Thomas traditionally has been worse on the glass than Marion. Now in a lineup with Amare, Kurt, Marion, Johnson, Nash. That's a far superior rebounding lineup than the Knicks. Since Kurt isn't anything great on the offensive glass (compared to Amare and Marion) he doesn't help the offense there either.

More detailed investigation will be needed, but at this point it doesn't look like the upgrade for the Suns this thread gives the impression that it is. Look at some of the comments we've seen:
"Quentin is nothing but problems, an inconsistent shot jacker who want get in the post where he should be. "
Q barely shot more than Thomas did last year, and his newly minted three point shot was a key to the offense.
"And it's not like the Suns can't get that small line-up out there. They still have Jimmy Jackson."
Replacing Q with Jim Jackson makes the team so much worse that saying "they still have Jimmy Jackson" should be used by Suns h8rs.
"Kurt Thomas is a really nice addition to take some pressure off Amare and Marion, who can now play against the smaller guys and dominate them. Not a guy who could've shut down Duncan, but still, a big upgrade defensively."
Again the defensive claim, but the bigger one is how Amare and Marion play smaller guys. Remember when the Suns did this for two years? The key was that big guys didn't have the mobility or speed to handle Amare, and Marion was pulling the big guys out, and he did a fantastic job holding his own on the glass and defensively.
"And let's not forget that Q disappeared during the playoffs."
Marion dropped off just as much as Q. What's ironic is that Q stopped shooting in the playoffs, down to 15.6% of the teams shot attempts from 20.7% during the season. He shot just as well, even better actually. So either Q's problem is he takes too many shots (third on the team by .1 over Johnson during the season) or he doesn't take enough (fifth on the team 4.5% below Marion). Or is it that he doesn't take enough when he doesn't take very many, and he takes too many when he takes about average...

Yes, their lack of defense led to the Spurs crushing them. But Kurt Thomas certainly wouldn't have helped them any in that area and he'd have been a detriment to their offense.

*DPPS is not a very good measure at this point for I don't have league wide averages yet, it has to be done by position because of certain skews at the point guard position.

[Amphatoast]

thats way too deep of a analysis

[maes]

Yes, long analysis but he should keep in mind that the Suns never said Kurt THomas will be starting or getting signfiicant minutes...and it's a loooong time til the trade deadline.

Even without this trade, i strongly suspect the Suns will bring in 1 high caliber player moving Q-Rich to the bench.

As roleplayers on the bench, i'm not sure if Q-Rich will be all that more valuable than Kurt Thomas, considering how short Phoenix is on big men (excepting Paul Shirley, god that he is).

[air gordon]

lol fuck the stats. basketball is not a box score. besides, some of it is taken out of context to further strengthen his points

richardson was guarding the weaker wing scorer while joe johnson took on the better scorer. thomas had the 'opportunity' of playing with the allergic to defense duo of marbury & crawford and also took on the team's better post scorers.

richardson's fg%: >40
thomas " ": 47

richardson has more dunks because the suns run more. sure richardson can score inside but he hardly did it in a set offense since his designated role with the starters was to chuck 3's

thomas will not 'clog' up the lane as his ability to hit outside jumpers (at a good %) is ideal for the pick-n-roll that nash loves to run. also he'll get a lot of open jumpers much like he did when teams collapsed on marbs. the suns offense will survive w/o Q. joe johnson is becoming a beast and is amongst the best in the league in 3pt%

thomas' addition will help on the offensive glass. richardson, traditionally has been a beast on the boards, but he traded that in to be a 3pt chucker. thomas and his respectable career 2.0 Oreb per will be welcome

so what if Q shot more the thomas? thomas is the 5th option behiind marbury, crawford, fugazzi, marbury, and the crawford again. and Q shot a sub par 35% from the 3pt land and >40% from the field

a marion move to SF allows him to revert to being a pest in the passing lanes, making their defense stronger. offensively, he seemed to do quite well when he was a SF back when marbs was there. we'll less likely see players like nazr mohammed pushing marion out of the way for Orebs now...

marion was pretty good in the playoffs up until the spurs series, where bowen put the clamps on him and he couldn't finish well. Q was just crap- he couldn't create shots for himself and when he tried, he was forcing most of the time. half his shots made were 3's lol

anyway, this move isn't earth shattering but it is a step in the right direction for the suns imo.

[zhuzhu]

The trade means Amare will return to PF ,it 's so great !!!!i think if Suns meet Spurs next season,they won't be lilke this year

[Fenix]

I bet Kurt will be coming off bench. Suns are definitely planning something big.

[Jeffx]

PG-Marbury
SG-Crawford
SF-Richardson
PF-Sweetney ( finally !!!!!)
C-Frye or other Random Center.

Yes , decent lineup ... but who is going to anchor the defense? The need a lock-down defender along with a shot blocker, FAST!

Isiah keeps making this team smaller and smaller. This is not the Western Conference! Where'e our size & defense???? So frustrating being a Knicks fan these days.

[J@3]

PG-Marbury
SG-Crawford
SF-Richardson
PF-Sweetney ( finally !!!!!)
C-Frye or other Random Center.

Yes , decent lineup ... but who is going to anchor the defense? The need a lock-down defender along with a shot blocker, FAST!

Isiah keeps making this team smaller and smaller. This is not the Western Conference! Where'e our size & defense???? So frustrating being a Knicks fan these days.

Hey you guys will be in luck if you draft Frye, he's almost 6'10!

[John WB]

I hope that doesn't happen. There is so much better talent available than him with the 8th pick.

[maes]

But not so much in big men, which is what the Knicks need.

[TheFranchiseKing]

No 1 will want to play on this team!!!

Q, Jamal, and Marbury (Idon't have enough respect to call him starbury)
These guys are going to combine for 60 shots a game.

Will anyone else get a shot? They are going to need 3 basketballs to make this work.

[cyanide]

I thought it was a bad trade on Phoenix, but I thought about it, they got 4 guys not named Kurt that can run, and Kurt is always trailing to stop any defenders, and he's the first guy there to rebound anyways. Now they got a great rebounder in Marion and good rebounders in both Thomas and Amare. Looks pretty good, and we'll see if it'll work in the system.

[Colin]

lol fuck the stats. basketball is not a box score. besides, some of it is taken out of context to further strengthen his points
...
thomas will not 'clog' up the lane as his ability to hit outside jumpers (at a good %) is ideal for the pick-n-roll that nash loves to run. also he'll get a lot of open jumpers much like he did when teams collapsed on marbs. the suns offense will survive w/o Q. joe johnson is becoming a beast and is amongst the best in the league in 3pt%
...
a marion move to SF allows him to revert to being a pest in the passing lanes, making their defense stronger. offensively, he seemed to do quite well when he was a SF back when marbs was there. we'll less likely see players like nazr mohammed pushing marion out of the way for Orebs now...

No kidding, good points. The Suns won't be trying to play the exact same style next year without Q and will look to take advantage of what they have like they did this past year. They won't have Marion take as many 3's as Q did or expect Kurt Thomas to throw down alley-oops on the break. Things can change.

[maes]

The more i think about it, the more it makes sense (for the two teams to at least discuss).

They had too many SFs, JJ is naturally a SF as well, he's actually 6' 7" 230 just like Marion. So while Q-Rich for Kurt isn't a blockbuster trade, if Kurt can give Amare 5 minutes of rest, it's probably money better spent than Q-Rich on the bench giving who a break? Jimi Jaxson? JJ & Marion are among the league's endurance marathon runners, these guys don't tire til the 2nd overtime.

[Colin]

But they can't rely on Jim to start. He's getting older. They need to try and find one of those dime-a-dozen athletic 6'5''-6'7'' guys with potential. If they're athletic they have to succeed in the offence.

[maes]

That's my point...Jax won't start in any conceivable scenario.
PG- Nash
SG- JJ
SF- Marion

Q-Rich & Jax would have the same job, come off the bench for JJ/Marion. And of the two, Q-Rich is far more tradeable than Jax.

[Colin]

Oh, my mistake. When you posted "Jimmy Jackson? JJ & Marion..." I thought JJ was referring to Jimmy again. So yea I agree with you.