Heat want O'Neal to make an extended stay.

if Shaq gets his 30 million and is useless in 2 yrs, he'll be untradeable......i wonder what Wade will do when his contract is up?

He should show some class like Garnett did and accept less money,because he's like waaay overpriced at the moment with the injuries and all.

Word.

if shaq's getting old with nagging injuries and all.......yao ming can have sweet revenge.....i can't wait for that day to become a reality

This being said,it's not like he really needs the money (unlike a certain 'HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO FEED MY FAMILY WITH 12 MILLION ??"); hell, I've even read that with everything he's bought so far,he hasn't even touched any of his NBA money.

yao ming can have sweet revenge

You keep dreaming of that and we'll just watch how Amare dominates Yao.

actually yao gives amare trouble for whatever reason

Big men can lost longer because their height and strength doesn't go away with age, but it's still dependent on their conditioning. Big men have broken down with age because they had poor or no conditioning (cough shawn kemp) and relied purely on a young man's metabolism and had no regimen.

While Shaq is not Kemp by any stretch, it does seem like he relied on his young metabolism to keep fit to some degree. He's been getting more out of shape every year, and this bruise issue is very indicative of poor conditioning. It's the out of shape guys that get hurt unless it's joint/bone related. A bruise to the thigh shouldn't keep an elite level athlete out of commision...heck Ginobli suffered the exact same injury in game 3...he's running around like a crazed ferret.

And i know it's blasphemy, but if Miami had kept Odom & Caron and traded just Grant for someone decent, would they have done that much worse? It's not like Miami is in the Finals, they're not even Eastern Conf champions. And how much of Miami's success was due to Shaq's 22 and 10 versus Wade's rise to the next level?

Don't get me wrong, 22 and 10 is nothing to scoff at, but when 22 & 10 are eating up the equivalent salaries of 3 all-stars, you have to wonder if it was such a bad trade for LA after all. LA has flexibility now and is making a lot of moves in the off-season...Miami isn't. In fact, Miami might get worse if they can't afford to re-sign Damon Jones because Shaq's contract.

Last edited by maes on Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

I don't get one thing: Shaq looked fine at the start of the season, but by the end he was - once again - fat. How can you get out of shape after all those games, shootarounds and practices?

Maes, I don't think you credit Shaq enough. Then again, I'm the one that tends to over-credit him.

But seriously, one could argue that it's due to Shaq's presence that Wade made as big as a leap as he made. Now don't get me wrong, Wade would've improved wether Shaq was or was not there but given Wade is a slasher/driver, his game was helped immensely due to Shaq. There are still a lot of teams that double team Shaq, this still does open up the lane for Wade. Due to Wade's driving skill & Shaq's double teaming presence, guys like Jones could actually get that wide open three. The defense was either on Wade or on Shaq.

I'm pretty sure that Miami wouldn't have gotten to the Eastern Conference Finals had it not been for acquiring Shaq. With Odom, Butler & Grant they were a rebuilding team, a team that made the first, second round nothing more. These guys got to the ECF, hell, they almost won had it not been for Wade's injury. If Odom and Butler were still on Miami, what would set them apart from New Jersey? No inside presence and a great back-court. Look who makes noise in the East. Detroit & Indiana. Why? Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace & Jermaine O'Neal. New Jersey did so when they had Martin. As much as people don't want to acknowledge it, the inside presence does make a difference. (Note, I'm not saying these guys carried their teams, it was a team effort but come on, notice all of them have legitimate big men?)

The Lakers are still way over the cap, the only real flexibility is that a huge bulk of that payroll is now occupied by three contracts rather than one. And one of those contracts (namely Grant) isn't exactly easy to move. I've got to admit the trade has opened up some options for rebuilding in Los Angeles, but it's still taken one team to the brink of the NBA Finals while sending the other one almost to the bottom of the league in rebuilding mode. At best, they're around the bottom of the "middle of the pack" teams which is still a long drop from an NBA Finals appearance, especially when you still have a team that's half-decent at the very least.

If Kobe is a little worse than Wade, or a little better depending on opinion, then why did the Lakers tank with Butler and Odom? Case closed. Done. Unless you think Wade is MJ or something, which...he is not..
Shaq is still in the top 10 players in the league. Did everyone just forget he should've won or was in contention for the MVP?

Gimme a break...why did the Bulls tank in the playoffs when Jordan came back from retirement? Jordan must be crap by that line of reasoning.

You don't insert people into a lineup and get maximum efficiency like some video game, teams take a long time to gel together.

Look at how long Ray Allen, Rashard, AD, and McMillan have been in Seattle. They've been crap for many years, i should know. By the popular opinion here, that team would have been dissassembled because they didn't produce after just 1 year. Now they hold one of the best records in the League and will be under cap with all their major players including Ray. But i guess they should have just kept Payton

I'm no fan of Kobe (you can look back through my older posts), but judging the worth of that trade in just the season it happened is short sighted and inaccurate. I remember all the crying about trading for Antonio Davis, now that was brilliant. All the crying for trading Brand for Curry & Chandler, now it was brilliant. Trading a big man like Polynice for this 8 ppg kid named Scottie Pippen. And of course, the biggest blunder of all, trading Oakley for some unknown named Horace Grant.

I don't think the Lakers management gets enough credit, these aren't morons manning this show. This is the management that waved a Vlade Divacs to the NBA and got Kobe Bryant for him. His rookie year, Kobe was looking like a bust, especially considering how well Eddie Jones was playing.

Results of that trade:
Kobe: 7.6 ppg 1.8 rpg 41% FG
Vlade: 13 ppg 9 rpg 51% FG

There was PLENTY of Lakers moaning back in those days too.

Depending on how badly Shaq locks up Riley with his contract, we'll see who came out better from this deal in 4 years...which is how long it took Kobe to score more than 20 ppg.

Eh? Tanking = not making playoffs. Plus, Jordan only played a few games...and right after that "tanking season" his team won a championship!

Oh yea, and the Lakers are a different case because of their prestige. 1 losing season to them is much more painful than a lot of losing seasons by any other team. Kobe is part of the 5 LA Lakers teams not to make the playoffs. 5!! The Heat will always be a contender with Dwayne Wade and Shaq until Shaq retires. The Lakers? We don't really know. Can Kobe really learn how to play team basketball? Or will he be like Wilt Chamberlain? Having amazing stats but failing to deliver many championships? O Neal is still averaging 20 10 and I doubt he'll ever go below 15 8 or something like that. The fact remains, the league is still scared of him. And THAT is priceless. Having people double-triple teaming, beating the shit out of him, and trying to mess him up, but not the team. This makes teams focus only on O'Neal and that won't change for a long time. And when it does change...won't that just improve or maintain O'Neal's numbers? Remember, O'Neal is still playing 2~5 on 1 basketball, not 1 on 1 basketball.

Maes, this management didn't bring Kobe to LA. Jerry West did. Jerry West isn't in LA anymore.

About the four years from now we'll see who's better off, I think that's bull. I'd rather have my team be serious contenders for NOW than worry about the future. LA moved Shaq to have mediocre seasons (they won't be going to the Finals anytime soon) wheras Miami was almost in it, with a very thin lineup. It was basically Shaq & Wade. Who'd heard of Haslem? Who'd heard of Butler? These are mediocre guys with Shaq & Wade.

As I said, I'd rather have championship contention than a mediocre season.

actually krause traded oakley for cartwright

ho grant was drafted originally by the bulls, the same year as pippen

as far as that miami team last year (in response to jackal's post)... like you said, they were in a rebuilding year yet they made the 2nd round, almost the ECF. that's pretty damn impressive. they had all that momentum heading into the offseason...

give that team some time to gel together and they would join detroit and indiana as perennial eastern conference powerhouses, most definitley better then the net's carter, kidd, & spare parts.

About the four years from now we'll see who's better off, I think that's bull. I'd rather have my team be serious contenders for NOW than worry about the future. LA moved Shaq to have mediocre seasons (they won't be going to the Finals anytime soon) wheras Miami was almost in it, with a very thin lineup. It was basically Shaq & Wade. Who'd heard of Haslem? Who'd heard of Butler? These are mediocre guys with Shaq & Wade.

Agreed. The Lakers' future is just potential at this point in time. This could very well prove to be a wise move down the road, avoiding a long and painful rebuilding process that might have begun with Shaq's retirement or at least his decline, especially if Kobe decided not to re-sign if Shaq remained a Laker as seems to be the case.

But as far as what's actually happened to this point in time, the Heat have the better part of the deal. They traded away three of their starters for one player, had a better season than the one before and could well be a powerhouse for the next few years, possibly even champions. In contrast, the Lakers won 22 fewer games, missed the playoffs and probably won't get back to the level they were at for some time. Down the road, they might be able to work some magic that you could say was made possible by trading Shaq, but that's all what-ifs for the moment.

give that team some time to gel together and they would join detroit and indiana as perennial eastern conference powerhouses, most definitley better then the net's carter, kidd, & spare parts.

Without a big man they wouldn't have gotten passed Detroit or Indiana. Atleast I don't think they would have been capable to do so.

they came very close to doing that to indiana, who were at full strength at the time IIRC. another year under their belts and miami could very well done it...

but we'll never know now