Wolves vs Spurs?

[Jackal]

We already had a Duncan vs KG thread, it was made by myself.

We came to a conclusion that KG was the better all around player but Duncan was the better finisher etc.

Please, let's not add Shaq since in his prime, I doubt anyone could stop him. (After Hakeem left that is...)

[TRIO DOROBO]

We already had a Duncan vs KG thread, it was made by myself.

We came to a conclusion that KG was the better all around player but Duncan was the better finisher etc.

Please, let's not add Shaq since in his prime, I doubt anyone could stop him. (After Hakeem left that is...)

im saying adding shaq to the list was joke. we all know that shaq cant no longer go up against KG and Duncan. coz shaq prime was long way over.

[air gordon]

comparing basketball and football in this situation is inaccurate imo since they are 2 entirely different monsters

[Riot]

Career stats aren't reliable. Duncan came in ready, and posied. Kevin Garnett was the first guy to come from high school to the pros in 20 years. There is a difference there.

[Sauru]

wish we could just say that both are 2 of the best the league has to offer now. all i hear from everyone is kobe this or mcgrady that. well i personally would take both duncan and kg over either of those players. infact these 2 would probably be my first 2 picks if i had to pick a player to build a team around.

[Jackal]

Hehe, the things fans can say.

[Sauru]

i will agree that career stats dont always mean everything. they do make for a good base though. for instance there were players that could have easily scored far better than thier career averages showed(bird is a great example here). other players stayed around too long and hurt thier career numbers(jordan is a great example of this). then you got the players who come from high school and dont do much thier first few years so thier numbers are lowered(kobe is a great example here). either way career numbers serve as a good base to start a conversation.

[Rens]

He does have a bit of a point. Let's say Darko becomes one of the NBA greats. His first season's stats will always hold back his averages over his entire career. Same goes for Garnett. This also applies to players who continued playing well past their prime, Malone isn't helping his career averages either now, same goes for guys like Magic and Jordan.

I'm not saying career stats are unreliable, but for players who have spent seasons on the bench or something, they can be a bit misleading.

[magius]

i think i mentioned in one of my earlier posts that in general i dont judge how many championships and playoff mvps and mvps a player has as long as he has at least one. Bill Russell is certainly among the greatest ever, and probably one of if not the greatest team player in the history of the nba. I am in the minority, but i would choose russell over wilt -- when wilt averaged 50 who won the league mvp? russell. thats saying something.

Stats are very unreliable. good stats do not neccesarily mean team success; which in the end, in my opinion, is far more important. In most cases, when comparing two very good players, the amount of success each and each brings to their respective teams is more reliable.

in the end, there is no feasible, accurate, factual evidence that garnett is, as of today, a better player than duncan. fans like kg better because he's exciting, and if were judging excitement level, sure, garnett is better, but being fun to watch doesnt neccesarily mean your great; ask vince carter.

yes i would pick td and kg over anyone else in the league today too, at least we agree on something

[Riot]

I didn't mean UNreliable. I meant was that KG came in from a completely different perspective. He was a kid in a man's game. Everyone thought he was too skinny and what not to even survive in the league.


Duncan is great. Garnett is great.

Duncan was put in a winning situation. Kevin had to create one. Just my opinion.

[Jackal]

Only a Kobe fan wouldn't pick TD and/or KG.

I'd pick TD over KG though...

[Riot]

Wow, I'm starting to think this is a waste of time.

If I something you'll bring something completely different up. KG is better than TD, to me it's obvious. To you it's wrong. Bottom line though, Kevin Garnett improves every year.

[magius]

kevin garnett stats from 2000-2002

2000 - 22.9 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.56 bpg, 1.48 spg, .497 fg%
2001 - 22.0 ppg, 11.4 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.79 bgp, 1.37 spg, .477 fg%
2002 - 21.2 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.56 bgp, 1.19 spg, .470 fg%

bottom line. no, he doesnt improve every season.

of course everytime you bring something up we have to counter it if you havent persuaded us, isnt that what an argument is? Are we just supposed to agree with you and dance around with little pink bunny rabbits? to me its clear as day and night that duncan excedes garnett in terms of who is a better basketball player.

[Riot]

Duncan has been better. He has had the better career. But I think last year Kevin Garnett exceeded Tim Duncan. Therefore making him better than Duncan now. KG is the best player on the planet RIGHT NOW. Therefore, past doesn't matter.

And I have a question about you're statements saying you're not great unless you have a playoff mvp, mvp and a title. So Kobe Bryant isn't great? He has 3 titles but no MVP and no playoff MVP. I don't see him getting Playoff MVP at all (just go with me) so does that make him not great?

To me, you don't have to have those things to be great because great players are formed by great teams. Kevin just got a great team last year and if it wasn't for injuries we might be singing a different song. To me, it wasn't all Duncan for winning the title and it wasn't all Kevin for not winning one. There are things these guys can't control so putting everything on them is completely unfair. Saying Spurs won a title so Duncan is the best and saying KG hasn't so he isn't the best is like comparing apples to oranges.

Stats, skill, leadership, heart, work ethic and player awards is what I think makes a great player. KG has great stats, great skill, excellent leadership, ton of heart, the best work ethic and he has an MVP.

That's what I think. Duncan has had the better career but you can't judge that fairly because of the wide range in talent on both the teams. Right now, Kevin Garnett has past Tim Duncan making him the Best Player on the Planet.

[Riot]

And when I say he improves every season, it doesn't mean stats all the time. If you watched him you would know.

Plus, 2000-2001 was a very tough season for him. His idol died in a car crash (Malik Sealy).

[Jackal]

*sigh* I do too much spam-mation on this forum. I'll just add another useless one.

Tim Duncan vs. Kevin Garnett.

Duncan's floor time statistics:

Min %: 63%
Net Points: +548
Offense: 92.6
Defense: 82.0
Net 48: 10.5
Wins: 54
Losses: 14
Win Percentage: 78.5%

Garnett's floor time statistics:

Min %: 81%
Net Points: +617
Offense: 97.5
Defense: 88.3
Net 48: 9.2
Wins: 62
Losses: 19
Win Percentage: 76.5

These stats represent how the team performed while the player was on the floor.
The Net48 number shows the average +/- net points over a full game.

Scoring (by game):

Duncan:

FG: 8.6
FGA: 16.7
FG%: .514
Ast'd: 53%
Blk'd: 8%
Ftm: 5.1
Pts: 22.3

Garnett:

FG: 9.8
FGA: 19.6
FG%: .501
Ast'd: 67%
Blk'd: 3%
Ftm: 4.5
Pts: 24.2

These were based on the 2003-2004 season, who's the better player? KG? How?

Duncan wins more games by him being on the floor than Garnett does.
As stated by Magius, Duncan is a better basketball player (a smarter one too probably) than Garnett is.

Let's not forget Duncan started off the season slowly...(KG had the whole summer off because he turned down Team USA stating he needed rest, whereas Duncan kept playing, in 2003 he only got only one month's rest. Plus he started off being injured.) TD could've been just as good as KG or maybe even better than KG were it not for these factors.

[magius]

When I say great, I mean GREAT. Kobe bryant and kevin garnett are very good, but it would be an insult to the greats like wilt, magic, and mj to mention them in the same breadth. There exists a line between great and very good, and in my opinion a player can only cross that line when and if he achieves the three milestones i mentioned: a championship, a playoff mvp, and an mvp; a championship to show that he makes his team better and that he is a good basketball player, a playoff mvp to prove that he was the main reason he won that championship, and an mvp to show that he is a good individual player as well. These three awards encompass and define the overall achievement and success of a GREAT player. In my mind there exist only 2 or 3 greats per era, wilt-russell, magic-bird, hakeem-mj, etc., what divides these from the very goods is that they succeed in every facet one can, despite whatever obstacle crosses them, with no excuses.

Kobe bryant and kevin garnett are one third of the way there. I would not consider either great until they win a championship as the clearly stated most important player on that championship team, and in kobes case until he's the most valuable player in the leauge as well (which he isnt, and wont be as long as kg and td exist).

I do think that one day kg might win a championship, and I hope he does, because he is a player i like, and when he does we will remmber this era as the kg-td era, but until that day there is no argument in my mind as to whom is the better player. td has done it all.

Stats, skill, leadership, heart, work ethic and player awards is what I think makes a great player. KG has great stats, great skill, excellent leadership, ton of heart, the best work ethic and he has an MVP.

in other words: stats + skills + leadership + heart + work ethic = mvp, playoff mvp, championship. kg = 1 mvp vs td = 2 mvp, 2 championship, 2 playoff mvp. I fail to see how kg wins this. enlighten me.

past doesnt matter??? Why were you talking about improvement every year then?? Why were we talking about kg coming out of high school??? Why are we talking about malik sealy???? How is it that past ceases to exist when it benefits my point of the argument? And then you say kg improves every year, I give you stats to show he doesnt, you say stats dont matter now! okay, fair enough, but then you go a great player needs great STATS. WHAT?!! make up your mind. You cant keep changing the rules and saying things matter only when it benefits your side of the discussion.

great players are not formed by great teams. Great players form great teams.

[Riot]

Pistons are a great team. Who is "great' on their team?

[TRIO DOROBO]

Only a Kobe fan wouldn't pick TD and/or KG.

I'd pick TD over KG though...

Posting just to make Kobe fans like a stupid. as for me though a kobe fans would either choose between the two great players.

Only a Shaq fan like wouldn't pick TD and/or KG. but you pick TD coz ow well shaq was down the hill for now.

[air gordon]

larry brown was the great of that team haha.

seriously good point, riot. possibly the pistons are the exception to the rule

[Jackal]

Only a Shaq fan like wouldn't pick TD and/or KG. but you pick TD coz ow well shaq was down the hill for now.

You have just declared all out war.

Just to make it clear, if Shaq were the Shaq of 2000, I'd pick him over TD. However, I wouldn't pick Kobe over TD despite his "greatness".

OMG WTF LOL 40 POINT GAMES~~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG WTFF!!!!!!!! LOLLLLL!! W000000000000000T WTF OMFG!! LOL LOL LOL LOL!!!!! WTF YOU SUCK, SHAQ IS FAT ASS KOBE IS MJ, WTF!!!!!!!!!!!

Posting just to make Kobe fans like a stupid. as for me though a kobe fans would either choose between the two great players.

Eh, wtf?

Shaq>Kobe

You stopped discussing in that thread.

Pistons are a great team. Who is "great' on their team?

Didn't you read what he said? Great = Championship, MVP Finals & REGULAR MVP

No one on that team won the regular season MVP. Every player on the Detroit team is good, not great.

[TRIO DOROBO]

hellow it 2004. pls accept as Shaq's bicth that he passed his prime. stay in 2000 if you want to see shaq dominant.

kobe is not like MJ. nobody can be MJ so stop putting word in our mouth and say we say KObe is MJ. Kobe haters always do that to make as kobe fans stupid and make everyone hates kobe. and where not.


And ow pls stop WHINING coz Lakers pick Kobe over your bitch. so go on and go where your bitch are. be a heat bandwagoner and be the lifetime Shaq's Whore

[magius]

Pistons are a great team. Who is "great' on their team?

that is a good point. in answer to who is "great", no one is great on their team because none of them have a league mvp, and none of them will have one. But I think you were trying to disprove my statement that great players form great teams. Okay, fair enough, but I said "great players form great teams", I didnt say that great teams can ONLY be formed by great players. I just said that if your a great player then subsequently you will make your team great. The spurs were not a great team prior to duncans arrival. How do i know this? They didnt win a championship. GREAT teams win championships. They were a good team that duncan made great, and in that respect you are right that duncan had an easier situation than kg, but i never argued that point. I do feel that if kg were as great as duncan that he shouldve won a championship or at least made it to the finals in the time alloted since then though. He may still, but he hasnt yet, so as of now, duncans great, kgs very good.

[Jackal]

You crack me up.

I fully accept it's 2004, don't worry about me. People should really stop worrying about me. I accept Shaq is not the player he once was, but if you're suggesting I forget what he did for the team (like you apparently have) then you're mistaken, I won't do that. I know those three championships were won by the team but Shaq was the focal point. You seem to have forgotten that, I haven't.

I put the MJ words in Kobe fans' mouth? I'll try finding that guy's profile that says: "Kobe, the next MJ" I don't put anything anywhere. I give credit where it's due. Look up my posts, when Shaq plays shit I say he does, when Kobe plays great, I say he does. Kobe fans however just say Shaq's fat or totally ignore him. It's only Kobe fans that do this btw. Other teams' posters can admit that Shaq was the more valuable player. I've managed to get one Kobe fan to admit that Shaq was the more valuable player on that Lakers team. Others don't see it, not much I can do about it I guess.

I've accepted that to win you need a big man, have you?

Oh, since you're too stupid to figure it out on your own, those stats I posted (with Kobe-without Kobe/with Shaq-without Shaq) are statistics from the 2003-2004 season.

LA had a better percentage (54%) of winning compared to when Kobe's leading the team. (34% orso...)

Thanks for letting me prove you're a moron. I've enjoyed it & accepted that as a fact.

And ow pls stop WHINING coz Lakers pick Kobe over your bitch. so go on and go where your bitch are. be a heat bandwagoner and be the lifetime Shaq's Whore

Hehe, I think you're getting a bit defensive. You're posting alot about "my bitch" and me being Shaq's whore.

Shaq = top ten all time. Whore? I'll be it if that's what being a fan is. In this case you're a cocksucker. Seriously, calling names, not very smart. I'm a self proclaimed moron, can't diss me more than I diss myself but let's not go down that road.

I've given stats & facts as to why Shaquille O'Neal > Kobe Bryant. All you've done is insulted me. You have no stats, no facts...you have nothing.

[Sauru]

quoting magius

"I am in the minority, but i would choose russell over wilt"

you probably are in the minority but i am right there with you. russell was a very good team player and better yet the ultimate defender. too bad they didnt count blocked shots back then cause he was getting about 15 a game.


"When I say great, I mean GREAT. Kobe bryant and kevin garnett are very good, but it would be an insult to the greats like wilt, magic, and mj to mention them in the same breadth. There exists a line between great and very good, and in my opinion a player can only cross that line when and if he achieves the three milestones i mentioned: a championship, a playoff mvp, and an mvp"



i almost 100% agree here. duncan,kg,kobe, are all great for thier time. yes i know they still have along way to go and maybe in the end we can compare them to the legends but for now they are only that, great, not legends. as far as what seperates the 2 i argee with all 3 but i think you missed 1. what makes a player a legendary player imo is those things and the ability to make everyone around them better. jordan,magic,russell, and imo specially bird. those 4 and a few others flat out made everyone better. jordan being the most recent player will be my example. look at what the players did after leaveing the bulls/jordan retired. what ever happened to horrace grant? steve kerr? bj armstrong? longley? i could go on(i will leave pippen out as he was getting older and still did good imo). maybe you agree, maybe you dont. would like to hear what you think about this 4th thing though. cause as i see it now kobe,kg, or duncan are not makeing thier teammates better.