article: The Death of Defense

[air gordon]

Eugene...

personally, i don't see how a few teams can affect the whole dynamic of the league-especially the 'imitators' you speak of. which brings up an interesting question- what's your opinion of 'imitators' of phoenix's style?

as others have mentioned- i think a lot fans appreciate the Pistons/and or Spurs style of play. they are both fundamentally sound teams... which is something that's gets somewhat pushed aside since "and-1"/highlight reel plays get the attention from media outlets. in fact, i think players like supposed rugged players like Ben Wallace have been a big positive to this league- he made playing defense 'popular' again... the league needs more teams like them, not some overhyped team like Cleveland that couldn't score 10pts in the quarter of a playoff game.

i agree the league has always been about the stars. you should realize that the golden era (which i believe ran from the mid 80s to the late 90's), was during an era where physical play wasn't frowned upon.. but actually encouraged. the league, the stars flourished "in spite" of it. Jordan was still averaging over 30ppg and winning championships, even with Dumars handchecking him on the 3pt line and a slew of thugs in Laimbeer, Dumars, Salley, and in even Zeke waiting in the paint.

Blame Jerry West for Cardinal's contract, not slower pace or whatever hehe. Seriously- there are a lot of players in the league that are mediocre, but since they can jump high or run fast they are still in the league. i can understand why teams value players that are fundamentally sound with good attitudes, like Cardinal. but i don't know- maybe you prefer punks like Darius Miles?

and yes, Cardinal could have been Kurt Rambis.. and Ryan Bowen would be probably what he is now- a bench player who may see extra time due to another players injury

now- how much skill is it for an offensive player to be able to carry/double dribble the ball en route to the basket? or for a player to run someone over on his way to the basket. it goes both ways. and as i have mentioned in another thread, historically organized basketball has passed rules to give offfensive players the edge

ugly basketball is mediocre players trying to wrestle you, like the fratello Cavs. but don't lump everyone else with them.

and count me in as a fan for the old school type games. back then players were actually allowed to play and things like a consistent mid range jump shot and playing off the ball existed

[Eugene]

Well, I appreciate the Pistons and Spurs, too. But what they do is more of an acquired taste, I think. Basketball appeals to the masses because of its astheticism. I'm not embarrassed that that's what drew me in the first place, the showmanship and excitement.

Both of which really comes from guard play. And I think limiting the contact on the perimeter is starting to bring that back. But I'm not going to beat a dead horse. I've made my point and it's up to you to disagree (or agree for the very few of you).

But my question is this: a number of people were complaining a couple of years ago because the scoring was too low, and the game was too slow and physical. Now you're complaining because it's too much geared towards offense? Can't have it both ways.

Air Gordon,

Make no mistake, this is absolutely a copycat league. Back when Jordan won the Championship, the formula was one Alpha Dog, a second banana, and role players. When the Lakers and Spurs won, it was slow it down, pound it in. Detroit--defense and grinding it out. Now with Dallas and Phoenix, everyone's starting to go small and quick. The NBA is a trend-league and a successful team will set a paradigm for what a team has to have to be successful until another team shows that there are, in fact, many ways to win.

And I agree, given the choice to overpay Cardinal or Miles, I'd pick Cardinal, but that doesn't change the fact that he is still overpaid.

[Laxation]

Jerome James is overpaid ... whats your point?

I dont think you even know what you are trying to argue anymore, because you lost me after the 3rd time you changed your contention

[Andrew]

I agree with Matt & Stackmill 100% - they're telling it like it is. Give me an old skool defensive 88-85 battle any day over today's layup clinics. I know many fans were bored with the Spurs-Pistons finals - not me. I grew up watching the old Knicks, so I appreciate team ball and tough hard-nosed 'D'. Thanks to Stern, the NBA has become soft. It's all about marketing with that jerk.

I have to admit I was kind of bored through the first four games of that series. However, it wasn't because of their style of play but simply because they split the first four games with big home wins and when I'm watching a game that doesn't involve the Bulls (who I don't mind seeing win big) I generally prefer the game to be close to the end. The battles in Games 5, 6 and 7 certainly made up for it though, particularly the conclusion of Game 5.

[benji]

1. The Pace of the game increased (91.7 to 92.9). I'm not entirely sure what the numbers mean (according to databaseBasketball.com) because they failed to define it, but I'm guessing it has to do something with the number of possessions over the course of the game.

Of course, if I took the numbers from the other seasons, then I'd have a clearer picture of what happened, but time's a factor and I don't have enough of it. But I admit I was wrong in my perceptions nonetheless.

Key:
Pace = number of possessions per game
Offense = points per 100 possessions
FTA/FGA = free throw attempts per field goal attempt
PFpP = personal fouls per 100 possessions
2P = percent of points scored on two-pointers
3P = ^ three-pointers
FT = ^ free throws

Data:
2005-06 - Pace: 93.02; Offense: 103.4; FTA/FGA: .333; PFpP: .243; 2P: 62.1%; 3P: 17.7%; FT: 20.2%
2003-04 - Pace: 92.70; Offense: 100.0; FTA/FGA: .303; PFpP: .230; 2P: 63.9%; 3P: 16.6%; FT: 19.5%
1999-99 - Pace: 91.60; Offense: 99.23; FTA/FGA: .330; PFpP: .241; 2P: 64.9%; 3P: 14.6%; FT: 20.5%
1993-94 - Pace: 97.84; Offense: 103.3; FTA/FGA: .315; PFpP: .226; 2P: 71.0%; 3P: 9.73%; FT: 19.3%
1988-89 - Pace: 103.7; Offense: 104.6; FTA/FGA: .324; PFpP: .227; 2P: 73.9%; 3P: 5.80%; FT: 20.3%
1983-84 - Pace: 104.2; Offense: 104.7; FTA/FGA: .336; PFpP: .245; 2P: 77.9%; 3P: 1.63%; FT: 20.5%
1978-79 - Pace: 108.6; Offense: 101.1; FTA/FGA: .309; PFpP: .232; 2P: 80.7%; 3P: -N/A-; FT: 19.3%

Analysis: Offensive is effectively where it's been historically (especially if one would assume equal amounts of three pointers in past years) while the pace continues to comb near the depths of the 40s and 50s. Foul rates appear to be relatively close to the numbers over the last 30 years close to the sample's average of .321 for FTA/FGA and .234 for PFpP. The amount of points scored off free-throws is amazingly consistant near the average of 19.9%. The biggest change is the rise of the three pointer. From 2003-04 the amount of fouls has appeared to increase, but so has the increase of three pointers and the pace. While offense has jumped a huge amount (a three point differential for a team would be worth roughly 8 wins). The foul rates today are almost exactly the same as in '83-'84 with there being slightly more fouls 22 years ago.

[air gordon]

Make no mistake, this is absolutely a copycat league. Back when Jordan won the Championship, the formula was one Alpha Dog, a second banana, and role players. When the Lakers and Spurs won, it was slow it down, pound it in. Detroit--defense and grinding it out. Now with Dallas and Phoenix, everyone's starting to go small and quick. The NBA is a trend-league and a successful team will set a paradigm for what a team has to have to be successful until another team shows that there are, in fact, many ways to win.

And I agree, given the choice to overpay Cardinal or Miles, I'd pick Cardinal, but that doesn't change the fact that he is still overpaid.

i wouldn't say that the Bulls, Lakers, or Spurs re-wrote any winning formulas hehe. seriously- most nba champs have the superstar, a great supporting player, and some role players. the only team recently that didnt have that mix was Detroit

also- when the Bulls & Lakers won, no other teams started running the triangle offense

the NBA is somewhat of a copycat/trend league but i think this instance with teams trying to emulate Phoenix- it's more of a lack of talent issue. mediocre teams like GSW and Toronto want a fast tempo because they can't defend. personally i think it's a little strange teams want to be like Phoenix since there are many out there that believe their style doesn't succeed in the postseason

I wouldn't put Dallas in the same boat as Phoenix. they have a very versatile team.. they can beat teams in various ways.. not just by running

everyone's overpaid in the nba

[soilworker]

@eugene if you had read the article which this topic is all about, there was a quote from dumars where he stated that it would be virtually impossible to defend jordan with today's rules.
jordan dominated the 90s with the hand checking rules being legal, he just improved his game to overcome obstacles and that's what i call skill.

btw why wouldn't you want a strong player to use his physical gift? not everyone is gifted with incredible speed or dexterity some are just plain strong and it's their right to use it as a physical attribute, it's like a balancing of traits.

lastly if there were still hand checking rules i think it wouldn't have mattered for lebron as he is gifted in both ways

[Sauru]

last years nba finals proved just how bad the nba is now. the refs dont even give teams a chance to play defense. people would breathe on wade and he was at the line shooting. he took flopping to new heights, reggie miller would be proud. it sickens me to see players go to the line over 20 times during a game on bail out calls by the refs. you can see a player like kobe or iverson go 7 for 26 and still end up scoring 39 points.

the problem is the league thinks it needs high scores to get the fans. they think you need a big name player winning it all to draw the crowds. who wants to see a team like the spur or mavs win when you can have kobe, wade,lebron, or some other high profile player win it all. the nba needs to get its shit straight before they start losing the real fans, you know, the ones who actually buy the tickets to the games.

[Laxation]

Heres a new article on the same subject...

http://www.hoopshype.com/columns/caste_hans.htm

A league that once was an equal-opportunity meritocracy where every player, regardless of position, had a fair shot at greatness, now features a rules regime and style of play that grants privileges to perimeter players while rendering interior players – even Shaquille O’Neal – nothing more than dime-a-dozen, foul-plagued grunts.

[Matt]

UBB EQUALS MVP

Consider the Collins twins, Jason and Jarron. On offense, their job is to be run into. On defense, their job is to be run into – and act like that even when barely touched

today he’s more likely to draw a foul for bulldozing or be victimized by a flop.

hahaha, that was a funny ass article.

The number of people that complain that Wade gets calls is climbing high....and that's in the league. And they only mention his name, somethings up.

[maes]

Oh that article is just mean...Shaq Doleac!

His minutes plummeted to 30.6 per game last season because of those whistles as well as unnecessary fouls he committed on defense after Pat Riley turned him into “Shaq Doleac.” All the block/charge collisions the still-spry Shaq is foolishly creating means more fouls and pine time

[Axel]

I agree with the majority here. I can't stand the new officiating. I've been a Heat fan since before Dwyane Wade was even in the league, and the number of FT's Miami used to get was 15 a game. Now it's 30 - 35 consistently. While I love scoring, it has to come with a semblance of defense otherwise the game is lacking. The Suns were the most entertaining to watch in the playoffs because they really stepped their defense up. Often times though, their defense is so bad it feels like you're on a merry go round, and cant get off. THey score. Their opponent scores. They score again. etc etc etc. Same thing goes for Miami. A Heat game has more stop and go action than a football game. Who cares if they score 110 points, but the game takes 3 hours to watch, and 30 of those points are off free throws?

The touch fouls need to be removed. But it wont happen until Stern is out of the league. He's the worst commissioner in sports, bar none. I've never seen a baseball commissioner or football commissioner completely change the way the game is played, every single year. The league never admits to doing anything wrong either.. I'd like to see Stu Jackson ousted as well..

[benji]

Heat FTA/FGA
2006: .363
2005: .387
2004: .298
2003: .259
2002: .267

Are we discounting that the reason the Heat's FT count went up was because they added guys who could get to the line (Wade, Shaq) instead of having guys like Eddie Jones and other players who never ventured inside lead the team in possessions?

Let's also not let perception cloud reality, Wade went to the line at the same rate in the playoffs (indeed, slightly less) as he did all season long. Yes, Games Five and Six of the Finals he went to the line a ton more but two (or even six games from the entire series) games does not indict the other thousand-plus games of a season or the league as a whole.

As I showed above the league's foul rate is basically unchanged from twenty years ago...

Focusing on teams at the extremes like the Heat, a Riley run team powered by two guys who's best games are close to the basket and comparing them to the Suns who's goal is to never foul in order to wear you out with the pace and get the ball back to score again, then lamenting the state of the league ignores the reality that the foul rates have been unchanged since the "glory days" of the 1980s.

The argument a lot of people are making in this thread is ripe with fallacies.

[maes]

Benji, of course the foul rate remains the same throughout the years...because the 6 foul ejection rule hasn't been changed. That rule is what fixes how many fouls can be given. What has changed recently is *what* consititutes a foul, and what is allowable defense.

In the 80s & early 90s the 5 fouls Dennis Rodman would get would be holding, grabbing, etc.. Nowadays, the 5 fouls that a player would get are things like standing too close to a shooter when he shoots, bumping the shooter with your hips while trying to follow him, or accidentally brushing your hand on their leg while you swivel to keep up with them. Basically BS calls that wouldn't stand up in even a pickup game of ball.

BTW Michael Redd just notched 57 points, with the help of 17 free throws. When semi-talented guys like Michael Redd eclipses all of Jordan's records, the BS will really hit the fan.

[kinokong]

i agree that some of the calls are a little bit bs but you really don't have anyone to blame but us and the players. us because we are the ones that want to see a game being played at a fast pace and teams scoring 100 points or players having jordanesque stats.... and you can blame the players for their lack of fundamentals.... i don't care how good your defense is, if a player is skilled enough, he will eventually wear the defender down and find ways to score on you....

[maes]

That's exactly the point, both players & fans want to see a fast paced game, and the new rules kill everything about a faced past game. Because every time a touch foul is called, it's basically a timeout.

Both Phoenix & Seattle play a faced past game, and neither really take advantage of the touch foul rules. Both teams have been called "old school" by the experts.

The only people happy about the new rules are ones that don't play or watch actual games and only look at stats, fantasy leaguers.

[Laxation]

we are the ones that want to see a game being played at a fast pace and teams scoring 100 points or players having jordanesque stats....

I dont

Lots of people dont

[theflash02]

I don't think so either.. So.. kinokong.. BLAST YA ASS OUTTA HERE Ya Heard?