"Hunger Defines Me" Kobe Bryant.

[magius]

Now the difference between what I said and what you said is quite clear. Let me explain. Kobe is the most talked about NBA player since Jordan. Fans really dont know much about him, so thats why they should read what he has to say and try to understand his perspective. Once you do read it, you will learn his desire to win and if you have any background knowledge of kobe, you would know how hard he does work on his game. If you can't respect that, you can't be a true fan of the game. I'm not saying you have to be a fan of his, I personally don't like him and am not a fan of him. But i do appreciate his game and respect him.

you know what? okay lets do this then.

So, first of all, you are saying that alll people who are talked about are people who's views we should try to understand. Okay, but it doesnt mean I neccessarily need to respect it. Is it safe for me to say Hitler was talked about, how about Hussein, even Bush, hell if you want an nba example, artest, rodman. Its a good and impartial thing to try to understand their perspectives, but not a neccessity to respect them because they are talked about.

Then you say that people who are true fans of the nba are people who respect people who have a desire to win and play hard. I don't disagree, but how exactly do you measure desire? from a couple of sentences written on a piece of paper? by the look in kobe's eyes? What is your empirical evidence that kobe works harder than isiah rider? What is your empirical evidence that kobe has more desire than isiah? Its quite possible that isiah has equal desire in both respects to kobe, but an even greater desire to be crazy. How about someone like Mike Tyson who has a desire to win and plays hard, should i disregard all else, and blindly respect him?

Then you make the premise that people who dont personally like a person who is good at what they do should nonetheless respect them. What about a person who is good at commiting suicide, should i respect him?

Now, I know you will say that I am generalizing your argument, but considering your argument is deductive it relies on a global sufficiency. In order for it to be a valid, impartial argument, all premises it presumes must be valid.

Now, why do I think the article is hogwash? because the entire thing is stating the obvious, I don't want to know the obvious... its obvious. And when its not stating the obvious, its making an appeal to the readers emotion to help pat bryant on the back. Why do people hate it when bush talks? Because its so obvious he is meandering over anything that actually matters to absolutely the same point he started at; he talks so much, but says nothing. This is what this article is to me. I have desire. Okay, cool. I have desire. Uh huh. I have desire. Get the fuck over yourself. Then he goes to tell us his sob story which, suprise surprise, is actually a learning experience that turns into rainbows and faeries and umpa lumpas, oh my.

the whole thing is basically akin to a scripted answers to a cliche question taught at interviewer school 101: "what do you think your greatest flaw is".... "oooh, i don't know, I'm a perfectionist." Give me a break. Now, don't get me wrong, I do believe that this is an honest article, but its an honest article written to an adoring crowd. It tells and does not ask anything of itself.

There is absolutely nothing of consequence here worth my admiring or respect; kobe is a basketball player, nothing more, he is no authority on adversity, he is no authority on desire. He's a professional sports player, and a damn good one, thats it. This whole article is his opinion drawn from completely inductive bias reasons. I respect his opinion in respect to the playing of basketball on the court, period.

[Axel]

I agree with the previous comment, "contrived". This sounds like one of those essays I write where I have no idea what to write about, so I just elaborate incessantly on the same thing. It's very easy to write pages and pages of the same rhetorical garbage.

What can I say... I don't like Kobe. Still, it sounds very artificial to me.

[Laxation]

everything he says is exactly what i expect him to say, it is so politically correct i heard michael moore rip a kidney as i read it.

i agree with this. its just not from the heart

[maes]

Not a bad job by his agent, or whoever actually wrote this.

[Fenix]

I think nowhere writes that he actually wrote it, just that it is first-person story.

[BIG GREEN]

I agree with the previous comment, "contrived". This sounds like one of those essays I write where I have no idea what to write about, so I just elaborate incessantly on the same thing. It's very easy to write pages and pages of the same rhetorical garbage.

What can I say... I don't like Kobe. Still, it sounds very artificial to me.

i have to agree with you. This whole essay seems too abstract to me. I dont not like kobe....but i dont like him either. I'm neutral about the dude.

[Matthew]

you know what? okay lets do this then.

Lol wtf, you're an attention whore. You bitch all throughout how you dont want to debate, then when I dont reply, you suddenly change your mind?

So, first of all, you are saying that alll people who are talked about are people who's views we should try to understand. Okay, but it doesnt mean I neccessarily need to respect it. Is it safe for me to say Hitler was talked about, how about Hussein, even Bush, hell if you want an nba example, artest, rodman. Its a good and impartial thing to try to understand their perspectives, but not a neccessity to respect them because they are talked about.

So you're comparing Kobe to Hitler and Sadaam Husein? You're argument means virtually nothing after reading that analogy. As for the rest of that paragraph, did I actually say he should respected for being talked about, or did I say fans should try to understand him before jumping to conculsions about him? It's not that difficult of a concept.

Then you say that people who are true fans of the nba are people who respect people who have a desire to win and play hard. I don't disagree, but how exactly do you measure desire? from a couple of sentences written on a piece of paper? by the look in kobe's eyes? What is your empirical evidence that kobe works harder than isiah rider? What is your empirical evidence that kobe has more desire than isiah? Its quite possible that isiah has equal desire in both respects to kobe, but an even greater desire to be crazy. How about someone like Mike Tyson who has a desire to win and plays hard, should i disregard all else, and blindly respect him?

I judge Kobe as a harder worker than Rider by a few things:
His teamates marvel at how he's the first in the gym shooting and working on his game
Phil Jackson said no longer than one week after the first championship, he was making 2000 jumpshots a day and working out to improve. This improved play is clearly evident as you look at his career.
His defensive work also has improved.

Seriously, you'd have to be blind not to realise he's a hard worker. Either that or incredibly ignorant, as you seem to be.

Then you make the premise that people who dont personally like a person who is good at what they do should nonetheless respect them. What about a person who is good at commiting suicide, should i respect him?

Once again, this is basketball, not taking his life. If you truely respect the game, how can you not respect someone who is trying to carry the torch of greatness in a similar way MJ did, through hard work and improvement.

Now, I know you will say that I am generalizing your argument, but considering your argument is deductive it relies on a global sufficiency. In order for it to be a valid, impartial argument, all premises it presumes must be valid.

Lol it would be good if that actually made sense.

Now, why do I think the article is hogwash? because the entire thing is stating the obvious, I don't want to know the obvious... its obvious. And when its not stating the obvious, its making an appeal to the readers emotion to help pat bryant on the back. Why do people hate it when bush talks? Because its so obvious he is meandering over anything that actually matters to absolutely the same point he started at; he talks so much, but says nothing. This is what this article is to me. I have desire. Okay, cool. I have desire. Uh huh. I have desire. Get the fuck over yourself. Then he goes to tell us his sob story which, suprise surprise, is actually a learning experience that turns into rainbows and faeries and umpa lumpas, oh my.

Its obvious that you dislike Kobe, and it's clear you carry that arrogance into this argument. You say it was obvious? Maybe, just maybe, you should read it again. The article was about how he feels towards basketball and life. Alot of people blame Kobe for not putting the game first ("he broke the lakers up, he's a ballhog" etc). He's trying to let fans understand exactly how he feels towards these issues, and you say its contrived? What a load of bullshit. I say everything you say is contrived becuase of your hatred towards kobe.

There is absolutely nothing of consequence here worth my admiring or respect; kobe is a basketball player, nothing more, he is no authority on adversity, he is no authority on desire. He's a professional sports player, and a damn good one, thats it. This whole article is his opinion drawn from completely inductive bias reasons. I respect his opinion in respect to the playing of basketball on the court, period.

That type of arrogance is what I was saying before. Oh wait, Mark Cuban has done more for the game than Kobe ever has!! lol.. I wonder how many sport teams you've ever played for.

[Num33Baller]

How can you say he doesn't help his teamates? He won 3 rings rings with shaq. How many did shaq win alongside Wade and Penny? Zero.

The inability to motivate others? He isn't the coach, or a motivational speaker. The game itself should be all the motivation needed. As for being a loner, maybe he is. Maybe he does think he is better than his teamates. But the reality is that he is. Myabe he doesnt respect them becuase they dont work as hard as him? Maybe all he cares about is winning, and not being a funny guy or making friendships.

Or maybe he is completely misunderstood? I don't like him, but you have to love him if you follow the NBA.

How many times has Kobe made it to the finals without shaq?

Never.

How many times has Shaq made it to the finals without kobe?

Once, almost twice.

[magius]

first, stop trying to attack me personally and try attacking the argument for a change. second, how did i know you stopped posting? i just felt like arguing, its not like i stalk you and wait for you to not be around to post. come on. obviously all your trying to do is break me down to raise the strength of your argument.

So you're comparing Kobe to Hitler and Sadaam Husein? You're argument means virtually nothing after reading that analogy. As for the rest of that paragraph, did I actually say he should respected for being talked about, or did I say fans should try to understand him before jumping to conculsions about him? It's not that difficult of a concept.

correct, you said fans should try to understand him before jumping to conclusions, my analogy is faulty. sorry.

I judge Kobe as a harder worker than Rider by a few things:
His teamates marvel at how he's the first in the gym shooting and working on his game
Phil Jackson said no longer than one week after the first championship, he was making 2000 jumpshots a day and working out to improve. This improved play is clearly evident as you look at his career.
His defensive work also has improved.

Seriously, you'd have to be blind not to realise he's a hard worker. Either that or incredibly ignorant, as you seem to be.

I never said he wasn't a hard worker, i asked you what your evidence was. So, your telling me that your evidence that kobe is a hard worker is that his teammates and coach say he is? Do you honestly think they would say anything else about the man who could oust shaq. You know what? My Mother says I'm a hard worker. everyone bow down and respect me.

Look, I know that kobe is a hard worker and that he has a desire to win and I never said otherwise....but what i'm saying is that at one point Mike Tyson was also a hard worker and also had incredible desire to win. should i respect him for those qualities alone? There are many people in this world not named kobe who are just as hard workers and have just as much desire, and more often than not, I will always respect what ability that translates to, but it doesnt mean I need to respect the person.

Once again, this is basketball, not taking his life. If you truely respect the game, how can you not respect someone who is trying to carry the torch of greatness in a similar way MJ did, through hard work and improvement.

Now, I know you will say that I am generalizing your argument, but considering your argument is deductive it relies on a global sufficiency. In order for it to be a valid, impartial argument, all premises it presumes must be valid.

Lol it would be good if that actually made sense.

Do you even understand what critical thinking is? every deductive argument that is valid can be broken down into two premises, and the argument is only as strong as the weakest premise... in your arguments case the hidden premise. Every single unbias deductive argument has a hidden premise that is coined 'generalization'. If you don't understand that then I can't help you.

hell, I'll even cheat it for you and not break it down to your actual premise (which is far easier to falsify): So, all people who respect basketball, are people who respect people who work hard at being great at it. So I should respect a little kid practicing on the street? Should I respect a 40 year old nobody playing pickup games? Hell, by that logic, we should respect the majority of every single player in the nba, because if they didnt work hard, they wouldnt be there in the first place. Who is to say that ron artest isnt 'trying to carry the torch of greatness'? I respect the fact that they work hard, I don't respect them for working hard. get it.

Its obvious that you dislike Kobe, and it's clear you carry that arrogance into this argument. You say it was obvious? Maybe, just maybe, you should read it again. The article was about how he feels towards basketball and life. Alot of people blame Kobe for not putting the game first ("he broke the lakers up, he's a ballhog" etc). He's trying to let fans understand exactly how he feels towards these issues, and you say its contrived? What a load of bullshit. I say everything you say is contrived becuase of your hatred towards kobe.

You say its obvious I dislike kobe? Maybe, just maybe, you should read what i said again. What I'm trying to say is that the article is bad, not that kobe is. If you translate that into one and the same, thats your problem, not mine. Again, the problem is not the fact that he may or may not want to let fans understand him, the problem is how he goes about doing so. Its like when an announcer asks ms. universe contestants if they could change one thing in this world what would it be...... drum roll....... WORLD PEACE! thats what i mean by obvious.

i expect better of you than a response that essentially comes down to an eloquent " kobe hater! 1111!" Listen, I don't hate kobe, i don't know kobe. I respect him as a basketball player, nothing more, if that makes me a hater, so be it.

That type of arrogance is what I was saying before. Oh wait, Mark Cuban has done more for the game than Kobe ever has!! lol.. I wonder how many sport teams you've ever played for.

what arrogance? It's a fact. kobe is not an authority on anything about anything but being a good basketball player, while he may have his opinions on certain things his opinions on them and what they are are no better than mine depending on the reasons behind them.

[mark_30_112]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/5314632
An article written by Kobe. Any true fan of the NBA should read this and appreciate his desire and dedication to the game.

Yeah, he tries his best at scoring heaps it would go astray if he passed the ball a bit more often.

A better way to define Kobe "unstoppable"

[Matthew]

first, stop trying to attack me personally and try attacking the argument for a change. second, how did i know you stopped posting? i just felt like arguing, its not like i stalk you and wait for you to not be around to post. come on. obviously all your trying to do is break me down to raise the strength of your argument.

Lol what? I'm not attacking you personally, im just telling you how i see things. You were fine with "not going further with the discussion" until i stopped responding to it, then you decided to suddenly have this debate? That looks like attention whoring to me.

I never said he wasn't a hard worker, i asked you what your evidence was. So, your telling me that your evidence that kobe is a hard worker is that his teammates and coach say he is? Do you honestly think they would say anything else about the man who could oust shaq. You know what? My Mother says I'm a hard worker. everyone bow down and respect me.

Kobe never ousted shaq. See this is what I can't stand about casual hoop fans, they assume so much. Kobe said he never wanted Shaq to leave. Dr Jerry Buss said it was his (own) decision to trade shaq. Lets look at why Shaq demanded that trade exactly:
Kobe had had that brilliant 30,6,6 season in 2003, but he had a player option in his contract to opt out at the ned of the 04 season. He said thats what he intended on doing, which caused laker nation to shit themselves. Theres no way they could have let anyone this good at his age just walk. Shaq probably saw all the attention that recieved, and how no one was really interested in upgrading his already massive contract (30 mil a season). That probably drove shaq to say to Jerry Buss "pay me motherfucker" at that pre season game, which is what made Jerry Buss want him gone.

Thats how I interpreted the whole thing, as neither a kobe/shaq/lakers fan. It wasnt Kobe saying "i want shaq gone" lol, no player has ever had that kind of say in the nba. Its amazing though, how with everything, it comes back to being kobe the trouble maker. Even with the whole post shaq la era, it was kobes fault. Lets not forget how kobe apologised to shaq before their initial meeting in LA, how he was the one who went upto shaq before that game. But then this season, when shaq goes upto him, its all pats on the back for shaq for being "the better man". Are people that blinded with hate not to realise that Kobe was trying to end this before it even started?

Look, I know that kobe is a hard worker and that he has a desire to win and I never said otherwise....but what i'm saying is that at one point Mike Tyson was also a hard worker and also had incredible desire to win. should i respect him for those qualities alone? There are many people in this world not named kobe who are just as hard workers and have just as much desire, and more often than not, I will always respect what ability that translates to, but it doesnt mean I need to respect the person.

I'm not saying you have to respect kobe the person. I'm saying you shouldnt let other peoples opinions and views influence too much on how you veiw someone. Mike Tyson, I have all the respect for him as a boxer, I still think a young tyson could beat Ali (i made a post about this not too long ago if you wish to search it, just for proof). But that doesnt mean I respect him. And believe it or not, I dont really like Kobe off the court. But I, as a basketball fan, love what he does on the court.

So, all people who respect basketball, are people who respect people who work hard at being great at it. So I should respect a little kid practicing on the street? Should I respect a 40 year old nobody playing pickup games?

If you respect the game you would respect them for playing. Not as a person or whatever, but for playing, you should respect them, if you are a true fan.

[magius]

Lol what? I'm not attacking you personally, im just telling you how i see things. You were fine with "not going further with the discussion" until i stopped responding to it, then you decided to suddenly have this debate? That looks like attention whoring to me.

how was i to know that you stopped responding to it? if there was a blinky light that told me whenever you were on, okay, i'd wait for you to be on, but there isn't. I mean this isn't a chat room or anything. why did i decide to have the debate? what can i say, im moody, sorry.

as for the whole kobe ousting shaq thing even though its straying for the argument i'll indulge you.... you honestly don't think kobe had a slighest hand in it? kobe said he never wanted shaq to leave in hindsight, he never said he didnt want shaq to leave when it mattered. That says a lot. as for all this kobe shaq fued stuff, who started it, who tried to end it, etc., etc., its all heresay, i'm not going into it. If you don't think that when kobe opted out of his contract and told everyone he was considering becoming a clipper of all things he wasn't in so many words telling buss "choose", then I don't know what to say.

I'm not saying you have to respect kobe the person. I'm saying you shouldnt let other peoples opinions and views influence too much on how you veiw someone.

you are telling me that you are impartial to other peoples opinions and views? You know that one - that is basically impossible, and two - leads to an entirely ignorant opinion. I take in as many opinions and views as I can before i make a judgement.

Mike Tyson, I have all the respect for him as a boxer, I still think a young tyson could beat Ali (i made a post about this not too long ago if you wish to search it, just for proof). But that doesnt mean I respect him. And believe it or not, I dont really like Kobe off the court. But I, as a basketball fan, love what he does on the court.

you're preaching to the choir: "There are many people in this world not named kobe who are just as hard workers and have just as much desire, and more often than not, I will always respect what ability that translates to, but it doesnt mean I need to respect the person. "

So, all people who respect basketball, are people who respect people who work hard at being great at it. So I should respect a little kid practicing on the street? Should I respect a 40 year old nobody playing pickup games?

If you respect the game you would respect them for playing. Not as a person or whatever, but for playing, you should respect them, if you are a true fan.

again you're hopefully misintentionally misquote me, this was my entire post: "Should I respect a 40 year old nobody playing pickup games? Hell, by that logic, we should respect the majority of every single player in the nba, because if they didnt work hard, they wouldnt be there in the first place. Who is to say that ron artest isnt 'trying to carry the torch of greatness'? I respect the fact that they work hard, I don't respect them for working hard. get it."

now for all your replies, you never seem to understand, that i'm not attacking kobe the person or kobe the player (the only stands you seem to be defending), im attacking the article.

[Matthew]

how was i to know that you stopped responding to it?

Its easy to assume that, becuase you had another meaningless post that I didnt reply to before your mood swing.

as for the whole kobe ousting shaq thing even though its straying for the argument i'll indulge you.... you honestly don't think kobe had a slighest hand in it? kobe said he never wanted shaq to leave in hindsight, he never said he didnt want shaq to leave when it mattered. That says a lot. as for all this kobe shaq fued stuff, who started it, who tried to end it, etc., etc., its all heresay, i'm not going into it. If you don't think that when kobe opted out of his contract and told everyone he was considering becoming a clipper of all things he wasn't in so many words telling buss "choose", then I don't know what to say.

Thats right, I'm saying he had no say in Shaq staying or leaving. Its not simply becuase of what Buss or Kobe says (althought that does mean a bit), but look at shaqs past in orlando. As soon as it was evident Orlando was more interested in Penny than Shaq, he sulked his way to L.A.

you are telling me that you are impartial to other peoples opinions and views? You know that one - that is basically impossible, and two - leads to an entirely ignorant opinion. I take in as many opinions and views as I can before i make a judgement.

Re read what I said. You can listen to and acknowledge other peoples opinions, but still make your own believes and opinions through facts, not opinions.

now for all your replies, you never seem to understand, that i'm not attacking kobe the person or kobe the player (the only stands you seem to be defending), im attacking the article.

But you've made not about the article becuase of kobe. You want it go back to how you try to make the article look contrived? Wow, thats entertaining.

[magius]

Its easy to assume that, becuase you had another meaningless post that I didnt reply to before your mood swing.

well they were one hour apart, its not like i waited a week to see if you were still alive. its easy to assume a lot of things. i forgive you.

Thats right, I'm saying he had no say in Shaq staying or leaving. Its not simply becuase of what Buss or Kobe says (althought that does mean a bit), but look at shaqs past in orlando. As soon as it was evident Orlando was more interested in Penny than Shaq, he sulked his way to L.A.

then i disagree, i think that while not 100% of the reason for shaqs disposal can be placed on kobe, a signifcant portion can. if its nots what buss or kobe say (or doesn't) what is it?

Re read what I said. You can listen to and acknowledge other peoples opinions, but still make your own believes and opinions through facts, not opinions.

okay i agree.

But you've made not about the article becuase of kobe. You want it go back to how you try to make the article look contrived? Wow, thats entertaining.

i dont understand. are you saying i didnt say anything about the article? I did in the prior response, but you chose to only reply to certain quotes, I had nothing to talk about because I'd said everything I had to say and didnt want to repeat it unless you had a counter-argument.

[Matthew]

i forgive you

I never apologised, so I don't know or care why you're "forgiving" me..

if its nots what buss or kobe say (or doesn't) what is it?

Re read what you quoted of my post.

i dont understand. are you saying i didnt say anything about the article? I did in the prior response, but you chose to only reply to certain quotes, I had nothing to talk about because I'd said everything I had to say and didnt want to repeat it unless you had a counter-argument.

Becuase we've already gone over and over it. Why do you keep bringing it back up, to draw attention to yourself?

[magius]

I never apologised, so I don't know or care why you're "forgiving" me..

touchy....

Re read what you quoted of my post.

you think just because shaq left orlando (under different circumstances) that that means its all on his shoulders? that its no fault of kobes that shaq left? you dont think kobe forced anyones hand? wow. i really don't know what to say here, other than to agree to disagree.

Becuase we've already gone over and over it. Why do you keep bringing it back up, to draw attention to yourself?

no, because i didn't want this to turn into a thread attacking kobe as a person or player. i wanted to stay on topic. if thats all you had to say, fine. i don't even know what we're arguing about anymore then.

[Andrew]

I hesitate to interject but I will anyway. As far as Kobe ousting Shaq, it's not fair to say that he did so outright. But from what we outside the closed doors know, it's safe to assume he did so in a more subtle way. Obviously the flirtation with the Clippers assured Kobe would get the money he wanted/deserved and sent the message to Lakers brass that he would consider other options. Whether he would really go the Clippers is something we'll never know but it did let the Lakers front office know that Kobe and his agent weren't going to be taken advantage of.

Phil Jackson described a meeting in his book in which he, Kupchak and Kobe sat down and discussed the future of the team. Jackson apparently asked Kobe if his (Jackson's) presence would affect his decision to stay, to which Kobe seemed fairly indifferent at least by Jackson's description. He then asked Kobe whether Shaq's presence would affect his decision to stay and Kobe's answer was yes.

Now, obviously we have to draw our own conclusions from that and since none of us were there we shouldn't necessarily take it as gospel. But while one could suggest Kobe's answer was in support of Shaq, it would seem to me that his short answer was really saying more at the time. Essentially he was saying "If he's still here, I'm not so keen to be here." Might he have re-signed had Shaq not been traded? Perhaps, maybe even quite likely. But his reaction probably made the Lakers' decision easier.

That said, Shaq had already said some things and done some things to cause a rift and the trade was something he welcomed so to say Kobe ran him out of town is an exaggeration. But I have to agree that in a subtle way, from what we know it sounds like he was involved in the decision even if he forced the Lakers hand a bit.

[air gordon]

Jordan was talked about first and foremost most because he won 6 titles, because he was sports most recognizable/marketable player in an era where mass media coverage just started. The Bulls/Jordan were on national TV the most, on NBA on NBC, etc because they were the best team/has the best player

Bryant on the other hand is talked about the most more or less because of his notoriety- the rape trial, the fallout between himself, Jackson, and Shaq, and now the return of Jackson to the Lakers. Yes he has won 3 titles but seldom that's not why his name is being discussed. It's a sad fact but media/society/marketing is drawn towards negativity even if it's overblown or created artificially. The NBA should devote a bulk of it's coverage to the best teams, not the best players on mediocre/average teams

Instead of the best teams facing each other (detroit vs SA) on Christmas as being the headliner it's instead- Will Shaq foul Bryant hard/can Bryant dunk on Shaq? Media coverage/negativity is so overblown today

...

I think Bryant's immensely talented and has an admirable work ethic. I respect him for that. And that's that. I don't think we should "love" any player because of whatever reason. I never like Isiah Thomas during the Bad Boys days but I sure respected him

As far as motivation- of course we have to hold him up to that standard as well (or not but I think you do if you want to call him the best player of this generation/or amongst the best of all time). Being a motivator is a key aspect in being a great leader. All the great ones had this trait- Magic, Bird, Russell, Jordan, Isiah,etc...

But whatever.. just my 1.5 cents. Carry on