All-Underrated Team

[Kenny]

I fail to see your point.
For me, All-Star games are (for the most part) irrelevant when thinking who's overrated and who's underrated.

I actually agree with you on that, I guess it was just my attempt at being a smart ass, since the creator of this thread said his criteria was players that hadn't made an all-star game.

The way players are rated is a case-by-case thing. If you listened to Shaq all the time, Chris Bosh would be the most underrated NBA player. Shaq never gives him the credit he deserves and pretty much scoffs at anyone who does. Skip Bayless is always on Russell Westbrook's case (although, that might just be Skip being the asshole that he is) and Charles Barkley even said that Steve Nash's inclusion to the All-Star team was a "lifetime achievement award", which is really selling short what he's been doing this season.

I also think Pau Gasol gets far too much criticism. I'm pretty sure Kobe would have less rings than Shaq if it wasn't for him.

[CheddahCheese]

he's on the news for several reasons: saving the knicks' season, excelling despite being an asian-american (rare breed in the NBA), harvard grad cut by 2 teams, former d-leaguer blossoming out of nowhere in the biggest media market in the league.

he's overrated because of that? No.

oh, cmon, you could've put chris duhon as a choice and over 1000 people would vote him. a public espn poll is not proper way to judge a player.

[CheddahCheese]

being an all-star is a BIG achievement, especially if the coaches voted for that player. in my opinion, you can't call a player underrated if he has been selected as an all-star.

[benji]

he's overrated because of that? No.

What's his rating?

oh, cmon, you could've put chris duhon as a choice and over 1000 people would vote him. a public espn poll is not proper way to judge a player.

being an all-star is a BIG achievement, especially if the coaches voted for that player.

So a public poll isn't a way to judge a player, but another poll in which 10/24 slots are publicly chosen and 14/24 slots are privately chosen is?

[koberulz]

oh, cmon, you could've put chris duhon as a choice and over 1000 people would vote him. a public espn poll is not proper way to judge a player.

So...the fact that 35,000 people rate him as the best has no effect on how he's rated?

being an all-star is a BIG achievement, especially if the coaches voted for that player. in my opinion, you can't call a player underrated if he has been selected as an all-star.

So you're claiming that all 12 guys on an all-star team are equally talented? Every year?

[CheddahCheese]

What's his rating?

Who am I to rate him? Ratings are always opinionated, unless you're playing 2k12

[CheddahCheese]

So...the fact that 35,000 people rate him as the best has no effect on how he's rated?

Half of those people were probably Lin fanboys living in Asia. Those ESPN polls are laughable.

So you're claiming that all 12 guys on an all-star team are equally talented? Every year?

Did I say that? What's your point here?

Being selected as an all-star, especially by coaches means a player's talent is recognized throughout the league, hence not really fair to call them underrated in my opinion.

[benji]

Who am I to rate him?

Then who are you to decide what "underrated" and "overrated" or "properly rated" means?

And who should be doing the rating?

Being selected as an all-star, especially by coaches means a player's talent is recognized throughout the league, hence not really fair to call them underrated in my opinion.

And how do we decide who among the other 400 players is underrated?

[CheddahCheese]

We're going around in circles here, benji. There's no real way to judge an underrated/overrated player. It's all opinionated. Nobody "rates" them.

[_Steve_]

When I see the hype created around Lin I'd like to start something like in "Wag the dog".
I'd create stories on ESPN around an Austrian Right Winger Hans Olo who has Asian roots. I'd claim he is probably the best RW since Tom Brady, Mario Lemieux and David Hasselhoff (last on could be a little bit too obvious). His assist to turnover ratio of 7 is highest in the league for rookies born in mid December. I'd bet he would get "serious" recognition after a week or two of constant media coverage when it comes to the question if he'd make the all star game...

[shadowgrin]

The hype created around Lin isn't even much of the media's 'fault' (if you want to call it that).
A lot of people can relate to Lin with his background and what he went through.

Azns.
Americans that look like azns.
Christians.
People that love underdog stories.
People that bounced from job to job.
People that got cut from their team or work.
People that got overlooked for an opportunity/promotion.
People who slept in their relative's couch because of lack of job/financial security.
Smart people (that are not familiar with basketball unlike Hollinger or benji types).
People who hate Carmelo Anthony.
People who hate Baron Davis.
People that like D'Antoni's 'system'.
Knicks fans.

[koberulz]

So you're claiming that all 12 guys on an all-star team are equally talented? Every year?

Did I say that? What's your point here?

Being selected as an all-star, especially by coaches means a player's talent is recognized throughout the league, hence not really fair to call them underrated in my opinion.

If someone's as good as Michael Jordan, but the only credit they ever get is a bench gig on a couple of all star teams, in what way are they not underrated?

[NovU]

Lin's not overrated yet. His stats so far prove that he's up there with elites though it's early. Like I said people need to give him couple years before evaluating him.

As for this...

Really dude? Tyson Chandler is not underrated; he's properly rated. Other than Dirk, he was the reason Dallas won the title last year. And because of his play last year, the Knicks stupidly overpaid him. I love Chandler as much as the next guy, but he's not worth $15 million a year. That's superstar money.

How Good is Tyson Chandler?

Written by ElGeeon June 6, 2011—8 Comments


There is a notion floating around much of the Basketballsphere (neologism alert!) that great players need to be volume scorers. No player challenges that notion more than Tyson Chandler and his 5.5 field goal attempts per game.

One can argue that Chandler’s arrival in Dallas is the single biggest reason Dallas transformed into a legitimate title contender this year. Chandler’s presence has given the Mavs a championship gear on defense they lacked in prior seasons; With Chandler on the court this year, the Dallas defensive rating was ~103. Without him, they were over 3 points worse, or close to average. The numbers have been more profound against the tougher playoff competition.

I’ve tracked nearly 2000 Chandler possessions dating back to last spring in Charlotte, and he is about +2.0 on defense by Expected Value (EV). Just short of the elite. But I don’t think anyone needs advanced metrics to know Chandler is a high-quality defender. What’s up for theoretical debate is how valuable his offense is.

Stylistically, he can shoot open 15 footers from the elbow if left alone – note his good mid-range shooting percentages. (Dallas likes to run a downscreen for him about once a game, although they’ve gone away from this recently.) According to Expected Value, he’s +3.5 on offense…which actually makes him one of the best offensive players in the league.

Wait, what? That’s a head-scratcher. How can someone who rarely shoots be so good on offense?

Well, maybe it’s that what he does is just that beneficial. He sets good screens, doesn’t take bad shots, doesn’t stop the ball, is a threat rolling to the rim and is an excellent offensive rebounder. Most of his value in EV actually comes from his offensive rebounding: Without offensive boards, Chandler is a shade above average as an offensive player. With them, he’s a really good. Let’s break this down further.

Offensive Strengths:
•Highly efficient
•Excellent offensive rebounder
•Sets strong screens
•Doesn’t need ball/plays for him to be effective

Offensive Weaknesses:
•Relies on others for offense
•Not a hub/passer
•Incredibly low volume player

Conceptually, which makes more sense? That Chandler is roughly neutral as an offensive weapon, or that his efficiency and rebounding make him a fairly solid positive on offense, despite low volume scoring numbers? I can certainly buy the latter. We’d never say he’s a No. 1 (or even No. 3) offensive option, but he might be more effective than many No. 1 options in his role.

Consider 1973 Wilt Chamberlain. Wilt finished 4th in MVP voting that year, setting the FG% record. He boarded well, only took efficient shots and played 1st-team defense. That’s not to say Chandler is equal to 73′ Chamberlain — he’s a lite version, at best — but it’s not far fetched to consider a player with that role as a top-tier star. Dennis Rodman even played a similar part, and many are comfortable calling the Hall of Famer a top-20 player in his time.

Here are the stats between Chandler this year and Wilt in 1973, per 75 possesions:

Vintage-------Pts/75----Reb/75----Ast/75----TS%
73′ Wilt--------9.8--------13.8--------3.3-------.689
11′ Chandler--14.3--------13.3-------0.6-------.697

By classic box metrics, Chandler was also amazingly good. He was 6th in the league in Win SharesS/48 this year. By offensive win shares, he was 26th in the league.

Then there’s plus-minus data, an entirely different family of measurements. I told you the defense was better this year with him on the court…but the offense was also three points better.

The regularized Adjusted Plus-Minus (RAPM) data from Jeremias Engelmann also tells us Chandler is really good. His 4-year results have Chandler +2.6 on defense and dead even on offense. Whether his defense is radically different this year, I think it’s safe to say his offense is improved this year. So at the least, calling Chandler slightly positive on offense — say, +1.0 — makes him look like a top-30 player in the NBA since 2008.

And in this year’s RAPM run he was top-15 player!


2011 RAPM Leaders Englemann

I suppose that’s the real question here: Where exactly does Tyson Chandler reside among the top-30 or so players in the league? Is he closer to the elite than we realize, or is barely mentionable as an all-star candidate? Whatever the answer, it’s safe to say he’s Dallas’ second most important player and one of the NBA’s most underrated.

And he's playing even at a higher level this season. Tyson Chandler is The Most Underrated imo.

[shadowgrin]

Tyson Chandler's salary proves that he's not underrated.

[NovU]

That aside, I am on the same page with Lamrock that he's been the best center this season. Yet not making an All-Star team even as a reserve over Hibbert sorta sucked imo.

[Mandich]

Nobody picked Tyson Chandler, who didn't make the all-star team despite being the best center in the league this season.

Are you fucking kidding me ?

[Andrew]

Going back to benji's question of "by whom": is it fair to say players are overrated by a vocal minority and underrated by an ignorant (for lack of a better word) majority? If so, has underrated come to mean "overlooked and worthy of higher praise", with overrated becoming a synonym for "always talked about but not criticised enough"?

[airBerlin]

To those saying that Chandler is the best center this season... If you trade him to Orlando for Howard, do the Magic get better or worse?

[NovU]

You are just not getting it. Chandler is not a better player than Howard. But having a better season, meaning doing more with the minutes given.

[airBerlin]

So he does more than Howard does but he doesn't improve Orlando if they swapped teams.
Got it.

[NovU]

So here comes another 'what if' argument.
Got it.

But my claim was based on what Chandler has done so far in this season.

[Sauru]

can we call kobe overrated since people keep comparing him to jordan?

[rise]

Nobody picked Tyson Chandler, who didn't make the all-star team despite being the best center in the league this season.

Really dude? Tyson Chandler is not underrated; he's properly rated. Other than Dirk, he was the reason Dallas won the title last year. And because of his play last year, the Knicks stupidly overpaid him. I love Chandler as much as the next guy, but he's not worth $15 million a year. That's superstar money.

You don't think the 2nd or 3rd best center in the NBA deserves superstar money? With the way he's been playing, he's proved to be worth every penny. He's playing his usual All-Defensive Team -caliber defense, while being one of the most efficient offensive players in the league. He doesn't take bad shots, doesn't turn the ball over much, gets a lot of boards on both ends, and shoots 71% from the field. I just can't believe he was snubbed from the ASG for Roy Hibbert.

[benji]

I just can't believe he was snubbed from the ASG for Roy Hibbert.

This is the result of you not being cynical and skeptical about life enough yet, but I know you have to take care of your own trash so you don't have the time.

The Knicks already had a player in Carmelo, the Pacers needed representation since the Knicks stunk and they were "surprisingly" winning, thus Roy Hibbert is an All-Star.

can we call kobe overrated since people keep comparing him to jordan?

[Mandich]

You are just not getting it. Chandler is not a better player than Howard. But having a better season, meaning doing more with the minutes given.

Are YOU fucking kidding me ?