Yakkety-Yakk, Don't Talk Shaq! (SLAM Magazine)

[J@3]

Never let anyone bully you on a message board

Dude, you're gonna spoil my posting career if you tell them the secrets!

[J@3]

I stand by my statement. Shaq is nuts.

[TRIO DOROBO]

i know that dre. but as for me i dont have capable of entering with an argument with this guy. he show you stats like O'Neal winning % without Kobe and vice versa, and other quotes or file. i'm not that kind of person that know anything about nba. not like JacKol (tagalog word for jerk!ng), that even the color of shaq underwear knows. sometimes he has a point but the way he said that seems like he is the best, the genuis and the person he had argument was like a moron, dumb and useless. and with you taking your stand seems like the table have turns. many people now knew that this jackol was like one of us. he is not god!!! he is not genuis!! he's like as gamers and a member of this forum.

and if you saw the Wolves vs. Spurs thread here in NBA thread (i know that the link i give) you see how he bully Riot in that threads.

heres some of what he post

SO wait, Duncan is better than KG because he had to play all summer long? Duncan's stats stayed almost the same (22.3ppg,12.4rpg compared to the year before 22.3ppg,12.8rpg)

Are you a moron? Inept? Can you not read?

If you can understand/comprehend english, you would see I said:

this post really make me angry and if i can only punch him i will

[b]You people are starting to sound like Kobe fans, disagree that he's not the best atm and you're a hater.

Hehe, didn't I say Riot would mouth off with some non essential bullshit & then just say KG>TD? Ok.

Anyways, since you're a hard headed and not too bright, let me explain it to you in your way.

Get it through your brain RETARD...you're not proving jack shit by using.....

No, you can't say that dipshit.

Again, you make stupid comments

Also i hate that guys coz he told everybody he was a lakers fans but he hate so much the franchise player of Lakers and everytime he talk about Shaq he always brought/bring along kobe and how arrogant kobe was. he is a Miami fans now since his or may i say her bitch was in miami now. also he like lakers to be sucks this season so everybody blame kobe and praise her bitch. be true to yourself Jackol just admit your a miami fans.

[John-John Joe]

The more I know about Kobe and Shaq, the less I like Kobe, and the more I like Shaq. But the more I learn about Shaquille O'Neal himself, the less I like him personally.

Whether you're a Kobe fan, a Shaq fan, a Lakers fan, or a New York Yankees fan... if you've read this article and don't think Shaq's arrogance has gone a little too far or that his fame has gotten to him a little bit too much, you're missing the boat, pure and simple.

Having said that, I personally believe that Shaq has a strange sense of humor, and the things he says are attributed partly to that, so calling Shaq insane etc is probably a bit out of line as well.

And as for Jackal, why the heck does everything about Shaq also have to be about Kobe...? I'd say almost any normal person would find Shaq a bit out-of-whack after reading that. Do you disagree? It has nothing to do with Kobe. Lay off the personal insults, please.

Out of line to state my opinon in a clear and respectful manner, lacking any true personal attacks? All I did was state my opinion, and I don't give a fuck WHAT he thinks about it. Hey, if you don't like the subject, why post?!? To hurl insults and wild assumptions, no, mm-mm. Totally unacceptable.

Ok, maybe calling Shaq insane isn't out of line... but it's lacking logic, lacking a solid foundation, a pretty lame argument, and pretty fucking stupid too.

Hurl insults... to whom? I didn't insult anyone, if you read my post.

Wild assumptions? Care to share which ones I made?

That post wasn't intended for you in anyway... but hey, since you you "didn't like the subject," why did you post?!?

Hi Demil! I think we're having a misunderstanding here:

- Jae said that Shaq sounds insane, not me.

- I wasn't directing those comments to you about hurling insults and not post if you don't like the subject. I was making a point about Jackal and not yourself.

- I should have been more clear with my comments, in no way was my profanity or abrasive manner directed towards you.

- once again, the "wild assumptions" referred to Jackal's comments about me defending and supporting Kobe had he made the same comments.

I hope I clarified and sorry for not being more verbose.

[J@3]

he show you stats like O'Neal winning % without Kobe and vice versa, and other quotes or file.

82Games.com

[John-John Joe]

i know that dre. but as for me i dont have capable of entering with an argument with this guy. he show you stats like O'Neal winning % without Kobe and vice versa, and other quotes or file. i'm not that kind of person that know anything about nba. not like JacKol (tagalog word for jerk!ng), that even the color of shaq underwear knows. sometimes he has a point but the way he said that seems like he is the best, the genuis and the person he had argument was like a moron, dumb and useless. and with you taking your stand seems like the table have turns. many people now knew that this jackol was like one of us. he is not god!!! he is not genuis!! he's like as gamers and a member of this forum.


Also i hate that guys coz he told everybody he was a lakers fans but he hate so much the franchise player of Lakers and everytime he talk about Shaq he always brought/bring along kobe and how arrogant kobe was. he is a Miami fans now since his or may i say her bitch was in miami now. also he like lakers to be sucks this season so everybody blame kobe and praise her bitch. be true to yourself Jackol just admit your a miami fans.

Wussup TRIO! I think Jackal has every right to site the Laker's winning % with Shaq and with Kobe, it's true.

But what he probably fails to understand is that the team was built around Shaquille. As evidenced by having a player like Rober Horry who's best years were spent playing with a dominant center. In Houston with Hakeem and then of course Shaq in L.A. Any surprise that his next team had Timothy the Great?

Or having a player like Fish who can't create his own shot but who's skill is embedded in catch and shoot, and 3 point shooting. Perfect for a big man who draws consistent double teams and will recieve the "kick out".

So to site the Lakers winning % without Shaq is to state the obvious based on the dynamics of the time. KOBE HIMSELF is a piece (albeit a very talented piece) that was brought in by Jerry West for Shaquille.

As his game grew, it became painfully obvious that Kobe has everything it takes to be "the man" as well, so the only true way to judge how Kobe wins or doesn't is to look at the team for the next 5 years and then make an assessment.Because then it will be a team built around his talents as opposed to Shaquille.

Comments like his about Kobe not winning are absolutely ludicrous as well as embedded in basketball ignorance, the boy can't help himself!

[John-John Joe]

Also i hate that guys coz he told everybody he was a lakers fans but he hate so much the franchise player of Lakers and everytime he talk about Shaq he always brought/bring along kobe and how arrogant kobe was. he is a Miami fans now since his or may i say her bitch was in miami now. also he like lakers to be sucks this season so everybody blame kobe and praise her bitch. be true to yourself Jackol just admit your a miami fans.

Oops , almost forgot to address this portion. His attitude that is predicated on the successes and failures of one player as opposed to a team is so very indicative of what is wrong with today's NBA fan and the league itself.

The Michael Jordan era ushered in a new type of fan that supported the player as opposed to the organization. Not to mention David Stern marketing the league with brash individualism at the forefront.

For instance: "Tune in tonight to see Kobe Bryant and the Los Angeles Lakers take on Paul Pierce and the Boston Celtics......." In the 80's it would have been simply Lakers vs. Celtics! As evidenced by the way EA has changed the way they've marketed their NBA videogame.

When it all started in 1989, box art featured TEAMS as oppposed to one star like we have today on Live's covers.

Now, a vast majority of today's NBA fan is more a fan of a player rather than an organization. Iverson, T-Mac, Shaq, whoever. It's pretty sad, really. So i'm not surprised that he's followed Snack to Miami, I hope they're very happy together. Of course, he'll have to share Snack with Shaunie....

Myself on the other hand is a Laker fan through and through and my support for the organization doesn't waiver with personnel moves. I became a fan in the Showtime era of Magic and Kareem, and stayed a fan in the "Slowtime Era" of Sedale Threatt and Terry Teagle. And if Mitch Kupchak traded Kobe tomorrow for Kyle Korver I'd be mad as fuck but would still represent and support the fine lineage and tradition that is the Los Angeles Lakers. It doesn't surprise me in the least that Jackal is a wretched fair-weather fan!

[Jackal]

How's it going Jack? The above quote has to be one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read.

It is? Glad you took all the time to point out all the ridiculous stuff.

- first off, you thank him for being a professional athlete who doesn't do the most rudimentary thing possible? Stay in shape?

It was more to be meant in a funny way, in a stupidish way.

- "it's like watching a movie" that's so indicative of today's fan unfortunately.

Aah yes, the stupid silly fans. Such assholes.

Equating everything in sports to some sort of blockbuster film or a new DVD, what is so entertaining about seeing somebody underachieve and not reach their true potential?

Those DVD's give you entertainment, what does the NBA provide you Dre? Isn't it entertainment? Don't we watch to be amused? Or do you watch for other reasons? Enlighten me as to which reasons, perhaps I can reform myself to be an intelligent NBA person such as yourself.
Underachieving? What? Who brought up anything about underachieving? Shaq reached his potential & played his true potential awhile ago. See 2000. What in heavens name are you talking about not reaching & playing their true potential?

- yes, and now we see the "motivated Shaq" are you surprised? Fellas, NLSC, are any of you surprised? Most superstars are motivated by the will to win and the love of the game. Shaq is motivated by "proving people wrong" and "showing people up." tsk, tsk, so very indicative f his childish ness and misplaced priorities....

Be serious here for a moment, not one of the players on the LA squad had any motivation and/or hunger to win a championship. Not one player. Kobe did his level best this season but go watch the time where LA was knocked off by SA, look at their faces, not one of them had the hunger in their eyes I saw years before. None of them, saying Shaq was the only un-motivated one is crap, none of them were motivated enough.
If you've won your rings, your championships & have been labelled the MDE, would you still be as hungry? As a fan you will say yes, as a professional basketball player you will say yes also but the hunger won't be there. Shaq did not have the hunger to go for another championship, no one did. If they did, they wouldn't have been knocked out. Shaq has gotten motivation once again, the motivation comes in the form of him having to prove himself. He needs to show everyone that he can do pretty well.
In all seriousness, if you were told you cannot do something you are postive you are capable of doing, wouldn't that serve as motivation to go out and do it? I fail to understand how you turned this around, motivation is motivation.

- what this nonsense about who's replaceable or not?

Nonsense? Because you don't like it, it's nonsense? Non-sense? I think it makes alot of sense, if it didn't, I doubt I would have brought it up.

You guys absolutely have to stop acting like one man wins a championship. Never in the history of team sports has this occurred, it takes several factors

What? Where in heavens name did I even imply that one man wins championships? That's not even remotely possible, I wouldn't dare imply that because I know just as well as you do that it's just not possible. Read that part properly, I said Shaq is not replaceable & Kobe is replaceable. That's what I said. This is what you read: Shaq wins it all by himself.
No, I didn't say that. I said Shaq is unreplaceable while Kobe is replaceable. Why did I say that? Because it makes sense to me thus it can not be nonsense as you claim it to be. Nonsense would be if it's untrue, I don't think it's untrue & I'm sure alot of people would support me in this statement. Remove Kobe & put in T-Mac at the two gaurd position. (Leave out any personal issues/attitude problems.) Are you telling me that Shaq & T-Mac couldn't do what Shaq & Kobe have done? Now remove Shaq & put someone in, who? You cannot, Shaq is one of a kind. That's all I said, Shaq is not replaceable whereas Kobe is. I never, never ever ever said anything about one man winning a championship all by himself.

You'd think the way you talk he drew the x's and o's, brought the ball down, took over in the fourth quarter, and ran the popcorn vending machine. Stop buying into media propaganda and cliches designed to raise viewership and sell newspapers, it makes you sound utterly foolish. TEAM sports, not even Mike did it alone!

No, I never said he drew out the plays etc etc. I will say that a genius man as Phil Jackson saw it fit to center his game plan around Shaquille O'Neal, I'm not saying he did everything but he did the most important part. You fail to comprehend the message I am trying to convey, it's the message I've tried to convey since day one, Shaq was the most valuable player on the LA Lakers roster.

Your new name is Stacey Dash because you are absolutely CLUELESS.

Ehm, ok?

- he wasn't getting his ego stroked anymore? Awww, poor Shaq!

Oh grow up and smell the roses. Every player in Shaq's position would've been sore. LA stroked Shaq's ego for all those years, they needed Shaq to be content & they needed Shaq to get Malone & Payton. As soon as they saw Shaq was on the decline they sort of just said, fuck it. We can do without you good sir. In all seriousness, they promised Shaquille O'Neal the world when he was supposed to recruit Malone & Payton. They promised him anything he wanted, Shaq believed in this promise & accordingly recruited Malone & Payton. When all was said & done, Shaq was left high & dry.

FACT: Shaquille recruited Malone and Payton to play for pennies and what does he do? Start screaming at owner Jerry Buss to "pay him" during a pre-season game. No one begged him to do a damn thing Jackie.

Shaq was promised he could have anything he wanted, they would bring him the world on a platter is that is what he asked for. They said all he had to do was get Malone & Payton and they would repay him by doing anything for him. When time came to collect his "payment" which was asking for money, LA refused to fork over the cash. That is what pissed Shaq off, they broke a promise and lied to him. They said he could have anything he wanted, do you understand what anything is? Qualquer cosa? Wat dan ook? Kuch bhi? Loke bo ke? Alla san joe wanni? Jaeta tumi chaw? Anything you want? Anything is ANYTHING. He asked for money, they didn't want to give up that much money. He didn't get the anything he asked them for, isn't this betrayel of the promise made to him? If you were not willing to do anything for him, why use those terms?

- it's Shaq who has been whining about needing help down low for years now. Who do you think went over Jerry West's head to Jerry Buss to recruit Dennis Rodman in 1999? Yup, that's right, "The Big Arrogant Toddler!" oops-I mean, "The Big Aerostotle."

Use your brains for just one moment. Just one. Imagine you are Shaquille O'Neal, every team knows that they will focus their defense on trying to stop you at whatever the cost. The starting center must foul out? The hell with it, just try and stop Shaq. The NBA is a very physical game, Shaq has had his arms slapped so often that abusive parents don't beat their children as often as he's had his arms slapped. After years of being the focus of other teams' defensive scheme, wouldn't you ask for someone to help you out downlow? Wouldn't you want a guy wide open who you can pass the ball to and that person can make the shot? Other teams double & triple team Shaq, wouldn't you want an extra guy out there who has the ability to make the shot and/or grab the rebound while Shaq's being boxed out? Sheesh, teams send two to three guys to try double team him, to box him out. Wouldn't you want someone wide open to just make the shot & swoop in and grab the rebound while all of them are focussing on Shaq?
Shaq knew what he needed for them to be successfull, he asked for it & you make him look like a whiner? When you've been physically abused the way he is day in & day out, then I think you have the right to label him a whiner. He gets banged up every night yet you don't really hear him complaining. Do you understand how physical the game gets? Do you understand how it is to be gaurded by one person let alone two to three? Constant slapping, grabbing & pulling? Sir, in all niceness, you'd also "whine".

- FACT: Shaquille had a grandfathered contract signed before the CBA that made him easily the highest paid player in the league, not to mention the extension he received before the start of the '01-'02 season. Now he was whing for yet another one.

They did say they would give him anything he asked them for, he asked them for the big bucks. They decided he's expendable, not worth the money. Kobe would've been a safer bet.

- FACT: Jerry and Mitch made a significant offer in Jan 2004 that would have made Shaq a Laker until he retired as well as the highest paid player in the league. (Remember, the contract is grandfathered!) Shaq refused because he found out it wasn't the MAX and felt disrespected.

Given he is the most dominant player in the game, I think he deserved the money, especially after being promised anything he asked for. It's about trust, it's about disrespect. It's about him not getting the "anything" they said they would provide him with if he could get them Malone & Payton.

- Who knocked Shaq off of any pedestal? Shaq did, that's who! You're right in saying that you're alot like him, deflecting blame instead of accepting responsibility for one's actions. His own complacency and lack of respect for the organization and his own physical fitness did it. Let's keep it real.

You talk about keeping it real yet you act as if Shaq was being a selfish greedy bastard all by himself, you forget that he was offered the world in return for a favour. Wouldn't you ask for the world if someone said they could give you the world? You would trust them to keep their word, right?
Shaq isn't the only one to blame in this, had the organisation not treated him like God, they wouldn't have had to face the situation they faced. They made the offer, when he came to collect, they turned away. Isn't this disrespectful? Isn't this going back on your word? Isn't this lying?

PART 2 to be continued next post......

Do posts have a limit now? Or did you not want to ruin the layout? We do have edit buttons. Since no one had posted yet, you could've just edited it, what say?

- you stupidity knows no bounds. Bitch?

Stupidity? What stupidity? Saying Shaq is the most dominant player is stupid? Well damn, I'm stupid then.
Saying Shaq isn't replaceable is stupid? Damn, guilty again.

*sigh* I refuse to stoop to your level.....

Yet that is what you have done in every post you've made, you have attacked me with personal insults & degrading comments about my intelligence. To clarify, I am not saying I mind, sheesh...I call myself a fucktard, why in heavens name would I mind one more person joining the club? But saying you won't stoop to my level is kind of a strange thing to say since that's all you've done. Stooped down to my idiotic level.

- cut out that Kobe orchestrated it conspiracy theory. If Kobe supposedly would only resign if Phil and Shaq were gone, why would Jerry make significant offers to both during the season? Phil- 8 million per year shaq- 45 million til 2009

During the season Kobe led them to believe he would be "a Laker for life." Kobe was not a concern of Jerry at that given time, Kobe made it pretty clear he did not wish to play along side Shaq. Had he wanted to play along side Shaq, he would've tried to speak to Shaq & the management.

- applaud him for doing what the fuck he supposed to do? You sound like some guys I know: "I take care of my kids!" Well that's what the fuck you're supposed to do! You want me to give him credit for what he supposed to do?

Yes, since everyone applauds Kobe, Garnett & Duncan for "the fuck their supposed to do", why not applaud Shaq? Kobe has a good season & all you hear are Kobe fans screaming MVP, MVP, MVP. You've got fuckwits coming out of nowhere asking if Kobe will finally prove to be worthy of being compared to Michael Jordan.
If he can be applauded, why not applaud Shaq? Even if it's for whatever the fuck it is he's supposed to do, why do people applaud Kobe? He's just doing what the fuck he's supposed to do.

- you're an asshole you say, that's first thing you've gotten right!

You won't stoop to my level you said? Hehe, just messing, I enjoy you said this one.
I've explained why I do this though, since I'm calling myself an asshole, doesn't give you as much satisfaction as it would've given you had I not called myself an egotistical prick/asshole.

- kobe doesn't get along with teammates. He's not the first and he won' t be the last. Suggested reading material: "the Jordan Rules" by Sam Smith of the Chicago Tribune. His teammates despised him!

Shaq whines alot. He's not the first and he won't be the last. Suggested material, every player in NBA history that has been treated in a good manner.

His team-mates despised him but I'm guessing they eventually managed to work things out, Kobe never even made an attempt.

- kobe's adultery was indicative of unprofessionalism? Hehehehe. imagine that one, an adulterous professional athlete? *GASP* go figure.....

Hehehe. You think by you chuckling & making it sound as if it's the most normal thing in the world, I will doubt myself for what I said? Let me get this straight, from the way you prashed your comment & seemingly laughed at me in quite a mocking fashion, you are saying it's pretty much normal & I should get over it.
It might be normal, but it's not professional. We aren't talking about normal & abnormal, we're talking about professional. I don't give a rats ass as to how normal it is in the sporting world, it's totally unprofessional.
You phrasing it in a manner in which you try to tell me "what the fuck's so abnormal about that", will not make me think it's professional & that it isn't wrong.

- I would have praised kobe had he sounded like a self promoting, excuse making asshole? No, I wouldn't. and who the fuck is "all of you"?

Nopes, you praise Kobe for being a ballhogging asshole & a fist pumping prick. That's heroism today. You wouldn't? Every Kobe fan already does.
All of you would be the Kobe fans I'm referring to, the ones that have declared him to be the next best thing. Wrong, Duncan & Garnett are the next best things compared to Kobe. Hell, I'd even pick McGrady over Kobe.

we've never even spoken to each other until this post! dumbass!

Everytime you call me a name I keep thinking about you saying you won't stoop to my level, hehe...funny shit.

I know we've never spoken before, "dumbass". I was talking about Kobe fans in general, not you specifically. "Dumbass."

- I have no problems citing any athletes indiscrepancies including Kobe.

I have no problems citing any athletes indiscrepancies including Shaquille O'Neal's.
In all due respect, I understand you are a forum veteran I and I am just a n00b, but alot of things have been discussed and alot of stuff as has been said. You can look up my Finals posts & you will clearly voice my opinion about Shaq being lazy on the boards, Shaq not making his freethrows. I've always tried to stay as neutral as possible. Given you've been absent for awhile, I can understand why you would think I am incapable of pointing out Shaq's faults, check any post, I've always tried to say whatever is actually happening, Shaq can be a prick...when he's been a prick I've been one of the first people to say it.

Jackal, you lack the intelligence, common sense, and basketball knowledge to even think about trying to step to me. Your comments are very telling of what kind of fan and man you are. Just plain ignorant!

I guess I should be thankfull for all the attention you have paid me despite me being an ignorant dumbass who lacks any intellligence, common sense & any kind of knowledge. Thanks.

I haven't tried to step or diss you in any way, my posts come off that way since I am quite an asshole ( I think we've established that much ), I have a big mouth & I am an egotistical prick. Don't think I've singled you out in any way, I've got Lanky Man for that. I just voiced my opinions about your opinions, if you took it in a degrading way, welcome to the club. Bah, I'm misundastood. Hehe, enough jokes for now.

BE GONE, POOF! You're not on my level.......

Poof, be gone? What are you Sabrina: The Teenage Bitch?
Don't we all wish life was that simple. Osama, poof be gone. Hmm, I don't think it worked.

Wussup Ampha, I'm sorry he deemed my post as some sort of direct attack or insult as you put it. Had he read it properly he would see that I was merely pointing out an issue that I felt warranted some level of discussion amongst the NLSC community.

I know this post isn't directed towards me but I'd still like to address it since it is about me. I did not deem your post as an attack towards Shaq nor do I think it was meant as an insult. You have your opinions about the situation and I have mine. You say you brought the topic to discuss it, are we not doing that at this moment? Aren't we discussing eachothers opinions? If you had read my post properly you would see I was merely pointing out my opinions about your opinions, I didn't imply you were attacking Shaq and/or insulting him. It's just I come off as an asshole, so yes...I can understand why you say I thought you were insulting and/or attacking Shaq. It's just the way I post.

He then turns it into some sort of personal attack coupled with blatantly racist statements. I'll say whatever the fuck about shaq or any other NBA player I want as it is never my intent to disrespect or put anyone down as it seems to be his....

Again, I could call you a fuckwit for talking shit right out of your anus hole. I'll refrain from doing so given the fact that you are a vet & that you've been away for awhile. My "ape" comments were an issue we discussed awhile ago on the NBALive.org forums, I was using it more in a fashion of how I call myself an asshole, there was someone that called Shaq an ape, so yeah...that's why I said it. It's like how I call Shaq a fat lump of corruption. I am not serious about it, I am using it in a non-serious way. I could get pissed off at you accusing me of racism, but will refrain from doing so since you were never part of those discussions and you would have no possible way of knowing what had been said in those discussions.

But I have no problems calling a spade a spade and I don't give a fuck how he feels.

I feel the same as you, again the issue arises of you being away for a long period of time which has led to the fact that you have not read many of my posts. In every post I have tried to remain neutral. If LA has done bad, I don't only criticize one player since one player doesn't win. The team does, if you find this hard to believe please look at the Finals thread, I took the time to point out who did what properly and who fucked up for every player. Not one player, every player. Other posters just posted about their favorite player & didn't really care about anything else. If you're implying I am incapable of criticizing Shaq, I don't think we should continue discussing these matters, since it's obvious you are basing your opinion of me based on one post. If I have 3000 some posts, there is a minimum of ten to twelve posts in which I have criticized Shaq for being overweight and all his other bad qualities.
But I won't back off from saying he was the most valuable player on the LA roster, nopes...I won't back away from that since that is and will remain a fact.

I appreciate the fact you are attacking my social skills but I'd ask you not to worry about that since that doesn't really have anything to do with the situation at hand.

Jackal all you're missing is the flower pot on your head, unicycle, and funny red nose, you CLOWN!

Heh, he won't stoop to my level.
No, I don't mind you calling me names Dre, I really don't. I've gotten pretty used to it by now, heh...another person is calling me a clown, omfg!11!1 It's the end of the world. Nah, you keep doing what you do best, not stooping to my level.

Yo Dre Naismith- my man how u doin dawg?

Dre, I'd be insulted. An adolecent calling you a dog? What's the world coming to.

I feel ur pain. I can understand that u feeling bad cause I can tell that ur post isn't any attack on Shaq... Jackal needs to actually read and not treat those points as offensive. Dre was only merely pointing out some points about Shaquille. Not paying him out!

I never implied he was, you just basically re-said what had already been said by the person that said it.

- yes and no. The media said so and I believed it but the Lakers then said that Kobe had nothing to do with Phil and Shaq leaving. Phil decided it was time, Shaq wanted to leave...

About Phil leaving, one paticuliar incident comes to mind.
It was during a game in the Finals, I suppose Phil had set up a play & Kobe decided to disregard the play & just kept dribbling till like 10 seconds were left on the shotclock. Take into account this was while they were down by double digits and they were not even in the final stretches. Kobe decided to pull an acrobatic thingie as he tends to do and decided to take the ball inside, he got alot of contact. Instead of him getting the call, which he usually does, he was called for the offensive foul, Phil Jackson took an immediate time-out & just walked towards Kobe with his hands in the air and an expression on his face that clearly said: What the fuck is going on up there? Kobe's response to his coaches antics were a mere wave off.
After being treated in this manner I doubt Phil had any intentions of coaching Kobe for anymore years to come. I can fully understand that part of his decision to leave was because of his bad rapport with the team's future. I'd pack up & leave too. Wouldn't you?

About Shaq leaving, Kobe could've tried to stop it, if he had tried I'm sure Shaq would've said fuck the whole thing let's just play ball. Kobe never tried. He never even made an attempt.

- Wat's wrong with bein happy? Did u see him and Shaq's big grins when they won those rings? Does that mean they don't dislike eachother??? I dont understand how if he smiles cause he got new teammates implies he orchastrated this to become the Man???

You read the grin in a different manner than I did. I read it as a way of saying hell yeah, he's gone. I've got my team. I am the man now.
His grin did not imply that he wanted to be the man, his game & his silence in all the turmoil implied all of this. Did he try to persuade Phil to stay? No, everyone knew they didn't get along. He even called up the Duke Coach. Did he try to talk to Shaq? Ofcourse not, he's being handed the Lakers' whole team on a silver platter, why would he? Kobe has always loved glory and you'd be a fool to say he doesn't, I'm not saying it's wrong but it clarifies why he never tried to stop whatever it was that was happening.

- wtf... u called Shaq fat!

Sit, will you do the world a favour by going to eat shit & dying? In all seriousness, are you a moron or was that an attempt at being funny. If it was an attempt to be funny, it was a very weak one.

- so Shaq to you is some kind of a freak. You enjoy looking at fat people play basketball??? Get a life man!

If I enjoyed watching fat people playing basketball I'd be a Shawn Kemp or an Oliver Miller fan. Please stop pulling shit out of your ass in an attempt to make me look stupid, you just cannot.

- just wanted to point out that satisfaction comes from the bedroom! oh yeah!

This comment goes to show that you are in the early years of your puberty and don't have much on your mind besides sex, sex & sex.
You need some pussy my friend.

- no we wouldnt say Kobe's cool if he says that. Alot of people would call him real cocky!

Alot of people would've said he's cocky & you would've been a knight in shining armor to defend Kobe's honour. You didn't mention you'd call him cocky, you'd probably praise him, you praise him for everything else he's ever done.

- I believe everyone would admire Kobe more for his work ethic. He plays basketball everyday... he treats it as life... therefore treating his day job as his life! sn't this professional???

You want me to admire him for something that's expected of him? Hehe, thanks Dre.

And about him gettign along with his teammates... read the 'Jordan Rules' as Dre suggested... MJ never got along with his teammates!

Go & fuck yourself, quit using his arguments you dipshit.

c'mon y'all... Kobe made a mistake... he admitted it and we dont even know what happened in that room that day. But he said sorry to everyone, the franchise, the fans, his wife and family and the prosecutor. Thats professional... he admitted to what he did in the media. That compared to Shaq saying he was fu*ked up... it's more than what Shaq said!

Oh, admitting to a mistake is professional. What would you call jeapordising his entire career, jeapordising the franchise's future & causing immense shame to his family? Professional? Apologising & admitting he was wrong won't make it professional, no matter how hard you try to convince me otherwise.

I"M OUT LIKE SHAQ'S HEAT OUT DURING THE REGULAR SEASON GAMES AGAINST KOBE!

You're out of you mind just as much as Jack Nicholson was at the end of One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest.

I think that Jackal has problems grasping the the very basic elements of a message board. A place where we come to express our opinions in an open forum that of course will be open to debate.

What have I done untill now? Have I not been open to opinions and open for a debate? Am I not discussing at the moment? If I came off as if I had the sole purpose of insulting you, I apologise. That's how I come off all the time, I didn't single you out in any way. I'm just as open to a debate & discussion as you are. My opinions on your opinions seem to have ticked you off quite a bit but that's what they are, my opinions.

I myself, am a Shaq fan and appreciate everything he's done for the franchise. There's no way we could've been back to back to back champions with out him as our cornerstone.

Yippie, we agree on something.

However, I'm not one to give players a "pass" when I feel there actions deserve introspection and critical analysis whether I'm a fan or not.

Nor am I, see the post I made under your comment where you state you call a spade a spade. I happened not to critisize Shaq about his issues in this thread since I'm still & probably will remain sore about LA trading away Shaq, but I've mentioned it before & I've critisized him about it before.

especially referring to the man he's defending as a "dumb ape". This kind of ignorance is inexcusable and I won't tolerate it.....

I could say I can not tolerate your ignorance about the fact that I used it in the most non serious way, if I have enough time tomorrow, I will look up the thread for you. I won't do it to make you feel silly but I'd just like to make it clear for you and anyone else who's reading my posts about Shaq being an "ape" for the first time that I am not being a racist, I'm using words that have been used by people that dislike Shaq.

Furthermore, I felt he "skimmed" my post as opposed to truly reading and ingesting what I had to say.

Not really, if I had not read your post, I wouldn't have bothered to reply. Note I quoted everything I replied to so that I didn't miss any key elements.

Perhaps he saw Kobe Bryant in my signature and figured he was dealing with a "fanboy".

Nopes, I don't pay attention to signatures, they get repetitive after awhile.

To turn this into yet another Shaq vs. Kobe thread was totally irresponsible on his part and down right idiotic. I'm highly disappointed in the fact that he couldn't engage in a debate deviod of hurling personal insults and ignorant assumptions.

Had I not brought it up, someone else would have done so. I too am highly disappointed at the fact that you could not engage yourself in a debate deviod of hurling personal insults & ignorant assumptions. Heh, I like the way you talk.

This is probably the last time that I post in NBA Talk because frankly I'm disappointed with the level of conversation and respect.

Running away from something will solve the problem? Wouldn't it be wiser to stick around & help us invalides back on track?

I'll just stick to NBA Live related discussions and leave it at that. I didn't post here to have some wretched "Cyber-Thug" hurl racist epithets and call me a "bitch."

Hehe, cyber thug? Me? Of all people? I'm a damn pansy. Bitch is a word I constantly use, you took it in much too much of a serious manner.

I truly do understand the kind of guy he is, one who feels an innate sense of empowerment talking to people in relative anonymity with no risk of repercussion or retribution, A loser in life who becomes somebody when he clicks on his computer, sits in front of his keyboard and becomes the man he wishes he could be in real life.

Gee folks, we've got ourselves a Cyber Dr. Phil. I appreciate the fact you've taken enough interest to analyze my life Dre, but I don't really think it's needed. What I do in real life is of no concern to what happens on these forums. I've made it a point never to feel insulted nor take anything personally on these forums, they are just that...forums. I could tell you about what kind of a "man" (since I'm just 17 with the characteristics of a 5 year old) I am but I won't do so. How will that help in forming an image of what kind of a poster I am? That's of no importance what so ever to me, seems different with you though.

I'm new yet I'm not. I was a member here from '98 until early 2001 and never did I experience something like this. I remember when Shane Hefty (Mr. Shane) and I used to go at it for WEEKS about the Lakers but never did we cross the line and disrespect each other. If anything we GAINED respect for each other because of the level of intelligence in our debates. Jeffx, Gahndi, heck even Tim and I traded a few witty barbs all in the love of basketball.....

Lol, with all due respect but do not underestimate my knowledge that much. I am not a fool & was aware of the fact that you are a seasoned veteran on these forums. I've never insinuated you were a n00b, I read the posts of Shane, I've read alot of posts from the black forums, probably more than any other n00b has. I've done my homework, I respect you for being a veteran but won't refrain from giving my opinions about your opinions. You bringing up the fact that you are a seasoned veteran has no influence on the manner I post, I'm not that type of a person.

If this CLOWN thinks he can insult me and I'll taking it sitting down he's got it all twisted. I won't post here anymore but will gladly come back everyday from here on out to see what he has to say for himself, I run from no man and his knowledge of the dynamics of the NBA as well as appropriate standards of behavior are downright pathetic.

Hehe, you won't stoop to my level. You felt my sole purpose was to insult you, it was not. It's the way I post, if you feel wronged all I can do is say I apologise, I can not say I take back my words or would've phrased my sentances differently, I am outspoken & I do use foul language, that's how I am. I've not singled you out and I've not made it my mission to insult you. You seem to think this is the case, it isn't. This is my behaviour, I apologise for it being pathetic according to you but alas, this is what the forum has had to put up with all this time. I am no trying to be a mafioso of any sort, this is just me.

We're ALL entitled to our opinions as it is a God given right, but we do NOT have the right to speak to others in a condscending manner and throw random insults whenever we see fit. In the immortal words of Arnold Schwarzenegger: "I'll Be Back!" CLOWN!

Yes, it's a God given right. It is also my God given right that I can phrase my sentances in whichever way I feel I need to phrase them. As I've mentioned before you took them as a direct hit on you, it's not. This is the way I speak and this is the way I am, I won't change because you feel targetted, I cannot change who I am.

I'm glad you'll be back, I'm glad you use decent grammar compared to morons who use words like, b for be, dawg and other such things. Your stuff was actually worth making this post, if you hadn't realised it yet, I do respect your opinions & I do respect your posts, I am not saying this because you pwned me in the posts you have made, that's pretty obvious, I am saying this because I do not wish you to think I've targetted you and have a mission to insult you at any opportunity possible, I'm an asshole but I'm not all that bad. If peole think I am, feel free to say it, I'll be gone as soon as possible.

This is the paragraph that really bakes my cookies!

Well good for you Martha Stewart, can I have one of those?

I've never heard anyone refer to Shaquille as dumb or as an ape except for this asshole. In one breath he defends him vehemently and in the next he takes race relations back 400 years. What a jerk!

I'm sorry I wasn't here to address this earlier, but if you've read the post, you'll see I've addressed it already, just scroll up.

Does Shaq have the best communication skills? Most certainly not. But to say that his speech patterns are indicative of a lack of intelligence is downright irresponsible. CLOWN!

:doh:

Oye, did you even read in my first post?

I mean you no harm what-so-ever but I'm getting more and more pissed the more I read this motherfucker's post!

Hehe, wow...getting all worked up about some dipshit's post on an internet forum? I'm a motherfucker?, I'm a clown?, I'm a loser? Alrighty then.

Note how he says "he is treated accordingly." CLOWN!

You just need a reason to say the word Clown.

Jackal loves an argument as much as the rest of us.

Count on Jae for knowing me best. Bitch.

2. Referring to an African-American athlete as "a dumb ape who get's treated accordingly" doesn't fly with me. I'm an intelligent , PROUD black man and I'll be damned if I stand by and let that racist shit ride.

Ugh...

I tried to take the high road but my anger is beginning to boil to the surface, he's has absolutely "no stripes" over here basketball or otherwise! PERIOD.

You need to calm the fuck down, it's a forum. Not a presidential campaign where I called your mom names. Calm down. Breathe in & breathe out. Take out the cookies, they must be burned to a crisp by now.

To be fair I don't think Jackal was trying to be racist. He was just trying to be funny and shit. He is like Shaq, he has a big ass mouth.

I wuv Stoivan.

AND no steven... this is war! lol

Which you contributed jack shit towards, you just felt the need to be involved.

Phew, I really wanted to some it all up in one post but I'm pretty tired, I'll finish off Sit's & Trio Dobobo's posts tomorrow by editing this post. Thanks for the patience.

Edit: It took a few more days than expected, but here I am.

Nicely said Dre... does anyone realise that Shaq never got on well with anyone who he thought would be a threat to his ppg???

I think you are so full of shit.

If he's so concerned about people stealing away his points, would he have gotten along with Malone & Payton? I don't think so. He had a career low average in points per game, yet he seemed to get along fine with them.

Man, he sure seemed concerned about his PPG, man...he sure didn't get along with those two.

This backfired cause Kobe started to rise and turn into a more offensive players and we got the Kobe-Shaq feuds. Shaq's solution? Skip town!

Either you cannot read or you are ignorant. Shaq's reason to leave was the way the LA management disrespected him. Stop fabricating stuff.

Now he's got Wade! Why does he think Wade is good? He only averaged 16 ppg last season and he's young so Shaq can bully him around... convince him into giving him the ball.

I thought I had explained this numerous times before and everyone in their right mind had agreed with me. You need to give Shaq the ball, he shoots 50% from the field for Christ's sake, that's half of everything he takes!! DUH...any normal person would want to give him the ball. He thinks Wade is good because Wade is good. Period. He thinks Wade is good because he's shown he's willing to pass, he's willing to cut & is willing to do whatever it takes to win. His main goal at the moment is winning, he's willing to do alot to win. Bryant's priority seemed to be elsewhere, Bryant's priority was to win, but not at all costs. He had to win. It should've been because of him. He cared about who won more than how they won. He wanted to be the guy, he wanted Shaq to be the second fiddle. Heh, at 50% FG, I wouldn't want a 40 something% shooting guy as my leading man. That's the difference, Wade is willing to do whatever it takes, he doesn't care WHO wins, he cares about winning, at whatever cost. The best option ofcourse being for him to pass the ball to Shaq instead of trying to dominate everything one on one. That's why he likes Wade.
You say Shaq likes Wade because he can bully him around to pass him the ball? Ehm, didn't Riley bring Shaq into town saying the ball will touch his hand on every possession? How is Shaq doing any sort of bullying? Where do you come up with your theories from?

I know wat Shaq's scared of... anyone capable of putting up 20 ppg at least which means less shots for him! I only wish to see MJ and Shaq together... what Shaq would do to get rid of MJ....

Malone & Payton were both capable of scoring 20 a piece. Ofcourse that's not what happened, but it goes to show Shaq isn't afraid of a co-player. He just feels he should be the focal point of the offense. I whole heartedly agree with that, look at Shaq. His size only requires defensive attention. It's not about his scoring average, get it through your brain, it's about being able to do what you do best, dominate. If you don't have the ball, you can't dominate. MJ & Shaq would've worked wonders imho, Michael was a smart enough player to know that Shaq would have been his greatest strength. With MJ it wasn't about WHO was winning, it was about winning period. MJ would've utilized Shaq in ways Shaq felt he's the shiznit & MJ would've had his satisfaction by winning & just dominating on the perimeter.

MJ would've used Shaq in ways Kobe can't even dream of, that's just how much smarter MJ is than Kobe will ever be.

Wait till Wade scores 20 ppg- oh Shaq will cause a huge rift in the media!

All those seasons Kobe & Shaq got along just fine despite the little feuds. They managed to work together on the court. Had Shaq not asked for a trade due to what LA management did, Shaq & Kobe would've played together just as they had the other years, ofcourse the feud was escalating, but they knew they had to play together. Finally it just became too much I suppose.

Shaq won't make an issue about Wade, as long as Shaq is the focal point. That is what Riley told him. Shaq isn't as selfish as you make him out to be, Shaq knows how they win best, get double teamed & pass it out. He's always used this & this is the reason LA surrounded him with 3 point shooters. If Shaq was concerned about his PPG as much as you imply he is, he would never have passed and tried to just bang through double teams as Kobe does quite often.

finally i saw a person to say anything this Shaq's whore (Jackal) dont want to see.

Ofcourse you're happy, you never had the balls or the logic to have a discussion without spitting out insults. Dre has done something you could never do. He had the balls to say what was on his mind + formulate it in such a way that we could actually discuss. You sit here bitching about how you're so proud someone finally said something to me is simply because you just never had the balls to do anything remotely close to what he did.
"Heh, I'm so happy someone said something to Shaq's whore", yeah....good for you."

Heh, I'm so happy this guy never had the balls to say something to me.

he always want everybody believe shaq was the greatest, the most love person any thread in this forum and how arrogant and selfish kobe was.

Greatest? Shaq's name isn't Michael Jordan nor is it Wilt Chamberlain. Greatest? Have I said that anywhere?
Most loved person? What? I've called him an asshole for his derogatory comments towards the Kings despite the fact that I hate them. Why would I ask anyone to love him? In every thread? Yeah, it's like when Kobe fans talk about Kobe 24/7. "T-Mac scored 60" Kobe fan: Kobe could do better.

You're accusing me of pointing out how selfish & arrogant Kobe is. Have you ever thought why I would bring it into my head to make such accusations? Have you ever thought of the possibility that its...omg..true? :O

You have nicely summed up the way I post, unfortunately that's your perspective. I am not a Kobe Hater, I've repeatedly said I like him & his game alot.

I've also praised Kobe and dissed Shaq, why didn't you mention that? Please, stop saying I am a narrow minded person, I am not. I try to give credit where due. I am harder on Kobe because he IS an arrogant & selfish person, I'm not fabricating it. Just because you don't like hearing it, means I'm lying? Pff...

and also whinning of the fact lakers picked kobe over this jackal-f*cker fatso

Ofcourse I'd be pissed, it's logical you jackass (since you cannot refrain from namecalling I shall be forced to stoop to your level, I am an asshole after all.) Ofcourse I'll be pissed they chose 40something FG % over 50 FG%, ofcourse I'll be pissed LA has no chance of title contention for awhile now, duh I'll be pissed you dipshit. Why wouldn't I be pissed? Any type of glory that was remotely achievable has been demolished now, only a cunt such as yourself would not be pissed.

Again, if you can call names, so can I.

so thanks to you dre and also to sit for making this loser know the real truth that his bitch ha an uglier personality that kobe.

Summed up: You are thanking Dre for having balls. (Sit isn't worthy of a thank you since he just copied everything Dre said & formulated it in another way.)

Woohoo, thanks to other people for having the balls to say something I could never do. Ooh, I'm such a pussy, yay!

[cklitsie]

jackal should write a book

[John-John Joe]

Hi Jackal, wow, that was quite a read and I must say I've gained alot of respect for you in the process:

PERSONAL

- regardless of "how you talk" it's not cool to refer to people as bitch and not expect some sort of negative reaction. And to say you don't care is foolish, you expect the same respect others demand of you.

- I now understand that you were referencing an earlier thread with the derogatory remarks about Shaq, I suggest you think heavily about avoiding this in the future.Tthere's no need to perpetuate racist remarks whether you made them originally or not. This made your post take on a completely different dynamic to an African-American, so no, I'm not a "fuckwit" for getting offended. Cut the bullshit.

- as far as saying "your stupidity knows no bounds" was directly referring to you calling me a bitch. A remark I find highly offensive and totally unnessary for an intelligent (your recent post has proven you in fact are) person to use to drive a point home.

- constant referencing of my remark "I won't stoop to your level" made me laugh as you used it with each insult that got progressively worse. My anger got the best of me as I stewed over you inflammatory remarks and I let loose on you. I apologize for MY immaturity where that is concerned, I kept picturing this redneck with a confederate flag for a screen saver and attacked you.

- Dr. Phil? Martha Stewart? You got me good both times! Classics.

- once again, you fail to realize the danger in grouping people together. I'm NOT a Kobe fan, I'm a Laker fan. For you to say "that's how we are" is just plain silly. You don't know where I stand on several issues concerning Kobe and don't have the right to make immaterial assumptions based on others you've encountered. It's just plain illogical, wouldn't you agree?

- my "I'm not posting here anymore". Running? No, never. I felt that the level of conversation was completely unbearable and there was no use coming here if only to "flame" and not talk basketball. I can joke just as much as the next guy but I hold respecting people through speech in high regard (though you wouldn't know it from all the terrible things I called you, I can't apologize enough Jackal).

BASKETBALL

- equating Kobe's adultery to unprofessionalism is downright ridiculous. I'm not here to excuse that kid for doing something that was immoral and foolish but for you to say it was unprofessional is silly. Face it Jackal, these professional athletes are notorious cheaters. Are they ALL unprofessional as you put it? To bring his rape case into the equation was both irrelevant and unjust.

He does in fact exhibit the characteristics of being the consumate professional by working on his game in the off season and coming back with new skills season after season. From developing his mid range game to improving on the ball defense and most importantly never deflecting blame or making excuses. Shaq COULD in fact learn something from him in that regard.

Unfortunately Kobe's vision of what makes a superstar is somewhat warped and he falls into these selfish spells that makes me want to strangle him. Shaq has never shown me to be a selfish person on the court (accept for insinuating with his "dog guarding the yard" analogy that he wasn't going to play defense if he didn't get more touches) but his refusal to get the surgery before Sept. 11th, get his behind in shape, irrational financial demands and vehement attacks placed upon Penny and then Kobe through the media exhibits his off the court selfishness.

- Promises to Shaq? Malarkey. For Shaq to want to use up the whole cap to feed his tremendous ego is abhorrable, why not take less to have more talent around you?

- the fans who need entertainment? One of my biggest pet peeves with today's game. Don't be silly, of course the NBA and basketball is for the purpose of entertainment but now there is too much focus on things that don't have to do with the game. Such as this obsession some fans have with Big Ben's Afro. Who cares? Why do we need bells and whistles to make such a beautiful and engaging game interesting?

- underachieving Shaq? MOST definitely. For someone of his greatness to only have 1 MVP award is disgusting. Shaq should have 3 or 4 by now if he had the work ethic and the desire to do so. You brought up 2000 Shaq, I totally agree but that was one season. He hasn't reached his true potential in my eyes because the Big Fella is capable of so much more and to see him now get in shape after leaving LA is a slap in the face. He played out of shape for three years straight and that's disgusting.

- to blame Shaq's lack of hunger by being labeled the most dominant makes no sense to me. If he is "The General" as he referred to himself as then you are a leader of men. Shouldn't Shaq be setting the example as the franchise player?

Why do you think we had the personality of a team who slept through the regular season and attempted to "turn it on" in the post season? The team takes on the personality of their leader, that's why. Shaq treated the regular season like some sort of part time job and that's straight up unacceptable.

- To say that Kobe was "replaceable" is crazy. Name me one perimeter player in the league who's gotten it done under pressure as much as Kobe has. Tracy? Vince? Iverson? The fact is that they BOTH were instrumental in our winning three championships, not just Shaq. And to say you could have just "plugged in" another player and won is ludicrous, what has Shaq won without Kobe? The only way for me to concede to you on this point is for Shaq to bring the Larry O'Brien to South Beach, I guess we'll soon find out huh?

- I don't think Phil was a genius for centering the team around Shaq it was simply inevitable. Wherever Shaq goes he'll be the centerpiece.

- as far as the organization promising Shaq a max extension for "recruiting" Karl and Gary, give me proof. I've NEVER heard of such a promise Jackal, ever. Being offered $45,000,000 is considered being left "high and dry???" After he already signed an extension in 2000?

- spare me the semantics of Shaq being fouled so viciously and thats why he wanted Rodman. I understand all of the things you pointed out about him getting beaten up, it's disgusting, I agree. But for him to go over Jerry West's head when Jerry was DEAD SET against Rodman was foul. Then look at what happened! Rodman was a complete nightmare for us.....

- you feel that he deserved the money? I don't. It would have been great for him to set aside his ego just once for the sake of the organization, but he wouldn't do that would he? And don't you think him taking less money would allow us to get him that help down low he truly deserved instead of dudes like Samaki Walker?

- Kobe did indeed say that he wanted to be a Laker for life, so what? Kobe pissed me off with his conflicting comments last season no doubt. But you still fail to see that if management in any shape way or form thought he wouldn't resign if Phil and Shaq remained aboard why would they make lucrative offers to both? Jerry Buss is a smart business man, he wouldn't have done so with out giving it great thought.

- why not applaud Shaq? Jackal, spare me brother. He's get more than his share of "applause" unfortunately he's a big man like Kareem who went through the same thing with Magic. People find it easier to root for David than Goliath. I agree that it is highly unfortunate. Besides, Shaq does a good enough job patting himself on the back to more than make up for it.

- my reference to the Jordan Rules and your retort? Read the book and then get back to me, don't speculate on Jordan's relationship with his teammates. He was anything BUT the consumate teammate, perhaps I'll make a post about it but I'd have to be prepared to face the wrath of the entire NLSC if I did so! Seriously Jackal, read that book you won't be sorry!

- whoa! "praising Kobe for being a ballhogging prick and a fist pumping asshole." NEVER. And I agree on your assessment of him on both accounts, those are my biggest issues with him. But since this post is about Shaq perhaps I'll share and get more into depth with those views at a later date.

- McBaby over Kobe? Yet another excuse maker? In 2001 when he lost to the Hornets he actually had the nerve to say "Baron has more help." Or who can forget the classic when up on the Pistons 3 games to 1 "I'm looking to the next round." Only to lose THREE STRAIGHT. How about his comtemplating retirement last year because he felt the zone defenses were too tough?

- I'm glad you don't make excuses for your favorite players and you're right I would have no way of knowing just coming back here. I apologize once again for my speculation in that regard, but your weak and irrational defense of Shaquille suggested otherwise.

- Kobe not listening to Phil. DISGUSTING, I agree 100% He frustrated me with those selfish bone-headed plays where he tried to take on the whole team. Inexcusable and poor execution of the basic fundamentals of the game of basketball, the one thing I agreed with Shaq on when it came to the Kobester. Still, let's not ignore the fact that Shaq is no angel either. For him to not listen to Phil and Tex about developing an outside shot and working more on his freethrows is equally inexcusable (Phil Jackson's book "Mindgames" is my reference point, another solid read) he even threw a mini tantrum and wouldn't talk to Tex for weeks!

- Kobe stopping the departure of Shaq? Why would he? He cited exactly how he felt about Shaq and I agree 100%. Lazy, unprofessional and every other adjective were all warranted in my book. The problem was him saying it to the media like an asshole. Both of them pissed me off in regards to keeping Laker business in house, I never knew a thing about Kareem and Magics problems as a kid.

All in all, I think we definitely got off on the wrong foot (ya think dre? ) but bottom line I now understand where you are coming from. Sure you disagree with my points and I disagree with alot of yours but that's all gravy. I'd never expect anyone to bow down to me or my opinions and I can honestly say that I respect your knowledge as a fan and where you come from with your theories.

I'd love to continue debating any issues with you as long as it doesn't deteriorate into petty name calling or disrespect. ESPECIALLY when it comes to the word "bitch". You're an alright dude Jackal and I can't begin to apologize enough for my namecalling, it's not my style. Peace, Dre.

[-BHZMAFIA-]

Wow! looks like we have 2 nominees for the longest post by hand in NLSC history

[Amphatoast]

Wow! looks like we have 2 nominees for the longest post by hand in NLSC history

lol i was going to say that too..i think i'm going to read a chapter in my chemistry textbook since it looks like its going to take less time to read lol

btw i just did a word count on Jackal post (includes quotes) and it was a total of 6,657 words and more coming

[magius]

well dre, i think jackal's original post was just a case of pent-up frustration and downright plain reflex. Earlier this year there was thing called the "kobe thread" you see, and we tried to explain to kobe fans why kobe isnt "the mvp" or "the next mj" or "the go-to laker", we tried to explain that kobe is among the great players in this league, but by no means the greatest, and that his game is an imitation n of mj fallen short.

there were a couple of intelligent replies, but there were also a lot of things like this: "whooohooo!1111111!! kobe! 45 points last night! MVP! did you see that? OMG OMG OMG", followed by a poor shooting night in which they would call anyone who mentioned it a "hater".

i'm not saying everyone does/did this, but as you might understand, just once gets under the skin.

Anyway, i am referring to this, because I think anyone who see's it as it is would be slightly annoyed that there exists so much blind love for someone who's not even the most valuable in the league, or his teams, and yet such blind incoherent criticsm towards shaq. Calling shaq fat and untalented is unexceptable, a lot of people say kobe's more "talented", but really, how many 7 foot 300 + pound men in the world have you seen with the footwork, touch, and bball iq of shaq? Just because he's big, it doesnt mean he's not talented, in fact, he could be even MORE talented, considering he finds a way to do the things he does despite his size. Being just big doesn't cut it, if that were so shawn kemp, oliver miller, diop, and eddy curry would/would've been the next big things. Calling shaq unmotivated and lazy is disrespectful imo considering the said "lazy" individual has career averages of 27.1 ppgs and 12 rpgs. Has shaq made some questionable decisions? maybe, but then again, we don't know the whole story, and even if so, i don't know if i can call three championships, and three playoff mvps underachieveing..... might he have done more? maybe, but that is presumption, I could just as easily say he could've done less.

kobe is not professional in terms of his off-court persona, kobe is artificial. His press statements are pre-rehearsed (you might call that professional, to say what you're supposed to, but I don't. Difference of opinion i guess). ), and if you've forgotten, I can find you plenty of insults from kobe hurled towards shaq. I'm not saying shaqs off court persona is proffesional, he says stupid things, but at least he doesn't PRETEND or try to look professional and for that I respect him. In terms of his (kobes) proffesionalism towards basketball, from the outside looking in it seems true, that he does work harder than shaq, but then again, that could just as easily be good pr. I don't think shaq cares what anyone thinks he does or doesnt do and thus could care less about molding his image, while kobe is the exact opposite from what i've seen, though of course I really dont know, but its my opinion nevertheless. There are so many factors we have no way of knowing when judging intangibles such as "heart", "work ethic", "leadership", "proffessionalism", what do these mean? All i can say is look at the numbers, look at the championships, look at who won the playoff mvp in every one of those championships (unlike kareem-magic, isiah-dumars. equally great players split those accolades. shaq and kobe are NOT equal), look at the numbers. This is not the resume of a unproffesional man, this is not the resume of one with no "heart" or "work ethic". To judge said things, by the way the media portrays said person rather than the end product is like having never ever eaten chocalate and then telling your friend how much it sucks because someone else told you so. Start reading between the lines, the feats accomplished by shaq for the lakers were no easy tasks, and the way in which he accomplished those ON THE COURT prove he's not just some lazy fat barf.

In respone to something earlier, Shaq does not "demand" the ball so he can "have his shots". He demands the ball, because the more he gets it the more likely his team will win, he doesnt shoot it everytime, in fact considering his talent, he is a very unselfish superstar on the court, he understands inside out and tries to get his teams to buy into it. FYI, shaq only averaged 14 shots per last year. Over his career he has averaged 18.6 shots per. His shot percentage is .577. These are not ballhog numbers. Shaq dislikes big headed guards because big headed guards detract from a system that works, keep it simple.

[J@3]

I know this isn't a Kobe thread but he seems to get mentioned alot, so.. I'm getting pretty sick of people just blatantly disrespecting him. I mean sure he's a fuckin idiot, and sure if he could've kept his ego in check and worked with Shaq the Lakers would be defending champions and Detroits fan base wouldn't have multiplied over night. The fact remains, Kobe is by far and away the best player left on the Lakers roster. He's the guy who's going to win the championships (if they get there), and he's also the guy who'll be carrying this team on his back all season. I just think that Laker fans should stop being so bitter and angry about the Shaq trade and start giving more respect to the best player on their team. It's been ages now since Shaq was traded, why does everyone have to keep looking back at that and complaining about it? Ok so LA could've got alot more for Shaq, but they didn't. Get over it. Lamar Odom was fantastic at the Olympics, Caron Butler was considered a future all-star just 2 seasons ago and Brian Grant has a franchise killing salary...er... ignore that. Either way, look to the future instead of always looking at the past. If you don't do that, you'll end up like a Bulls fan who refuses to believe the 1996 season is over.

If I enjoyed watching fat people playing basketball I'd be a Shawn Kemp or an Oliver Miller fan.

O's got silky skills yo

[John-John Joe]

well dre, i think jackal's original post was just a case of pent-up frustration and downright plain reflex. Earlier this year there was thing called the "kobe thread" you see, and we tried to explain to kobe fans why kobe isnt "the mvp" or "the next mj" or "the go-to laker", we tried to explain that kobe is among the great players in this league, but by no means the greatest, and that his game is an imitation n of mj fallen short.

there were a couple of intelligent replies, but there were also a lot of things like this: "whooohooo!1111111!! kobe! 45 points last night! MVP! did you see that? OMG OMG OMG", followed by a poor shooting night in which they would call anyone who mentioned it a "hater".

i'm not saying everyone does/did this, but as you might understand, just once gets under the skin.

Anyway, i am referring to this, because I think anyone who see's it as it is would be slightly annoyed that there exists so much blind love for someone who's not even the most valuable in the league, or his teams, and yet such blind incoherent criticsm towards shaq. Calling shaq fat and untalented is unexceptable, a lot of people say kobe's more "talented", but really, how many 7 foot 300 + pound men in the world have you seen with the footwork, touch, and bball iq of shaq? Just because he's big, it doesnt mean he's not talented, in fact, he could be even MORE talented, considering he finds a way to do the things he does despite his size. Being just big doesn't cut it, if that were so shawn kemp, oliver miller, diop, and eddy curry would/would've been the next big things. Calling shaq unmotivated and lazy is disrespectful imo considering the said "lazy" individual has career averages of 27.1 ppgs and 12 rpgs. Has shaq made some questionable decisions? maybe, but then again, we don't know the whole story, and even if so, i don't know if i can call three championships, and three playoff mvps underachieveing..... might he have done more? maybe, but that is presumption, I could just as easily say he could've done less.

kobe is not professional in terms of his off-court persona, kobe is artificial. His press statements are pre-rehearsed (you might call that professional, to say what you're supposed to, but I don't. Difference of opinion i guess). ), and if you've forgotten, I can find you plenty of insults from kobe hurled towards shaq. I'm not saying shaqs off court persona is proffesional, he says stupid things, but at least he doesn't PRETEND or try to look professional and for that I respect him. In terms of his (kobes) proffesionalism towards basketball, from the outside looking in it seems true, that he does work harder than shaq, but then again, that could just as easily be good pr. I don't think shaq cares what anyone thinks he does or doesnt do and thus could care less about molding his image, while kobe is the exact opposite from what i've seen, though of course I really dont know, but its my opinion nevertheless. There are so many factors we have no way of knowing when judging intangibles such as "heart", "work ethic", "leadership", "proffessionalism", what do these mean? All i can say is look at the numbers, look at the championships, look at who won the playoff mvp in every one of those championships (unlike kareem-magic, isiah-dumars. equally great players split those accolades. shaq and kobe are NOT equal), look at the numbers. This is not the resume of a unproffesional man, this is not the resume of one with no "heart" or "work ethic". To judge said things, by the way the media portrays said person rather than the end product is like having never ever eaten chocalate and then telling your friend how much it sucks because someone else told you so. Start reading between the lines, the feats accomplished by shaq for the lakers were no easy tasks, and the way in which he accomplished those ON THE COURT prove he's not just some lazy fat barf.

In respone to something earlier, Shaq does not "demand" the ball so he can "have his shots". He demands the ball, because the more he gets it the more likely his team will win, he doesnt shoot it everytime, in fact considering his talent, he is a very unselfish superstar on the court, he understands inside out and tries to get his teams to buy into it. FYI, shaq only averaged 14 shots per last year. Over his career he has averaged 18.6 shots per. His shot percentage is .577. These are not ballhog numbers. Shaq dislikes big headed guards because big headed guards detract from a system that works, keep it simple.

Excellent post magius. I agree with alot of your points made, here's what I think:

- I now understand totally why Jack came at me kind of hard. Based on the title of my post as well as the content he assumed this was another Kobe fan taking shots at the Big Fella.

Perhaps I'm just different in this regard, I don't "ride" with any particular player because at the end of the day the uniform is always bigger than one individual. I've read my share of Shaq vs. Kobe threads and they're usually unbelievably biased diatribes lacking any true merit. Am I a fan of Kobe Bryant? Yes, I am. But I don't take my admiration for his game and then use it as a vehicle to have unrealistic ideas about who or what he is, I'm all about keeping it real.

- Is Kobe fake? YUP. Sometimes his interviews can be downright painful, like he is auditioning for a role called "I'm the face of the league, love me." I wish he'd just be himself and not worry about public perception.

- Is Kobe an MJ wannabe? No. While some similarities are clearly present I honestly don't believe he goes out of his way to act, talk or play like Mike. Now mind you, I'm not saying that MJ hasn't influenced his game. but in my eyes not any more than it has McGrady, Vince, LeBron, Iverson, etc. etc. etc. Face it, for better or for worse (WORSE in my eyes but we'll discuss that some other time) MJ is the blueprint for today's NBA. How I wish it was Magic or Bird instead! I think where Kobe digs his own grave is in regards to having MJ like interviews devoid of any real human qualities that he's never able to pull off effectively like Mike did. And the fact that he can really be an arrogant asshole!

- Hehehehe, yeah, I know Kobe fans can get under the skin of most. Often I find the vast majority of Kobe fans lack any true understanding of the game and will never give him the criticism he sometimes rightfully deserves only comments like you eluded to in your post. It's pretty sad really.

- anyone who calls Shaq untalented doesn't know the game and needs to be tarred and feathered while forced to watch "Gigli" over and over until they puke. I go into shutoff mode when I hear a fan say nonsense like that.

- fat? YES, and he deserves every negative comment about this that he receives. There is simply no excuse for showing up out of shape three years in a row. And please don't fool yourself and say it hasn't affected him on the court. He was noticeably slower and lethargic and it most certainly affected his play.

I absolutely wanted to cut off his air supply everytime I saw him getting beat down the floor, beat on the boards by Ben and getting stripped of the rock before he had a chance to make a move in last years Finals. I kept thinking, he's making Ben look better than he is! No way he's even CLOSE to your level Shaq! You fat bastard!

- to say that a fan shouldn't call him lazy and unmotivated (which he most certainly was and even admitted so in the interview in this thread, thoguh in not so many words) because of his career numbers is absolutely absurd. the same criticism that you have of Kobe fans is EXACTLY what you're doing right there.

- Kobe working hard on his game is just for good PR? C'mon mags, give the man his due. GEESH. That's just bananas, BANANAS.

- as far as saying who won Finals MVP, you're right but keep it real. Before last season the REAL Finals was the WCF and Kobe was the one that came through in that regard, every year.

I refuse to choose sides even though I prefer Kobe as a player. Anyone who says that Kobe is better than Shaq needs to stop playing so much NBA Live and start watching more basketball, that's just plain ridiculous. Basketball is a big man's game period and that's something Kobe and a legion of his fans have yet to grasp.

I won't make excuses for either, but NO ONE can tell me that it is ok for a player to treat his craft like some part time job. A MAJOR crime in my book, not giving it your full effort. To defend something like that is unreal, unreal. One thing I'll give Bean, he has never cheated himself, the fans, or the organiztion in the effort department. Can you honestly say that about the Shaqmeister???......

[John-John Joe]

I know this isn't a Kobe thread but he seems to get mentioned alot, so.. I'm getting pretty sick of people just blatantly disrespecting him. I mean sure he's a fuckin idiot, and sure if he could've kept his ego in check and worked with Shaq the Lakers would be defending champions and Detroits fan base wouldn't have multiplied over night. The fact remains, Kobe is by far and away the best player left on the Lakers roster. He's the guy who's going to win the championships (if they get there), and he's also the guy who'll be carrying this team on his back all season. I just think that Laker fans should stop being so bitter and angry about the Shaq trade and start giving more respect to the best player on their team. It's been ages now since Shaq was traded, why does everyone have to keep looking back at that and complaining about it? Ok so LA could've got alot more for Shaq, but they didn't. Get over it. Lamar Odom was fantastic at the Olympics, Caron Butler was considered a future all-star just 2 seasons ago and Brian Grant has a franchise killing salary...er... ignore that. Either way, look to the future instead of always looking at the past. If you don't do that, you'll end up like a Bulls fan who refuses to believe the 1996 season is over.

[The Game]

[Matt]

maybe we should impose a character limit in this thread

[magius]

Never once do they question the character of an athlete who gets in shape only when he wants to "prove something", that's just a lack of professionalism.

to a degree i disagree with this statement. I think it would be a lack of proffesionalism if and only if shaq hadn't proven anything beforehand. I think it is the basic human nature of ALL competitive, proffesinal athletes to get into shape/give it their all only when they have "something to prove". Proving something is one of if not the main things sport is about, and what proffessional sport is based upon; The reason professional bball exists is to compete and to win, the purpose of the player is to prove he can help his team win. To say an athlete who gets into shape only when he wants to prove something is unprofessional contradicts what professional sport is about. Mj burned out and retired for a couple of years because he had nothing left to prove, it happens to everyone. Maybe shaq shouldve worked harder after he had reached the epitomes of his sport and had achieved basically all his goals, but I think it is unreaasonable to expect that from anyone. Magic and Bird were lucky because they continually had something to prove, same with Wilt and Russell to a degree. MJ burned out, retired, heard the cat calls, bam, something to prove. The players are only human.

Why does kobe work hard?? Because he's not and has never been the best player in the league. Because he doesnt have a mvp. Because he doesnt have a championship mvp.

Because he has plenty left to prove.

- fat? YES, and he deserves every negative comment about this that he receives. There is simply no excuse for showing up out of shape three years in a row. And please don't fool yourself and say it hasn't affected him on the court. He was noticeably slower and lethargic and it most certainly affected his play.

I absolutely wanted to cut off his air supply everytime I saw him getting beat down the floor, beat on the boards by Ben and getting stripped of the rock before he had a chance to make a move in last years Finals. I kept thinking, he's making Ben look better than he is! No way he's even CLOSE to your level Shaq! You fat bastard!

Point proven. He was fat.

- to say that a fan shouldn't call him lazy and unmotivated (which he most certainly was and even admitted so in the interview in this thread, thoguh in not so many words) because of his career numbers is absolutely absurd. the same criticism that you have of Kobe fans is EXACTLY what you're doing right there.

I disagree. I don't know how i am doing what kobe fans are doing considering shaqs career numbers are vastly superior, and his accolades/resume much more complete and convincing. You have persuaded me to admit that the last couple of years he has been lazy and unmotivated and FAT , but over a career, I think it is unfair to say such about a much accomplished player. Is it fair of me to say that mj would not've been the greatest guard ever if he had played against the likes of tmac/kobe, based on the latter years of his career in washington?

- Kobe working hard on his game is just for good PR? C'mon mags, give the man his due. GEESH. That's just bananas, BANANAS.

mmmmmm..... banaaaaanaaaaas.........

um, anyway, I didnt say it was just good for PR. I said, who knows, maybe its just that kobe likes to publicize his off court affairs more than shaq does, and so since shaq doesnt work on his pr in that respect and kobe does, shaq gets none, kobe gets all, and thus we very logically assume shaq just sits at home all day eating..... bananas, while kobe spends every waking hour shooting baskets (which we know isnt true wink wink) This could be true, but when all is said and done, all we can say is we don't know. I never stated "shaq works harder than kobe", because I don't know if he does or doesnt, and thats the point I was trying to make, we don't know who works harder except from what we see on the floor, in which case shaq is more impressive. Going back to my first paragraph, I belive that shaq worked just as hard as kobe when still had things left to prove (and is doing so again today), we can't say whether kobe would work harder seeing as he has never not had anything left to prove.

I'm not so reluctant to choose sides, and I don't think you have to be a mindreader to know which side I choose.

disclaimer: I don't firmly believe in anything I'm arguing in the above, but my one major weakness is I can never pass up an argument no matter if I believe in it or not, so there

maybe we should impose a character limit in this thread

or maybe a "look at me I made a stupid joke, and made the incredible act of typing something without meaning anything, thus achieving the amazing act of sticking my thumb up my ass then sucking it" censor.

[John-John Joe]

Never once do they question the character of an athlete who gets in shape only when he wants to "prove something", that's just a lack of professionalism.

to a degree i disagree with this statement. I think it would be a lack of proffesionalism if and only if shaq hadn't proven anything beforehand. I think it is the basic human nature of ALL competitive, proffesinal athletes to get into shape/give it their all only when they have "something to prove". Proving something is one of if not the main things sport is about, and what proffessional sport is based upon; The reason professional bball exists is to compete and to win, the purpose of the player is to prove he can help his team win. To say an athlete who gets into shape only when he wants to prove something is unprofessional contradicts what professional sport is about. Mj burned out and retired for a couple of years because he had nothing left to prove, it happens to everyone. Maybe shaq shouldve worked harder after he had reached the epitomes of his sport and had achieved basically all his goals, but I think it is unreaasonable to expect that from anyone. Magic and Bird were lucky because they continually had something to prove, same with Wilt and Russell to a degree. MJ burned out, retired, heard the cat calls, bam, something to prove. The players are only human.

Why does kobe work hard?? Because he's not and has never been the best player in the league. Because he doesnt have a mvp. Because he doesnt have a championship mvp.

Because he has plenty left to prove.

- fat? YES, and he deserves every negative comment about this that he receives. There is simply no excuse for showing up out of shape three years in a row. And please don't fool yourself and say it hasn't affected him on the court. He was noticeably slower and lethargic and it most certainly affected his play.

I absolutely wanted to cut off his air supply everytime I saw him getting beat down the floor, beat on the boards by Ben and getting stripped of the rock before he had a chance to make a move in last years Finals. I kept thinking, he's making Ben look better than he is! No way he's even CLOSE to your level Shaq! You fat bastard!

Point proven. He was fat.

- to say that a fan shouldn't call him lazy and unmotivated (which he most certainly was and even admitted so in the interview in this thread, thoguh in not so many words) because of his career numbers is absolutely absurd. the same criticism that you have of Kobe fans is EXACTLY what you're doing right there.

I disagree. I don't know how i am doing what kobe fans are doing considering shaqs career numbers are vastly superior, and his accolades/resume much more complete and convincing. You have persuaded me to admit that the last couple of years he has been lazy and unmotivated and FAT , but over a career, I think it is unfair to say such about a much accomplished player. Is it fair of me to say that mj would not've been the greatest guard ever if he had played against the likes of tmac/kobe, based on the latter years of his career in washington?

- Kobe working hard on his game is just for good PR? C'mon mags, give the man his due. GEESH. That's just bananas, BANANAS.

mmmmmm..... banaaaaanaaaaas.........

um, anyway, I didnt say it was just good for PR. I said, who knows, maybe its just that kobe likes to publicize his off court affairs more than shaq does, and so since shaq doesnt work on his pr in that respect and kobe does, shaq gets none, kobe gets all, and thus we very logically assume shaq just sits at home all day eating..... bananas, while kobe spends every waking hour shooting baskets (which we know isnt true wink wink) This could be true, but when all is said and done, all we can say is we don't know. I never stated "shaq works harder than kobe", because I don't know if he does or doesnt, and thats the point I was trying to make, we don't know who works harder except from what we see on the floor, in which case shaq is more impressive. Going back to my first paragraph, I belive that shaq worked just as hard as kobe when still had things left to prove (and is doing so again today), we can't say whether kobe would work harder seeing as he has never not had anything left to prove.

I'm not so reluctant to choose sides, and I don't think you have to be a mindreader to know which side I choose.

disclaimer: I don't firmly believe in anything I'm arguing in the above, but my one major weakness is I can never pass up an argument no matter if I believe in it or not, so there

maybe we should impose a character limit in this thread

or maybe a "look at me I made a stupid joke, and made the incredible act of typing something without meaning anything, thus achieving the amazing act of sticking my thumb up my ass then sucking it" censor.

- there's not doubt that you're right about an athlete or sports is about proving something. whether it's to themselves, teammates, the fans, opposition, critics etc.

My point is this, for a player of that caliber to not do something as simple as stay in shape is inexcusable. I'm not saying he had to be like Kobe and brag about how many jumpers he took in the off season and the like, just simply stay in shape.

Am I asking too much for Shaquille to say no to extra helpings of baby back ribs? Am I asking too much of Shaquille to reintroduce himself to the treadmill in his off season? Am I asking too much of Shaquille to not eat 32 Krispy Kremes in one sitting? Am I asking too much of Shaquille to simply do what's basically required of him as a professional athlete? Okay, so we have that covered.

So three seasons go by and the Shaquille I would brag about on this very board in 2000 slowly disappeared. He began buying into to this ridiculous notion that he can get in shape during the season. Phil Jackson frowned upon this but what could the man do about the bigger counterpart of the "Hard-Headed Duo" right? The mere public suggestion of his weight being a problem sent him into a tizzy right? So eventually it ballooned (pun intended ) into what we saw in the '04 Finals. Question? If Shaq was in shape, would we have lost to the Pistons? I rest my case.

NOW, after being traded he decides that it is time now to lose weight? WHY? Why couldn't the MDE for the love of all that is fair and just do it for the fans in LA and the Laker fans worldwide that held him dear to their hearts? WHY? Simple, there was nothing in it for HIM.

So now with this slimmer Shaquille, he can make Mitch look like a fool for trading God's gift to the hardwood. (A trade that Snack demanded! ) "BWA-HAHAHAHAHA, how dare you don't pay the Diesel I'll show them! I'll lose weight and come back better than ever and rule the NBA!" Damn homie, why couldn't you have done that very thing in L.A.? Because there was no "agenda" involved, no personal "agenda." To make one look foolish while building himself up in the process, disgusting.... Terribly ego-driven, lazy, immature, arrogant, complacent, underachieving and downright UNPROFESSIONAL!

[Fresh8]

Nice work Jackal... nice post cause it was so long. In case it crashes next time... maybe u could post and keep editing... then u dont have to start over. Just a suggestion...

How about his comtemplating retirement last year because he felt the zone defenses were too tough?

- just wanna make a point how he called zone defences stupid in SLAM...

Dre, I'd be insulted. An adolecent calling you a dog? What's the world coming to.

- nah man... I'm just black!

I never implied he was, you just basically re-said what had already been said by the person that said it.

- but... i really did think u were making an attack on him cause u miss-read his post!!!

After being treated in this manner I doubt Phil had any intentions of coaching Kobe for anymore years to come. I can fully understand that part of his decision to leave was because of his bad rapport with the team's future. I'd pack up & leave too. Wouldn't you?

- u got a point there. apart from deciding his time was over. There was an article saying that Phil felt he couldn't control Kobe anymore cause he gave him too much leway... let him drive to games and choose to do wat he wanted. Agreed??

About Shaq leaving, Kobe could've tried to stop it, if he had tried I'm sure Shaq would've said fuck the whole thing let's just play ball. Kobe never tried. He never even made an attempt.

- he could have tried but Shaq did say leaving wasnt about Kobe. I know for sure that Kobe wanted him out but he didnt plan it!

Kobe has always loved glory and you'd be a fool to say he doesn't, I'm not saying it's wrong but it clarifies why he never tried to stop whatever it was that was happening

- I never said he doesn't want glory. It's human nature to want to be known! I read it as a grin...u know he's happy. It's a new beginning... no slyness in his grin. Maybe we're just different... oir u can just read faces man. It's ur opinion... i was just giving mine!

Sit, will you do the world a favour by going to eat shit & dying? In all seriousness, are you a moron or was that an attempt at being funny. If it was an attempt to be funny, it was a very weak one

- No- I don't want to eat shot and die thank you very much. Yes- it was a lame joke!

If I enjoyed watching fat people playing basketball I'd be a Shawn Kemp or an Oliver Miller fan. Please stop pulling shit out of your ass in an attempt to make me look stupid, you just cannot.

Wats wrong with being a Kemp fan... but u got serious problems if ur an O fan! (joking)... and no- not trying to make u look stupid!

This comment goes to show that you are in the early years of your puberty and don't have much on your mind besides sex, sex & sex.
You need some pussy my friend

- Oh yes... and will I get some!

Alot of people would've said he's cocky & you would've been a knight in shining armor to defend Kobe's honour. You didn't mention you'd call him cocky, you'd probably praise him, you praise him for everything else he's ever done.

- exactly. U got the point my friend. I would but nonoe else would say he's awesome. I'd say Kobe is da man and he's not scared of anyone. He's scared of noone!!!!

You want me to admire him for something that's expected of him? Hehe, thanks Dre.

-Think about it... heaps of ppl know that Kobe plays more basketball than any other player... or most of them. Either he's anti-social or he's just obsessed with balling or both. I was just pointing out that people would admire Kobe more for his work ethic than watever u said about Shaq...

Go & fuck yourself, quit using his arguments you dipshit

- Don't call me a fucking dipshit! I've read that goddamn book. I've read heaps of Michael Jordan biographies. Maybe you don't have a brain. But I do! U can't just invalidate my freaken points cause u thought I'm too stupid to actually pick up a goddamn motherfu*kin book to read man! It's a fact... read the book. You will see... I wasnt copying Dre. I swear!

Oh, admitting to a mistake is professional. What would you call jeapordising his entire career, jeapordising the franchise's future & causing immense shame to his family? Professional? Apologising & admitting he was wrong won't make it professional, no matter how hard you try to convince me otherwise

- Wat he did wasnt pro. The fact that he admitted and apologized is. If he kept on denying it it wouldnt have been good for the league. (Even though it's not good for the league right now..)

You're out of you mind just as much as Jack Nicholson was at the end of One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest

- thats great man. Yes I am crazy... do u have any problems wit that???

Which you contributed jack shit towards, you just felt the need to be involved

- please Jackal... note the fuckin sarcasm!!!!

its true... i didnt contribute much... its because i dont have the time man. I got exams and basketball! see you later. I''m outer here!

[Fresh8]

I'm sorry but I have said Kobe's weaknesses and non-similarities of his and MJ's games... (very rarely...maybe) But if I say Kobe's lacking this and this. How is that supporting ur own player? Jackal... dont u understand.

If there wasnt bias then how can arguements be formed.

Sure... I will say this. Kobe is a hog. He demands the shots. He may have kicked Phil and Shaq out the door (although I dont think so very much) but thats what makes him a player. Michael Jordan demanded shots until he truly became great. Kobe is only 26, he's yet to reach his peak and hopefully mature as a team player. If he ever does, maybe he will rewach MJ's level. Judging on what he's doen so far... no he's nowhere near as talented individually... but as a Kobe fan, I respect his game and I don't wanna dis him for it!

Kobe Bryant has been cocky since entering the league. He still is. Wearing sunglasses in ur rookie pressconference made new haters and gave him a reputation.,.. hard to turn. Now that he and Shaq have had thos arguements his reputation as a cocky brat has been further enriched... but thats what makes money for this league and thats wat gets the fans.

Is he a pretender? A "I wanna be Like Mike"... yes he is. From what he does and tries to do you can see it. But taking in Dre's point. It's true... who doesnt wanna be like Mike. Michael Jordan is the greatest of all time simply because he changed the face of basketball through marketing during his career. These players now grew up watching him, some molding their games like his... and maybe Kobe has a gone a bit too far. But I'm still a fan and will always be one.

This year is the year. You can hang me if he does bad but I will still support him even if he does shit.

And to jackal and Dre and everyone else.. I understand that basketball is dominated by the bigs... exception: MJ. But do I wanna admit this... no. Did I ever say the Lakers shouldn't have done the Heat trade? They could have gotten so much more out of it... Did I ever say Shaq wasn't better than Kobe... I'm not sure I have if I did, tell me!

Maybe on skills Kobe is better, but I do remeber saying Shaq is the MDE... I liked Shaq leaving cause I want to see Kobe lead the Lakers... But I don't think I've said that Kobe is better than Shaq. Actually- the two of them together minus feuds had som much to achieve.

"They were meant to play for so much more, but they lost themsleves... somewhere deep inside, somewhere deep inside!" PEACE!

[Carlos Boozer]

Too many quotes in this thread

[Stevan]

Well it's nice to see people get back to posting without just insulting each other

If you don't do that, you'll end up like a Bulls fan who refuses to believe the 1996 season is over.

What on earth are you talking about? Anyhoo... the Bulls have had a wonderfull season, I think they'll break the record and finally get 70! Rodman was a terrific pickup.

Hey Jae, do you remember that one time on the old forum when that Bulls fan came into a Bulls thread and was saying stuff like "Yeah the Bulls are still alright, I mean they still have Kukoc and Harper..." months after the Bulls had dealt Kukoc and Harper had left? We gave him heaps of shit for that, and then every time the Bulls were mentioned, someone would say "Yeah it's ok, they still have Kukoc..."

My apologies for posting completely off topic.

[Jeffx]

Being a long time Laker fan I can remember quite clear the way Magic and Kareem (BTW, a duo that gets consistently overlooked when discussing best one two punches) when about their business in a quiet professional manner....

Magic and Kareem? Couldn't stand each other and don't care for each other now. Larry Legend and Kevin McHale? Their relationship was incredibly chilly, they never liked each other. But these four guys put aside petty differences and kept their personal stuff out of the media.

Shaq and Kobe disappointed me in this regard, letting their personal agendas get in the way of winning. It's a crying shame that they're no longer together but I feel the need to point out the truth to a new generation of b-ball fans who are being raised by sensationalism and O.B. (opinionated bullshit). They were BOTH to blame, Kobe's selfishness has been well documented so the tendency is to make him the "Fall Guy" or the scapegoat so to speak while those same people give Snack "a pass"...

I'll always tell it like it is and can put aside any personal biases to discuss things as they are and not how I want them to be.....

DRE did you read Kareem's quotes in the Daily News awhile back? He said the same thing you did. He couldn't understand why they couldn't work things out. They weren't looking at the big picture.

I'm no Laker fan, but I'm VERY disappointed in Shaq & Kobe(I like dynasties). If they stayed together(and are surrounded by a decent cast), LA could still win championships. Bunch of babies. IMO, it'll be a long time before either of them wins another title.