NBA FINALS "LAKERS vs. PISTONS"

[GloveGuy]

I heard it on the radio, some guy named Vick the Brick Jacobs said it. He works for a local sports radio station in L.A. XTRA SPORTS 1150 AM and always has inside info on the Lakers. I also heard today that Fox,Kobe,Shaq,Devean, and Fisher approached Phil to start them in game 4 because they had the most experience running the triangle. According to this same source Phil said he would think about and would discuss it with the rest of the team. Mabey Phil will do it in game 5. I don't think you want Fox or George on Sheed though.

I already stated that last night. But that has to be the dumbest thing a coach could do. Sheed would murder Fox or George. There's just no logic to that lineup, even if they are good in the triangle.

I actually think the triangle sucks. The Pistons can defend it well and Phil needs to realize this. Especially when your point guard is ineffective in it, this offense needs to go. Phil needs to wake up and play his team to their strengths because they're not doing it in the triangle. They're better as a fast-break team and Phil is too stubborn to realize this.

[MVP]

I actually think the triangle sucks. The Pistons can defend it well and Phil needs to realize this.
[/color]

I don't think the triangle sucks...look at the teams that used it....
Bulls= 6 rings
Lakers = 3 rings

I just think the Lakers are not performing.

[GloveGuy]

I just think it's dated and the Pistons have found a way to defend it. The Lakers don't play their best as a half-court team; they do as a fastbreak team. The Lakers would play a better triangle if they started Derek Fisher, but they don't because logically you play the better player -- Gary Payton. Yet Phil continues the triangle when he should play an offense more to Payton's strengths.

[RedTorro]

I just think it's dated and the Pistons have found a way to defend it. The Lakers don't play their best as a half-court team; they do as a fastbreak team. The Lakers would play a better triangle if they started Derek Fisher, but they don't because logically you play the better player -- Gary Payton. Yet Phil continues the triangle when he should play an offense more to Payton's strengths.

It's outdated? WTF does that have to do with anything? It doesn't matter hold old the offense is, the Lakers are just not running it. Kobe last night jacked up a bunch of shots that weren't necessary when you had Shaq dominating on the inside. There is nothing wrong with the triangle when it's being run correctly and you don't have selfish players breaking out of it. I would expect those comments coming from "Gloveguy" but guess what, the glove has no right to criticize the offense when he has no rings. All year G.P. has missed wide open shots. The Lakers have never been a fastbreak team during the Shaq and Kobe era and it's not about to change in 3 games or so. If the Lakers are going to win this series it's going to be because the offense is run first through Shaq then kick out to Kobe. I guess my idea for the Lakers to sign Pippen wasn't such a bad idea afterall. he could be running the offense waaaaaaaay better than Payton. You could have Fisher starting and Pippen off the bench holding the fort while some guys get rest.

[magius]

well, i originally proclaimed the pistons in 7 before the series started, so it looks like i jinxed it that guy who was saying pistons in 4 doesnt look so stupid now, eh? this series could easily be over right now.

This is the playoffs, their is no such thing as coasting. Coasting is just another word for inconsistency, and championship teams are not inconsistent. The lakers have been inconsistent all year and they remained so arrogant saying its because they're bored. Are you still bored? Hell, of course if the lakers played their A game they "could" win....... if detroit plays their B game. For any team that loses their will always be a thousand excuses and fans who still think their team is better if only they had "tried". you know what? in the end, all that matters is the W. Whoever gets the win is the better team. end of story. I would say the same thing if the lakers came back and won it all.

It's destiny that the pistons win they took the championship away from the lakers dynasty in 89 and they're taking it away again (i hope). but in actuality, the spurs took it away, but same difference.

lakers want to win? give it to shaq. give it to shaq. give it to shaq. um, give it to shaq. kobe? limit to 14 shots, 10 in the fourth. give it to shaq. give it to shaq. give it to shaq. fisher no dunk. give it to shaq. give it to shaq.

[Andre]

Lakers adjustments:

Defense
1. always single-cover Sheed and Ben, I'd rather have Sheed taking 30 shots than being killed by Billups and Rip from outside. Focus on defending on the perimeter!!
2. Stop passing underneath on pick N rolls. Always switch defender on any screen from minute one and then recover as soon as you can.
3. Quit committing stupid fouls on offensive rebounds or Detroit's inbounds, that only gives away FTs to the Pistons when they are not even attacking the basket

Offense
1. more picks ( or screens, whatever..) away from the ball. Have Bryant set free and cut to the basket without the ball and w/o Prince on him. Kobe shoots much better when covered by Rip or Billups.
2.Less pick N rolls on the ball, Detroit is too good at defending on Pick N rolls and on the ball and it often turns into a loose ball
3. Have Bryant drive to the basket instead of taking jump shots. It would drive more fouls and possibly put Detroit in foul troubles. That would diminish defensive pressure and let the Lakers play their basket.
4. Involve Shaq in 5-7 more possessions. 21 attempts are still too few considering how good he's playing.
5. If Kobe drives to the basket and he's covered and doesn't get fouled, pass the ball outside to George, Fisher, Rush, FOx or Payton. If Detroit defender are in the paint taking care of Bryant, you'll have open shots

[magius]

6. give shaq 40 shots. he'll still hit at least 25, which is a winning percentage. give it to shaq. but of course the lakers wont do that for god knows what reason.

go pistons!

[kevC]

btw i said pistons in 4... i was so damn close!!

[air gordon]

the comments from shaq saying the team needs to compete or whatever is the biggest shocker of them all...

some people need to understand that bryant can't drive to the basket by snapping his fingers. prince is able to play his drive instead of his shot because of Prince's freakishly long arms allow him to recover and bother most of bryant's jumpers

The Lakers don't play their best as a half-court team; they do as a fastbreak team. The Lakers would play a better triangle if they started Derek Fisher, but they don't because logically you play the better player -- Gary Payton. Yet Phil continues the triangle when he should play an offense more to Payton's strengths

the lakers can't fastbreak because the pistons are controlling the boards. besides, the pistons are more athletic, mobile, and longer at each position then LAL except SG

logically speaking, you run the system around your superstars abilities, then play the role players (payton) that fit the system. why should phil jackson abandon the offense which produced 9 championships for the 4th "best" scorer on the team? what can payton do now anyway? he can't post up effectively on billups and you have rasheed wallace playing zone defense now. i'd much rather have fisher camping around the 3pt land and flopping on defense then contine to have payton make billups look like the finals mvp.

i thought PJ's offensive gameplan was smart- force feed shaq, who was on 2 days rest, and hope for double teams to open it up for eveyone else.

-
as the wise yank said "it's not over until it's over". but i will say that the pistons have these things going for them:
*they've been able to control the temp to their liking
*no malone makes rasheed unstoppable
*they have shown they are a very mentally tough team
*they are a great free throw shooting team
*their perimeter players aren't reluctant to take big shots
*game 5 is in detroit
*shaq coming off only one day of rest after playing almost all of game 4

[Jackal]

That's for the person that know's who it's for.

Anyways, it's been a dismal series for Kobe, Tayshaun is all over him, he's forcing it. Jackson was all over him too on one of the plays, I think it was when he went to block Rip & Billups hit that huge three. Jackson was pissed, he gave it to Bryant during the time-out and Bryant finally just nodded, as if saying, ok, ok, it's my fault in exasperation.

Shaq is still the MVP, I'm sorry to all Kobe fans, but Shaq is still the MVP. Please don't tell me that if he's the MVP, why arent they winning, they are not winning because the role players are not making their shots, they are getting looks but they just aren't converting. Ofcourse, nothing taken from Detroit's smothering defence. I'm pissed about this win, do they even want to win? How can Shaq be the only one producing, is this the height of patheticness or what, come on, play some team basketball and some team defence. They seem to be most relaxed about whatever is happening.

That's what I said in the Kobe thread, in case ya'll missed it.

I am still hoping for the almost impossible, but from a non laker fan viewpoint, this thing looks as good as done. But since I am a Laker fan, I truely think they have it in them to come back and win this thing although it won't be easy. It'll take alot of tight defence and crisp execution. No mistakes, big leads are needed, no mistakes. No scoring droughts or whatever. I think they are capable of finishing the Pistons, they have it in them. At the same time, Detroit has it in them to finish LA, now we just have to see which team does what. If the Pistons cannot close this game out in the next game, there is alot more hope than there is now. Again, I didnt see it live due to exams, thus I'm posting late.

Shaq = the shiznit. He's working his ass off.

Malone = ? What?

George = ? What?

Bryant = ? What are you doing? Get with it man, these are the Finals, isnt this when the best show what they are capable of?

Payton = ? What? You were there for the first quarter, where'd you go after that?

Walton = too much confidence, calm down, do what you do best, execute plays and pass the ball.

Fisher = Don't think you're the best all time or the saviour of the Lakers, come off the bench hit a few important shots, go back and have a seat. Calm down, all the becnhies just need to calm down.

Ben Wallace = The true MVP if the Pistons win this thing, awesome job he does night in and night out. Heh, snatched the ball under Fishers nose and put it in for 2 making it a 3 point possesion.

Rasheed Wallace = Great job going against an injured Malone and non defensive minded Medvedenko. Truely he's not more than a good role player. He's lucky everyone on that team can play good defense and Lakers cant hit a shot.

Prince = shiznit, amazing job staying in front of Bryant, tenacity.

Hamilton = awesome shooter, keeps coming off screens and bam, in your face. *sigh* As much as you want him to miss, the more he makes the shots.

Billups = I'm telling you, the Lakers and/or their management did something against him, he seems to vent all his frustration on LA, dammit boy, stop.

Joe Dumars' team is kicking Magic Johnsons' team's ass.

Faith isn't lost folks, it aint over till the fat lady sings, I don't hear my mom singing as yet.

Head up, it aint over till it's over. Unlike the Spurs and LA series, that one's really over.

[Jackal]

One thing I noticed, a fan was holding up a sign that said:

The Lakers have Superman, the Pistons have Kryptonite. From what I've seen so far, Superman is the only one that's destroying Detroit, I guess the Kryptonite doesnt affect this Superman too much, does it.

*Edit* Sorry for not editing the previous post. *Edit*

[magius]

its working on superboy just fine though ben wallace is not a good enough one-on-one d'er to have any effect whatsoever on shaq.

[Jackal]

Superboy? You mean Robin, yeah, that's because of the long armed freak and lots of help defence.

True that, Big Ben can't contain Shaq...given he can't contain him, can anyone tell me why he doesnt get the ball on every possesion?

[magius]

i feel your pain

i couldnt call whatshisface robin, because robin isnt allergic to kryptonite, thus the reference would be illogical. i feel smart now, i used big words. um, anyway i love the pistons, now this is a real team, they stick to their system and do what they're told. If this was spurs pistons we would be lucky if the scores totalled 100 together

[Jackal]

i feel your pain

i couldnt kall whatshisface robin, because robin isnt allergic to kryptonite, thus the reference would be illogical. i feel smart now, i used big words.

You used big words and spelt "call" wrong.

um, anyway i love the pistons, now this is a real team, they stick to their system and do what they're told. If this was spurs pistons we would be lucky if the scores totalled 100 together

*grumble grumble* Damn bandwagonners *grumble grumble*
Ok, I'll stop spamming now.

[HowAreYao?]

That's for the person that know's who it's for.

It hurts too bad to come out and be a man about it I guess...

[Jackal]

*sigh* You're new Yao, older members know what I'm referring to. Click the crazy smileys in my sig to find out what I'm talking about.

On topic-->

[air gordon]

PJ- come back to me with this man talk when mommy and daddy are done changing your diaper, er i mean done putting you to bed, or at least when you're allowed to stay up past your bedtime on a weekday

[Amphatoast]

sorry for a being off topic...
but T_Mac, can you make your sig smaller please.
850pixels wide is way too wide..it took me a while to read this thread since i kept having to scroll left and right:(

[magius]

you know its not going to be as fun around here with the laker crowd gone........ i mean, who are we going to flaunt our vastly superior intelligence too once they leave?

i'll miss people believing absurdity so honestly it becomes funny, but i guess you win some you lose some its a hard life sometimes being perfect *sigh* but i guess i just have to keep on going. poor me.

(just playing!! i'll miss you guys!! *tear* )

utter humiliation. I'dve picked the spurs again, by the way.

You used big words and spelt "call" wrong.

ummmmm, no i didnt.......... edits post quickly. bastard.

oh, and for the record im not a bandwagonner (is that a word mr. dictionary? huh? HUH?) if you care to dig it up i picked detroit over jersey and over indiana against the crowd, and detroit over la in 7 before the series started so there!!!! arrrrrrrrrr.

[GloveGuy]

The Lakers have never been a fastbreak team during the Shaq and Kobe era and it's not about to change in 3 games or so.

They did at the beginning of the season. That's what got them the 18-3 start. They haven't dominated since. It played to the strengths of GP and Malone and at the same time, Shaq and Kobe would get their's. The Lakers were actually playing team ball at the time; there would be four or five players in double figures. Then they went back to the triangle, and they haven't been the same team.

the lakers can't fastbreak because the pistons are controlling the boards. besides, the pistons are more athletic, mobile, and longer at each position then LAL except SG

logically speaking, you run the system around your superstars abilities, then play the role players (payton) that fit the system. why should phil jackson abandon the offense which produced 9 championships for the 4th "best" scorer on the team? what can payton do now anyway? he can't post up effectively on billups and you have rasheed wallace playing zone defense now. i'd much rather have fisher camping around the 3pt land and flopping on defense then contine to have payton make billups look like the finals mvp.

The Lakers can fastbreak. All they need to do is prevent the offensive rebounds -- which they can do.

Phil would/should abandon the offense for the better of the team. They're simply a better, more dominating team when they run the break. Now you ask, what can Payton do? Well, he can run the fast break. He can run it very well.

And about Payton getting dominated by Billups. I'd hardly say that's true. The Lakers are getting dominated by Billups. As we all know, defending the pick-and-roll is a team job. Maybe if Shaq would step out a bit, Billups wouldn't statistically have a large advantage over Payton.

[air gordon]

The Lakers can fastbreak. All they need to do is prevent the offensive rebounds -- which they can do.

you make it sound so easy, like turning on a faucet,when it's really not. the pistons are an excellent rebounding team and have dominated the boards in all 4 games of the series. Combine that and the fact that Larry Brown has the Pistons run down the shot clock on most possessions and not take il-advised shots, there aren't many situations where the lakers have the opportunity to run. also you have to factor in that malone is no longer healthy enough to sprint down the court for easy buckets. Rip and Prince have been the series leading offensive rebounders and if LaL wants to prevent this and have their own guards hit the boards, that means even less opportunities to run

Phil would/should abandon the offense for the better of the team. They're simply a better, more dominating team when they run the break. Now you ask, what can Payton do? Well, he can run the fast break. He can run it very well.

what else can payton do? it's obvious the pistons players and coaching staff are aware of this and have made adjustments accordingly.

if your original intention was to have phil drop the triangle offense for the better of the team, you should have said so in the first place and not say "he should play an offense more to Payton's strengths"
but i think you would agree one of the main principles of the triple post is to get all of the players involved. the triangle is for the better for the teams since it does play to strengths of role players not counting GP. most of them are spot up shooters who can't create shots for themselves

And about Payton getting dominated by Billups. I'd hardly say that's true. The Lakers are getting dominated by Billups. As we all know, defending the pick-and-roll is a team job. Maybe if Shaq would step out a bit, Billups wouldn't statistically have a large advantage over Payton

he is getting dominated by Billups. who is the one is that is getting fined by the nba for not speaking to the media because he's frustrated? why is else is payton not playing a lot more minutes, especially in crunchtime? why is fisher getting more minutes? why is bryant the one guarding billups in the end?

[GloveGuy]

if your original intention was to have phil drop the triangle offense for the better of the team, you should have said so in the first place and not say "he should play an offense more to Payton's strengths"
but i think you would agree one of the main principles of the triple post is to get all of the players involved. the triangle is for the better for the teams since it does play to strengths of role players not counting GP. most of them are spot up shooters who can't create shots for themselves

Sorry for the misinterpretation but I really think that the Lakers are a better team when they run, which is possible, in my opinion.

I agree that the triangle offense is much more suited for a Derek Fisher-like player, though it doesn't mean that Fisher is better than Payton. There's no doubt about that, but it's obvious that the Lakers aren't playing to their strengths. If they were, than an all-star calibur player in Payton would be allowed to penetrate more often and create shots for other players. I would think that it would lessen the load for both Kobe and Shaq.

he is getting dominated by Billups. who is the one is that is getting fined by the nba for not speaking to the media because he's frustrated? why is else is payton not playing a lot more minutes, especially in crunchtime? why is fisher getting more minutes? why is bryant the one guarding billups in the end?

I'd really have to disagree about Billups getting burned by Payton. If Shaq would step up on the pick-and-roll, Billups wouldn't be nearly as efficient. And it's not all GP's fault. The Lakers were killed by the pick-and-roll last year by Hudson and Parker, and now they're getting their asses handed to them by Billups.

As you can see, I really don't understand Phil Jackson's methods. I have no reason why he's doing what he's doing. I think he's just scared for a change in style. He seems too stubborn to realize that the triangle can fail.

[Ruff Ryder]

True that, Big Ben can't contain Shaq...given he can't contain him, can anyone tell me why he doesnt get the ball on every possesion?

True. I wonder the same thing. Everytime usually in the first half Shaq gets the ball and just destroys his opponents. No contest. He has refined his post moves looking like the most agile 350+ pound man ever. Especially that drop step that nobody can stop. It is so fast. If they run the offense through shaq, eventually Kobe will get open shots. The Pistons would have to double around the time shaq scores his 30th point in the first half.

But no, instead, Kobe decides that he has to get about 20 every game. Don't get me wrong I'm a big Kobe fan and all, but he is messing up the series for us laker fans. I know that it is not all his fault but he should look at like a must win. He needs to do everything he can, even if it doesn't involve shooting. LA should have picked up Vin Baker before the playoffs started. He'd be key right now.

Slava Medvostinko isn't all that great either. Every shot he gets he tosses it up. He is more of a SF than a PF or a C. The forwards off of the bench for LA are just too weak to compete with Detroit's.

[Andrew]

Important Moderating Note:

Since the Finals may be over very soon, can I ask that everyone refrains from posting too many "Pistons win!/Lakers win!" topics after the game? Since both topics would be along the same lines, recapping the season, expressing joy over the victory etc, more than one or two celebration posts would basically be spamming.

That's all. This is basically the forum equivalent of a public service message asking everyone not to riot after the championship is decided.