Bulls vs. Heat Observations

[air gordon]

Just a possibility I thought of, Battier and Jason Williams for a package involving Jay Williams? Jason has been looking really solid, but I'm not sure if he'll ever shake his tag... so West might look to offload him when he can. He could play off the bench for the Bulls.

Battier would be a great fit. as it seems he is a willing defender and doesn't complain about lack of shots. but i don't think the bulls would be interested in white chocolate.

If they can't get Battier, i think either turkoglu or Posey would be solid pickups. I'm not sure what they could give Sacramento (maybe Bulls upcoming 1st pick, providing it isn't in the top 3, and something else) but they could offer rose for rice (who's contract they will dump when it expires) and posey.

[Andrew]

I wouldn't trade Rose for Rice and Posey - I feel the Bulls would benefit from keeping Jalen, at least for now.

[EGarrett]

Looks like I missed something while I was out...

It seems like the issue at hand is Jamal Crawford's recent hot streak, and whether it means that the Bulls should trade Jay Williams.

I agree with the person who pointed out that Crawford is already in his 3rd season in the league while Williams is still a rookie. Considering that, it's no surprise that Crawford looks better.

Someone else also pointed out that Jay was supposed to be an impact player this year. Keep in mind that Jay is learning the hardest position in basketball, in the hardest offensive system in basketball...and is adjusting to a new level of play, a season length that's nearly three times longer than he's ever played before, and a new life in a new city. Personally, I think it takes an impact player to deal with that AND take the starting position from a player with that much more experience.

If you're going to trade your rookie starter because he gets tired at mid-season and you have a veteran who is producing slightly better (slightly, remember Jay had a triple-double against Kidd early in the year)...then you've traded away basically every superstar in the league in their early form.

The Bulls need to keep Jay and find a way for them both to coexist before they make rash decisions.

[Andrew]

If you're going to trade your rookie starter because he gets tired at mid-season and you have a veteran who is producing slightly better (slightly, remember Jay had a triple-double against Kidd early in the year)...then you've traded away basically every superstar in the league in their early form.

Agree wholeheartedly. Gone are the days of rookies like Michael, Larry and Magic who can come in and immediately show signs of greatness and dominance. And long gone are the days of a Wilt Chamberlain-type rookie. There needs to be some patience shown, especially with rookie PGs (who as EG pointed out, are learning the hardest position in the pro ranks for a player coming out of college).

Of course, there's the whole player dissatisfaction ("Play me or trade me") and player given a lot of time but continually falters scenarios which put pressure on everyone to make the situation work else drastic changes be made.

I think you summed it up pretty well in that last line EG. The Bulls need to wait a little longer and try to make it work before they make a hasty decision, which results in another team benefiting from their impatience.

[Rens]

Someone else also pointed out that Jay was supposed to be an impact player this year. Keep in mind that Jay is learning the hardest position in basketball, in the hardest offensive system in basketball...and is adjusting to a new level of play, a season length that's nearly three times longer than he's ever played before, and a new life in a new city. Personally, I think it takes an impact player to deal with that AND take the starting position from a player with that much more experience.

All that was thought of when people called him an impact player though.. or at least you'd think the experts would know PG is the hardest position to come in, but they still called him an impact player.

[air gordon]

my statement of trading williams was just to stir the pot

EGarrett: from reading your other posts in this forum, you seem to have a good knowledge of the nba game and its players. but your latest points are off IMO and i disagree (nothing personal, eh?):

Keep in mind that Jay is learning the hardest position in basketball, in the hardest offensive system in basketball

as mentioned earlier, the bulls hardly run the triangle anymore.

I think it takes an impact player to...take the starting position from a player with that much more experience

williams' and crawford's stats were very similar in preseason play. neither had a decided edge over the other. it was supposed to be a competition but people around Bulls camp knew Williams was going to get the starting PG no matter what: The player labeled 'most nba ready player that will make an impact' with the great basketball pedigree couldn't beatout an unproven pg for the starting spot?! Bulls management knew that wouldn't go well with Williams' psyche (sp?).

If you're going to trade your rookie starter because he gets tired at mid-season and you have a veteran who is producing slightly better (slightly, remember Jay had a triple-double against Kidd early in the year)...then you've traded away basically every superstar in the league in their early form.

even before williams hit the wall, his play was disappointing. let's compare the the stats of the two (as starters only):

williams- 9.7ppg, 37.2 fg%, 25.9 3fg%, 61.3 ft%, 2.9 reb, 4.9apg, 2.4TO
crawford 15.1ppg, 43.5 fg%, 37.8 3fg%, 83. ft%, 3.1 reb, 6.0apg, 1.8TO
(stats taken from fantasysports.yahoo.com)
crawford decidedly has the advantage stat-wise and not to mention the team record is better when crawford has been the starting PG. Jay-will put up a 3Xdouble? Crawford almost posted one against the Knicks: 22pts, 10assists, 9rebs.... producing slightly better?

honestly, did anyone expect Williams to struggle THIS much? so now out come these excuses of "it's a hard adjustment to the pro level game", "Pg is hardest position to learn", etc.. i think it's all BS IMO. Stephon Marbury, who Williams was compared to, who came out earlier then williams, put up decent numbers (better then williams). they weren't spectacular either and you didn't hear marbury crying and the media making excuses for his play. I'm not saying williams is a bust, i would love to see williams turn out to be marbury-type player. I'm just sick of hearing people make excuses up for Williams' disappointing play. and also I don't want crawford to be given an unfair opportunity at the starting PG with the bulls

[Colin]

If you're going to trade your rookie starter because he gets tired at mid-season and you have a veteran who is producing slightly better (slightly, remember Jay had a triple-double against Kidd early in the year)...then you've traded away basically every superstar in the league in their early form.

Esp. this years MVP Garnett, he only averaged something like 9.7 points and 5-6 rebounds his rookie year. Of course that's out of high school vs. college.

I also think Jay lost a lot of confidence after that bricked free throw in the tournament last year. I remember that game, that sucked.

[Andrew]

I also think Jay lost a lot of confidence after that bricked free throw in the tournament last year. I remember that game, that sucked.

That's a point. A player lacking in confidence is going to be hesitant, somewhat unproductive and will not fulfil their potential. Marbury is not lacking in confidence, and wasn't back in his rookie season either. I know it sounds like just another excuse for Jay Will, but it's a possibility.

[Andrew]

The Bulls tried starting both Jay and Jamal against the Nets, and it seemed to work, resulting in a 95-86 victory (though since it was a nine point victory, Corie Blount, starting at PF, could claim responsibility ). Crawford had 19 points, 7 assists and 6 rebounds in 44 minutes; Williams had 14 points, 7 assists and 5 rebounds in 31 minutes.

Eddy Curry had 24 points (9/13 FG) and 2 blocks, though only grabbed 5 rebounds in 34 minutes. Not a bad performance by the two players who need to play productive minutes more often, and another good performance by the third year player who has emerged with increased playing time this season.

[air gordon]

andrew you stole my thunder

though erob's migraine amongst numerous injuries forced Cartwright to start them together, it was about time we saw crawford and williams starting in the same backcourt!

this was yet another victory over a playoff bound team. and another comeback win. other things that impressed me:

*the youngsters making big plays down the stretch
*williams playing with great confidence
*curry hitting his ft's
*blount making hustle plays and hitting jumpers!

let's hope reinsdorf hires paxson and gives him free reign with the team. other then the youngsters' development, a key to succeeding next year is finding the right vets to surround the young nucleus.

[Andrew]

They're 29-52 (+8 wins compared to last year), and if they can win their final game (Philadelphia, in Chicago), they'll actually break the 30 win mark. Not a bad season by recent standards, not bad at all.

[Andrew]

Well, the Bulls ended their season on a high note, a 115-103 victory over Philadelphia.

Rose with 20 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists
Jay Will with 14 points and 7 assists
Crawford with 33 points and 8 assists
Curry with 31 points and 5 rebounds before fouling out

Chicago finished with a 30-52 record, their best record since 97/98 (and first season with at least 30 wins since the breakup of the championship squad).

[Clinton]

Why are the Bulls playing like this at the end of the season?? That lineup (take out Blount put in Chandler) should have been the one they ran all year. They have played well with it, the 2 pg backcourt has worked well and Curry is playing strong in the post (14 of 16fgs!!!).

[Andrew]

It is indeed too little, too late. Hopefully this will be the lineup the Bulls go with next season, Jay-Will and Crawford in the backcourt, Rose at SF, Curry at centre and either Chandler or Marshall at PF - whoever can contribute better minutes.

[Rens]

Now all Curry needs is rebounds and defense, good to see him improving though he can be a real force in the East.

[John Mullins]

fizer should be starting at the 4 spot next year

[Andrew]

I forgot about Fizer actually. That lineup wouldn't be bad either, though if Fizer remains the sixth man, he would strengthen the second unit. If Chandler starts but plays poorly, the Bulls would be able to go to the bench with confidence, but Chandler might be a bit shaky as a backup. It wouldn't hurt his development and confidence to start either.

That said, if Fizer's play next season is worthy of starting and playing starter's minutes, he should get the opportunity.

[mp3]

if i was big bill, then this is who id go with......

C - eddy curry / backup.... tyson chandler
PF - donyell marshall / marcus fizer
SF - jalen rose / eddie robinson
SG - jamal crawford / trenton hassell
PG - jay williams / rick brunson

but if i really was bill cartwright id trade eddy curry , marcus fizers and jamal crawford to the knicks

[Andrew]

Yeah, that's similar to what I would run with as well, though I'd prefer a better backup PG than Brunson.

but if i really was bill cartwright id trade eddy curry , marcus fizers and jamal crawford to the knicks

Nah, then you'd be Jerry Krause...fortunately, he's gone.

[mp3]

Iam sure i read somewhere that Jerry Krause drafted fizer as part of a trade he had in mind but fell apart, i always wondered why the bulls drafted him after taking Brand the year before. Id like to see more of fizer next year, i got only one bulls pontel vid this year ( bulls v hawks & bulls v wizards) and fizer was great in both games but he didnt seem like he belonged in that team, they had one set of offence's with him in the game and another for when he was out.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I believe he wanted Mike Miller. Of course, since the Bulls had the 4th pick and Orlando took Miller with the 5th, Krause could have just drafted Miller himself, but that would have been too easy.

[air gordon]

i had heard a rumor that orlando wanted fizer and that chicago wanted to draft miles.

L.A. threw a hex in both team's plans by drafting miles. magic thought the bulls were going to draft mihm. the bulls definitely did not need a pf since they had just drafted Brand. but i'm guessing krause picked fizer in hopes of trading him for either miles or miller + a little something else. the clips & magic at the time did need a PF. the deal never happened so the bulls got stuck with fizer.

just a rumor...

[Andrew]

That might be the scenario I was thinking of.

[John Mullins]

i wouldn't trade fizer for miles and miller

[mp3]

imo... next year, if given the playing time fizer will be named m.i.p