Zoom's 'What If' Thread

Thanks a lot Axel... I don't think I SPAM as people have accused me or at least implied of in other threads. Maybe one or two posts may be a little to the side, I don't think I'm doing it on purpose to up the count.

And with MJ, I just was so surprised that I never noticed how good the other teams were. Especially the Jazz. Maybe I'm just blind/arrogant and partly because I didn't follow the sport then but I never knew how good they were. From the record to how they got to the Finals. I'm sure that if they did win the Finals once, they would be spoken off higher than they actually are. If it wasn't for MJ leading his team and running into the Jazz, I have no doubt the Jazz 'leagcy' would have been a lot more respected/spoken of.

What If They Didn't Get... Part One



What if they didn't get injured? In our first installment of this question, I will be asking if these players of the 90s never got injured; where would they be at now. The players I wanted to focus on are: Ron Harper, Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, and Antonio McDyess (He was injured in 2001...).

- Would they have won championships? If so, with whom and how many?
- How could they have impacted the NBA in terms of the NBA's advertising? IE. What player would they most likely be matched up to in order for the NBA to create hype?
- How do you think they would have played individually? Star, All-Star or Hall of Famer level?

The four I have mentioned are only a few. There have been other players who have had disease or injury but these four pop out into my mind first. Feel free to discuss other players though.

These are the teams the players were on just before they got injured:

Ron Harper: Clippers
Penny Hardaway: Shaq-less Magic
Grant Hill: Pistons... unsure if the injury made him demand a trade or if it was the fact that Detroit didn't get anywhere in the postseason
Antonio McDyess: Nuggets

Last edited by Zoom on Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

i think Orlando would have been serious threats if Grant Hill wasn't injured.. i don't think Ron Harper would have gon to the Bulls had he not been injured..the other two im not sure

EDIT: damn you are catching up with my post count and ive been here like a year

I think Ron Harper would have been what he was before the injury- a borderline all star. he played on those crappy Clipper teams so he wouldn't be getting much exposure in the 1st place

Penny- my guess is that he would be a perennial member of the all NBA or 2nd all NBA team. hard to tell what kind of success the Magic were going to have since Ho Grant was heading towards the downside of his career, Nick Anderson started getting scared of shooting fts and got depressed, and Dennis Scott was getting fatter. In terms of marketing, Penny already had the best commercials- him and the Chris Rock voiced "lil Penny". if he didnt get hurt he'd be a big player in the endorsement side

Grant Hill- i think Grant Hill would have gotten injured one way or another. He was one of the golden boys of the league and there was so much on pressure on him to "lead" a team into postseason success that he forced himself to play on his broken ankle even though he knew it would hurt in the longterm. And that team around him at the time of his injury weren't world beaters. but maybe someone like ben could elaborate more on this. as for the marketing. see penny

have no clue about McDyess

Ron Harper: Would have stayed with the Clippers and finished his career riding the bench of a playoff team hoping to get a ring. He would be a fringe All-Star as air_gordon says, possibly making the All-Star team in the mid 90s. I think he could have finished as the Clippers' All-time leading scorer but I don't know who that is! Just pointing out, I think it was before he got injured, in that season he averaged 22, 7 and 7...

Penny Hardaway: Would have enjoyed multiple All-star appearances. With Orlando's team of the mid 90s breaking down, Penny's presence would have helped to soften the effect of those players leaving. Along with new players joining the team, whoever they would be, i think Penny would have been a good enough leader to help the team stay consistent and make the playoffs.

Grant Hill: Well, if he never got injured as badly (If he never played hurt either), I think he would have stayed in Detroit and consistently have led his mediocre teams into the second round of the playoffs and maybe eventually make 1 appearance in the Eastern Conference Finals. Eventually, the Pistons would have gotten at least some better players, Grant Hill would have led the Pistons to the NBA Finals but lose to whoever they would play from the West. Also, I think he would have been amongst the top vote getters for the MVP award at least 2 or 3 times depending on how good his teams would 'hypothetically' be. Still, if Grant Hill never got hurt, I think he would have been a hall of fame player indeed.

Antonio McDyess: In perhaps one of hsi best statistical seasons, he averaged 21 ppg and 12 rpg but his team had a 40-42 record. At the time, they were 11 games from the 8th seed. The Western Conference was that weak... The next season the Nuggets won just 27 games. That shows Dice's improtance to his team. Speaking of the Nuggets, they had a pretty decent team. Juwan Howard, Nick Van Exel, Raef Lafrentz, Voshon Lenard, James Posey. I think that with the right moves in the draft and in free agency and the fact that Dice was only 26, the Nuggets would have gotten better with experience and time together. Maybe it would have taken them just 1 or 2 more seasons to get into the playoffs as a lower seed. I think that individually, Dice would have cemented himself alongside KG as one of the most explosive inside players. I would imagine a season of averaging 25 and 12 but since his teams were never as strong as the other teams, making the playoffs would have been difficult. That would also affect his chances of winning an MVP award. Provided his teams were good enough, I think he would have challeneged Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett for the hardware.

You left out really the only reason Dice never became a stud perrenial allstar, his knee injury issues. I believe it was either 2001 or 2002 when he had his first knee surgery, and he's never been the same. I believe the same thing that happened to Dice will happen to Amare Stoudamire. It is very hard to recover after having extensive knee surgeries and when you continue to re-injure them, you know it is something you'll never get over. When Stoudamire came back for a couple games last year and injured the other knee, that's when I figured he would never be the same.

Yeah Indy, forgot to say that. Thing with Dice is that he improved a bit every season... started to get settled back into the Denver team then the injury came. Bye bye career as a possible future All-Star... I agree... I think Amare is unfortuantely headed for that same path. He just needs to reinvent his game much like how Dice has and how Grant Hill has. Amare can still be effective/good but he won't 'dominate' like how many thought he would before the injury/surgery.

What If They Didn't Get... Part Two



What if they didn't get fat and overweight? In our second installment of this topic, we look at the careers of three players. Vin Baker, Shawn Kemp and Derrick Coleman.

Coleman is reknowned for being lazy and cruising in games in his career. Alcohol abuse and then becomming overwight also led to his career's demise. Kemp had serious alcohol and substance abuse problems. Baker was much the same as he became a heavy drinker and even reached 300 pounds in weight.

The question isn't if each of these players would have been great... it's how great they would have become. Coleman averaged 20 and 10 in three straight NBA seasons from his 2nd to his 4th NBA season. He was looking like he would shape up to really be one of the greats. However, his poor work ethic in the season when the Nets needed him most and lack of leadership led him to be traded for Shawn Bradley of the Sixers. Although Coleman went on to have an average NBA season, being an efficient low post scorer; many agree that he had never gotten close to reaching his potential.

Shawn Kemp reached his peak in the 1995-96 season when he and Gary Payton led the Seattle Sonics to the NBA Finals. At the age of 26, he averaged 20 and 11 combining with The Glove to be one of the league's best and most exciting one-two punches. Contract disputes led to Kemp being traded away and although he played four more good years of basketball; he never had the impact he did on the Sonics. And his very very sudden decline in his first season in Portland put a quick close to his career at age 31 before he stopped playing at 33. There is no doubt that Kemp would have had a longer or at least not as spectacular finish to his career if he hadn't started with substance abuse.

Vin Baker, four consecutive All-Star appearances, stopped by acholism during the NBA lock out season. He was never the same after that year. Coincidence that he was traded to Seattle in the Shawn Kemp deal. Baker's best season came when he averaged 21 ppg and 10 rpg at the age of 25.

Each player has a different case. Coleman crusied during seasons and never put in the 110% effort NBA coaches expected him to put in. Kemp did well in Cleveland but his career went horribly downhill once he joined the Blazers. Baker's alcoholism took over him in the season after his fourth straight All-Star appearance.

- How good do you think these players would have been?
- How would they be remembered if they had never did what they had done?

My thoughts:

Coleman: If he wasn't lazy, he could have been the All-Star leader the Nets needed at a time where Drazen Petrovic had just died and the team traded most of their old roster for a new squad. Coleman would have averaged anything between 25-30 points a game along with maybe 12 rebounds a game. His low post game along with his jumper would have allowed him to stand out even more if he tried. Basically, if he cruised and still averaged a double double, then that's pretty scary. He only made one All-star team- at the start of his career... he no doubt had the potential to become an All-Star player for many years and might even be today considered one of the greatest big men of his time.

Kemp: He was traded to the Blazers for Brian Grant. Considering that he was an All-Star in Cleveland, you would think that he would have been a big upgrade over Grant and would have helped Portland a lot more than he did. The team was the 7th seed in the West; winning 50 games. The roster was pretty damn good with Sheed, Smith, Stoudamire, Wells, Sabonis, Pippen, Dale Davis and Kemp himself. If Kemp had provided anything close to his previous season's 18 ppg and 9 rpg... anything better than the 6.5 and 3.8 he averaged in Portland, the Blazers could have possibly outperfromed some other teams in the West. Kemp's problems put a quick close on his career as stated above and perhaps it was nearly time to go out but his 'story' has been tarnished by this. He is maybe as well known for leading the Sonics to the NBA Finals as he is for his problems. A sad ending to a career that looked promising... if this didn't happen, I think that Kemp would have been able to help the Blazers get back to the Western Conference Finals.

Baker: The same goes for Vin Baker. I think that he would have cemented his status as one of the best Sonics in their team's history if drinking never got in the way. Vin Baker would have been capable of taking Kemp's place on the team (as he did in his first season there) and along with Gary Payton and the other Sonics, Seattle would have been competitive up to at least the early 2000s.

All in all, I think Coleman would have been a future hall of famer, Kemp would have had a more glorious finish to his career and Baker would have been one of the Sonics' best ever players.

Last edited by Zoom on Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Baker was a 4-time All-Star? That's new to me....

McDyess was Shawn Kemp V2.0 before Amare......the guy had ridiculous hops, and used them for rebounding, blocking and some amazing alley-oops.

Coleman is one of the All-Time Great PF's from college. Out of your list of 3, he should have potentially been the best out of that. Coleman is lazy & you can't really say, what if he wasn't lazy, because he was. He got by on natural ability, but his attitude was always an issue. He could have been better, All-Star for more years, but not All-Time Great.

Kemp would have been HOF had he not demanded trade out of Seattle & hadn't of put on weight. He was starting to hit his strides in 96 Finals as he had developed a midrange game & Gary Payton hit his peak in the late 90s. Those two probably would've taken the Sonics back to the Finals one more time, possibly for a title.

As for Baker, he's a real shame. He was awesome with Bucks, but once traded to Seattle, I don't know what happened to him. I think he might have had a good season or two in Seattle, then he had the decline, starting with FT's & confidence, & he never recovered. Had he not had alcohol problems, I think he could've been a 6 time All-Star, but not HOF level. He'd still be in league as a 6th man in a McDyess-like role. I think his style of game was suited to slower-paced, more half-court oriented style of the Eastern Conference, & I really don't think the Bucks should have traded him away to tell you the truth. He wasn't a Western Conference type PF at all & it showed.

Just my take though, I'm sure someone can clear me up more on Derrick Coleman.

Kemp: He was traded to the Blazers for Brian Grant....

He did? I though Grant signed with Miami. Kinda off topic but....

Coleman is one of the All-Time Great PF's from college. Out of your list of 3, he should have potentially been the best out of that. Coleman is lazy & you can't really say, what if he wasn't lazy, because he was. He got by on natural ability, but his attitude was always an issue. He could have been better, All-Star for more years, but not All-Time Great.

Thing is, many claim he never worked hard, didn't take the role of the leader of the team in New Jersey. The team was practically handed over to Coleman. He could have 'dominated' in the paint and put up great individual numbers if he wasn't lazy (that led to drinking problems and eating problems too)... I think Coleman could have been HOF material.

Kemp would have been HOF had he not demanded trade out of Seattle & hadn't of put on weight. He was starting to hit his strides in 96 Finals as he had developed a midrange game & Gary Payton hit his peak in the late 90s. Those two probably would've taken the Sonics back to the Finals one more time, possibly for a title.

On the note of Kemp leaving Seattle, you got to blame management for opting not to give him a pay rise I guess... they gave a raise to some reserve player but not to Kemp. If Kemp was in Seattle, perhaps he and GP would have made the Finals to play the Bulls again. However, the question is what if they didn't get fat/lazy? So basically, the whole leaving Seattle thing is a whole different scenario.

As for Baker, he's a real shame. He was awesome with Bucks, but once traded to Seattle, I don't know what happened to him. I think he might have had a good season or two in Seattle, then he had the decline, starting with FT's & confidence, & he never recovered. Had he not had alcohol problems, I think he could've been a 6 time All-Star, but not HOF level. He'd still be in league as a 6th man in a McDyess-like role. I think his style of game was suited to slower-paced, more half-court oriented style of the Eastern Conference, & I really don't think the Bucks should have traded him away to tell you the truth. He wasn't a Western Conference type PF at all & it showed.

Indeed he had two more good seasons with the Sonics. His decline came abruptly in the lockout season... very sad because he was looking like he would be a great player for his whole career. Maybe you can blame Kemp for the trade happening. I don't think he would have been HOF either... but if he stayed consistent and didn't get derailed by his other issues, I think he would have had his jersey retired by Seattle one day...

He did? I though Grant signed with Miami. Kinda off topic but....

Oops, my bad Here is waht really happened: Traded by the Cavaliers to the Portland Trail Blazers as part of three-way deal in which the Trail Blazers sent Brian Grant to the Miami Heat, the Heat sent Chris Gatling, Clarence Weatherspoon, a future first-round draft choice and cash to the Cavaliers, and the Trail Blazers sent Gary Grant to the Cavaliers on 8/30/00 (Courtesy of NBA.com)

What If They Didn't Get... Part Three



Out third and final installment is the question of... What if they didn't die? A sort of a sad story for players such as Malik Sealy, Reggie Lewis who tragically pass away however; no disrespect to the two mentioned, but it is in a sence much more tragic when players with a lot of promise suddenly pass away. To put in in these words, at least Sealy and Lewis had already played a while in the NBA.

For the two players Drazen Petrovic and Len Bias tragically pass away, it leaves many people with a sense on intrigue, thinking of what may have become of those two players. That is the question... what if Len Bias and Drazen Petrovic didn't die...

- What would they have acheived in the NBA?
- Individually? What about their teams?
- Do you think they were good enough to change the face of basketball?

My answer:

Drazen: I feel that he would have been great. He was a very efficient scorer and there was nowhere to go but up. Averaging about 22 points a game on 52% and 45% from the three point line, he was among the Top 15 NBA scorers. More importantly, Drazen helped the Nets win more games and his leadership was shown when he played for Crotia leading his team to silver medals at the 92 Olympics... losing only to Team USA.

Considering that Drazen was entering the age of 29 (unfortunately he never got there...), he was understandably in his prime. Individually, I believe he could have challenged to win a scoring title as the leader of the Nets. His leadership would have helped the Nets succeed in the playoffs and provded that the team had the right make up, they could have made the Eastern Conference Finals... you never know.

All-NBA selections and a possible nomination for MVP could have been on the books but the individual acolades end there. Drazen was just a scorer but I do admit he was a great at that. What he would bring most is leadership, flare and an ability to light up any team on any night.

I'm not sure if he would have been remembered as a pioneer in bringing Euro players to the NBA if he hadn't died but I'm sure he would be recognised as one of the best Euro players to ever crossover to the NBA. And if he hadn't died, I'm sure he may have one day made the Hall of Fame. To be honest though, if he didn't die, it's possible he wouldn't have made the HOF. You know how guys like Tupac become famous after they die... perhaps it's the same with Drazen...

Bias: Len Bias is interesting... sad story of a good kid who overdosed on drugs. If he ever made the NBA and his game translated into good results, the Celtics would have lasted into the mid 90s. Imagine MJ v Bias battles... in the playoffs, the Eastern confernece finals... Many still believe Bird and McHale's careers would have been prolonged with a young Bias helping to play their minutes... and the Celtics' legacy would have survived for a longer time.

Len Bias is a tough on and maybe there are more people who can help answer the question... it's hard to tell what would have happened. After all, we're only dealing with hypotheticals... I guess it just shows what a waste of life it was to lose a guy like Len Bias. Then again, losing any life is sad...

The best case scenario definitely was for Bias to challenge Jordan succesfully during the 90s and contend with Jordan for the scoring title. Bias was a talented talented athlete and the sky seemed to be the limit for him. Perhaps Bias could have contended for an MVP award and make the Hall of Fame... we will never know though.

i'm pretty sure Petrovic made one of the All-NBA teams in 92.

Bias is sort of pointless to talk about because it is all speculation. He could have been a superstar, or he could have been a Danny Manning type player. Danny was amazing in college, looked like he was the future of the league, and had a good NBA career but never became that superstar guy that he was expected to be.

Petrovic however, was quite a star. I remember he used to get so hot sometimes that team's would double team him on the perimiter, behind the three point line. Nobody is good enough to draw double team's that far away from the basket now, even with the implementation of the zone.

i'm pretty sure Petrovic made one of the All-NBA teams in 92.

He made the third team but many felt he was snubbed from the All-Star team. He was the only player out of the top 15 league scorers not to make an All-Star team.

Petro would've helped Kenny Anderson & Derrick Coleman's careers immensely....
Bias would've starred for Celtics & they would have stayed near top half of East for a lot longer....
Lewis would've starred as well, same reason as for Celtics....
Sealy would've helped Timberwolves get over hump & make NBA Finals....

although there are big IF's in all arguents....

Bobby Phills?

I forgot bout Bobby... died in a drag race with David Wesley. Sad story too He aspired to be a vet after he retired... thought that I would point that out. He was playing for the Hornets at the time. Not sure how he would have helped them... someone can help answer that!

What If Patrick Ewing Had a Sidekick



NOTE: This is to Knicks fans... my condolances for your team not doing so well in recent years...

When Gotham City had a big Gorilla man by the name of Patrick Ewing (I wouldn't go as far as calling him the Caped Crusader )... they never saw a Robin-type figure appear. If Patrick Ewing had a sidekick... would the Knicks have done more things? What if Patrick Ewing and the Knicks had a reliable second option:

- How would the Knicks have done?
- What skills would the perfect compliment need to have?
- What player; past or present, would you think best suits Ewing? And what present from that era would have been a possible player to compliment the big man?
- Would they have been successful? If so or if not, how would Ewing be remembered today?

I forgot bout Bobby... died in a drag race with David Wesley. Sad story too He aspired to be a vet after he retired... thought that I would point that out. He was playing for the Hornets at the time. Not sure how he would have helped them... someone can help answer that!

WESLEY bumped BOBBY's car and it turned sideways because they bet theyre whole one year salary on it.. Hahaha.. JUST KIDDING

*************************
How about WHAT IF LEBRON WADE AND CARMELO were on the same TEAM?

I forgot bout Bobby... died in a drag race with David Wesley. Sad story too He aspired to be a vet after he retired... thought that I would point that out. He was playing for the Hornets at the time. Not sure how he would have helped them... someone can help answer that!

WESLEY bumped BOBBY's car and it turned sideways because they bet theyre whole one year salary on it.. Hahaha.. JUST KIDDING

Honestly, you deserve to be banned just for joking about that, let alone all the spamming you've done.

Unfortunately I don't really know much about Patrick Ewing, he was before I started watching the NBA. But obviously every big man needs a complimentary guard player. Someone with good shooting ability, and driving ability as well, to make the most of double teams. Kobe - Shaq, Wade - Shaq, T-Mac - Yao, Magic - Kareem, Drexler - Olajuwon, etc etc.

theflash02, please refrain from posting in my thread. Oh, what about you refrain from posting on this forum.

And Axel... you know bout the Ewing theory at least right?

I'd say John Starks was a pretty serviceable sidekick. He had some big years. Just caught up on this thread and now I'm depressed about Len Bias