Nash is no MVP

im not comparing the nets and suns from one another, im simply stating the impact that these two players had (or have) on their respective franchises. i agree with you definitely, phoenix and nash aren't the detroit pistons and bruce bowen's of the nba but just because he's not a good defensive player does not mean he doesn't deserve the award. if we're talking about weaknesses here then i guess you can also say:

- shaq did not deserve to win the mvp a couple years ago because he can't nail a free throw if his life depended on it
- iverson should not have gotten mvp because he was a turnover prone machine

Those aren't really good examples, the defensive side of basketball is half of the game, Shaq's free throws or Iverson's turnovers don't make up half of each game, so they're definately not near the same effect as being a weak defender.

efficiency points are nice, but do garnett, duncan, shaq, lebron and nowitzki own the best record in the league? when everything is said and done the only thing that matters is a W, and that's what nash has provided them ever since he joined the team. btw the suns lost 5 in a row without nash in the lineup, i think that speaks volumes when it comes to how important he is to the team.

Common, a team of Joe Johnson - Q-Rich - Marion - Amare + whoever is a beast lineup. The Suns are a stacked team, and they haven't faced any major injuries. Also Duncan is 36-10.

The Suns lost three in a row without Nash, not 5. They lost to the Jazz with Nash in the lineup, and Nash was there in the Pacers game, but they were losing while he was there, and actually made a run after he got injured to end the half, but then collpased in the 2nd half.

no argument there, but he also makes it a hell lot easier for them on the offensive end eh? no one on the starting line up is averaging less than 15 ppg.. i didn't see this kind of production when stephon marbury was around (not knocking on marbury)

That's cause Marbury is terrible , seriously though, when Marbury was there they didn't have the same lineup. They had Penny, so Joe Johnson wasn't getting the minutes, Marion was averaging 20-21 points, and Amare was a rookie, but his second year was averaging 15 with Stephon.

amare stoudemire 03-04 season: 20.6 ppg, 48% shooting
amare stoudemire 04-05 season: 26.1 ppg, 57% shooting

Just a little note, Amare averaged 23.3 points on 48.3% shooting, and went to the line 9.2 times a game, after Marbury left, so the increase in PPG isn't as drastic as it might seem.

Also it was a big hype in the summer [well with the Phoenix people] when the Suns people were talking about how much he improved his jumpshot, and he also improved and added to his inside game. Basically this season he was going to average at least 25 points on something like 50-52% shooting anyways considering the improvements made. Nash has helped his as he should because a good PG will help big men get in the right spots to get easier baskets.

shawn marion 03-04 season: 19 ppg, 44% shooting, 34% 3pt fg
shawn marion 04-05 season: 19.5 ppg, 47% shooting, 35% 3pt

not a significant increase, but the numbers still have gone up. he's also putting up career numbers in rebounding

Career high FG%: 48%, 3PT%: 39.3%, also had a 38.7% year. Rebounding is up because he's playing full time PF, which he's never done before, and also because the pace is faster. His rebound rate was much higher in 00-01. Even then, how can Nash make him a better rebounder

joe johnson 03-04 season: 16 ppg, 43% fg, 30% 3pt fg
joe johnson 04-05 season: 15.9 ppg, 44% fg, 46% 3pt fg

percentages have gone up, especially from 3 point range. nash's dribble penetration has been the key

Let's use everyone's favourite line, when Nash was out Joe Johnson shot 46.2% from three point range, and 43.4% from the field. If not for the Detroit game he shot about 50% without Nash.

Joe Johnson actually worked on his shot a lot in the summer, his stroke is much improved, and he's become a more consitent shooter, but the Nash penetration does help.

q rich: 03-04 season: 17 ppg, 39% fg, 35.2% 3 pt fg
q rich: 04-05 season: 16 ppg, 38% fg, 35.4% 3pt fg

his stats have dropped a little bit but he leads the league in 3 pt field goals made. heck, he made more than he did last season and we're just at the halfway mark of the season.. again, nash's dribble penetration

So Q-Rich shooting worse, but attempting more three's is a good thing? If he had been attempting this many three's last season he would've made as many too at this point in the season, I don't see the argument here.

i beg to differ, nash excels in more than one department -- scoring, passing, free throws, 3 pt shooting, LEADERSHIP <- something the suns definitely lacked when the marbury trade went down. like i said im not gonna argue with you that nash has his flaws on defense but every player and every MVP of the yesteryear has had their flaws as well.

and yes, his style of play kicks ass

I don't think FT shooting is considered an area of excelling, it would just be shooting, but yea, he's not a one dimensional player like he was implying. He can run an offense extremely well, shoot, pass, score, and is a good leader.

Again about players having flaws, the thing is that having a defensive flaw is huge because that's half of the game.

last time i checked garnett, duncan, james are not superheroes, so just like nash they are also going to be liability in the playoffs. i've seen nash played in the playoffs, remember he helped dallas to the western conference finals a couple years ago so i can't see why he can't do the same this year around with a younger and more athletic team. if you're expecting nash to set it on cruise control for the playoffs then sorry buddy you got another thing coming

The only thing I can think of is that Nash has been known to have late season/playoff breakdowns, where he get's tired in games, and also his preformance drops a little. Duncan picks it up in the playoffs, and this year because of how good the Spurs have started games, he's been playing less minutes. Lebron I think will be tired, but he's a freak, so who knows, and KG always picks it up too.

Anyways, Nash is a candidate, I think he'll win it on the hype, most people don't look deep into things, they just see, Suns added Nash + Suns better than last season = Nash MVP. They don't balance the equation with + Richardson + Improved Amare + Improved JJ + They had no PG last season.

I think what a lot of people are trying to say is that an MVP should be able to win you a game on both ends, Nash is an offensive weapon, but won't ever win you a game on the defensive end.

Last edited by fgrep15 on Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

where are there two duncans in the poll?

where are there two duncans in the poll?

Anyways, back on topic. I would have to agree with a lot of people that Nash should not be the MVP this season, not to take anything away from him, he is an amazing player and has been dishing out the assists like no one else. But as somone mentioned ealrier, Nash is a great offensive player but is not a good defender, and thats where he loses my vote.

If you look at last years MVP, Kevin Garnett, he did everything possible for his team to win. On offense he was unstopabble and to add to that he played solid defense, and that makes him more valuable than a player like Nash who is a liability on defense.

As I said earlier, Nash my certainly be the Phoenix Suns MVP and top 5 in the league, but I just feel that an MVP should to everything possible for his team to win, and Nash only does that on one side of the ball.

I know there will be people who agree and disagree, but I just had to state my opinion

There is a lot of emphasis on player defense, and that does factor into MVP considerations, but Phoenix is not a defensive team. Their entire strategy is based on outscoring the other team, and this is where Nash comes in as the MVP for Phoenix, where the most valuable player to a team is helping everybody score to rack up wins.

To give them something, their defense isn't all that bad, their opponents shoot 44.4% which is middle of the pack in the NBA, and 32.5% from three point range which is second best in the NBA. Their opponents also go to the line only 20.7 times a game which is first in the NBA [in terms of being low]

The opponent rebound per game stat is where the defensive problem lies, they're last in opponents offensive rebounds at 15.4 rebounds a game. The PPG stat isn't really big considering their opponents take 89.9 shots a game, 4 more shots than the next team closest to that, so that's not biggie.

If Amare could improve his rebounding, they could even cut their opponent PPG down because their would be less second chance oppurtunities.

i voted for garnett

why are there two duncans in the poll, or am I seeing somehting wrong

There is a lot of emphasis on player defense, and that does factor into MVP considerations, but Phoenix is not a defensive team. Their entire strategy is based on outscoring the other team, and this is where Nash comes in as the MVP for Phoenix, where the most valuable player to a team is helping everybody score to rack up wins.

Couldn't agree more.

Amares rise in fg% isn't due to just experience since he is still raw on offence. But nash is getting the ball into him at the right times.

Kg has put some nice stats as always, but he is also on a mediocre team. He isn't making his teammates better, they have a healthy and productive wally this year. Yet they are losing, with the seemingly rapidly grampa backcourt. that was dominating last year.

Timmy is solid, but this year the spurs are loaded with talent much in the same way the suns are. But the spurs have depth and play a more 90's oriented game of basketball revolving around solid defence and halfcourt play.


Nash is an mvp because despite everyone saying q also came to the team. He has been playing terribly yet the suns still manage to win with nash in the lineup. Nash the main guy that makes the suns offence tick.

The award is most valuble player afterall, not the player with the best stats, or best all around player. Its about who is the best leader of a team.

And at the moment its without doubt nash in my opinion.

Shaq hasn't played real defence since his rookie year, most dominant player ever who has never won a rebounding title? meh. Thats a different story.

Nash is an mvp because despite everyone saying q also came to the team. He has been playing terribly yet the suns still manage to win with nash in the lineup. Nash the main guy that makes the suns offence tick

Oh, that's not considered terrible for Q-Rich, that's how he always plays

well, if Nash isn't considered a serious MVP then take off Nowitzki as well....and Peja last season

throw out the no defense no mvp argument

the no defense playing charles barkley won mvp in 93
i don't remember magic ever making the all defensive team either

throw out the no defense no mvp argument

the no defense playing charles barkley won mvp in 93
i don't remember magic ever making the all defensive team either

I guess you have a point, since the Suns are winning, Nash not playing defense does not really factor into him winning MVP. But I just think that him not playing any defense could end up being a weakness for the Suns when it counts.

For example, if they play a team like the Spurs who do play solid defense and have a PG that can score, that may be a huge factor come playoff time.

Also, the Pistons can also keep the Suns under a hundred points, and they have a PG in Chauncey Billups that can put up points.

So Nash may win MVP by seasons end, But come playoff time, and I'm not saying the Suns have no chance, I think Nash may be exposed on the defensive side of the ball.

throw out the no defense no mvp argument

the no defense playing charles barkley won mvp in 93
i don't remember magic ever making the all defensive team either

I don't remember Magic or Barkley ever being liabilities. That's what Steve Nash is. All teams with strong offensive point guards try to exploit it, and it's obvious when you watch the Suns.

Really, voting Steve Nash for MVP is like voting a for a DH in baseball.

There is a lot of emphasis on player defense, and that does factor into MVP considerations, but Phoenix is not a defensive team. Their entire strategy is based on outscoring the other team, and this is where Nash comes in as the MVP for Phoenix, where the most valuable player to a team is helping everybody score to rack up wins.

Regardless, basketball is still 50% defense. Why do you think the Spurs are always able to beat the Suns? Because they're great on both sides of the ball. They don't adjust to the Suns -- they make the Suns adjust to the them. Thank you for pointing out that Nash is Phoenix's MVP, but not of the league.

Starting a team with Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett > Starting a team with Steve Nash

Starting a team with Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett > Starting a team with Steve Nash[/color]

I agree with that, but KG haven't been able to get his teams the W's, which is what counts in the end.

I'd give the MVP to Duncan. He's putting up good numbers and the Spurs are among the league's elite. Nash has been able to fit well into a system that generates wins, and he's the floor general that the Suns need in order for that system to work.

I guess you have a point, since the Suns are winning, Nash not playing defense does not really factor into him winning MVP. But I just think that him not playing any defense could end up being a weakness for the Suns when it counts.

For example, if they play a team like the Spurs who do play solid defense and have a PG that can score, that may be a huge factor come playoff time.

You're right about that, but MVP only goes out to the regular season performers without playoff consideration.

I don't remember Magic or Barkley ever being liabilities. That's what Steve Nash is. All teams with strong offensive point guards try to exploit it, and it's obvious when you watch the Suns.

Really, voting Steve Nash for MVP is like voting a for a DH in baseball.

that's because the lakers and suns for the most part put magic and barkley on the weaker offensive player of the opposition whenever possible. pippen and jordan killed magic when they had the opportunity of magic guarding them in the finals. or how about that big pick-n-roll play where stockton drained the game winner in barkley's face?

Regardless, basketball is still 50% defense. Why do you think the Spurs are always able to beat the Suns? Because they're great on both sides of the ball. They don't adjust to the Suns -- they make the Suns adjust to the them. Thank you for pointing out that Nash is Phoenix's MVP, but not of the league.

team defense shouldn't be a factor in deciding the mvp vote. TD's defense is solid and a vital cog in the spurs defensive scheme but he's not the only reason why the spur's defense is as great as it is.

Starting a team with Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett > Starting a team with Steve Nash

i'm not sure if this is a relevant point. deciding who to build your team around and deciding who's MVP are 2 entirely different things.

Shaq hasn't played real defence since his rookie year, most dominant player ever who has never won a rebounding title? meh. Thats a different story.

Thats ridiculous. Just read what players and coaches all over the league say day in day out when they play with or against Shaq.
So what he didn't win a rebounding title. His intangibles and impact can't be measured by statistics. period

moving on,
I feel people use valuable on nash without thinking about the factor dependency. In this case
I don't see their dependency on Nash as a good thing. They overpay him (yes overpay, ask the Suns over a couple of years and ask if he was really worth all that money). They've sacrificed talent to win now (jim jackson acquired at the cost of talent). They have to rely on Nash playing 40 minutes (which is ultimately going to effect his durability in the coming years as well). They have to rely on their starters because of the situation Nash has put them in. For what? Some regular season wins? The way they play because of Nash isn't going to work much in their favor in the playoffs. What has history told us? Nash burns out. Nash injures often. Offense doesn't win playoffs series. Live by the three, die by the three. His play is in some degree actually hurting the clubs playoff chances. Is that the kind of value you really want to crown MVP?

I know we're all really tired of hearing the Garnetts, Shaqs and TD's as MVP but they are simply better MVP's.

Last edited by Ripper on Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

I know we're all really tired of hearing the Garnetts, Shaqs and TD's as MVP but they are simply better MVP's.

not KG this year.

They are on a winning streak yes, and they will make the playoffs, but he is not an MVP candidate this year.

how can you count out a player this early who averages two more rebounds then Ben Wallace(!) and ranks in the top 10 in assist between the league's top point guards. The wolves can still turn it around and Garnett will do all he can to get that. And the guy who said they were 'mediocre', that's insane. They are underachieving, yes, but talentwise they have the deepest team and arguably the best player of the league in their squad. Don't count them out halfway through the season.

At the end of the season he might have a chance, but if teh MVP's werre to happen now there's no way he would get it because of the undracheiving of the team. BTW, they are playing mediocrily (lol) though their talent is not mediocre.

You're right about that, but MVP only goes out to the regular season performers without playoff consideration.

I know about that, which is why I said that he may win MVP by seasons end, but I just think that when the playoffs come, solid teams with solid PG and a solid defense may just be hurtful for ths Suns.

I know I'm making it seem like I hate Steve Nash, but that by no means is true. I would love for him to win MVP and for him to lead the Suns to an NBA Championship. But I was just saying what many others said, his lack of defense may or may not hurt them in the long run, but by now we all know that defense wins championships.

I have always been a firm believer of playing hard on defense and getting easy buckets on offense, which is why I have been a Nets fan for so long. But Nash only helps his team get those easy buckets.

that's because the lakers and suns for the most part put magic and barkley on the weaker offensive player of the opposition whenever possible. pippen and jordan killed magic when they had the opportunity of magic guarding them in the finals. or how about that big pick-n-roll play where stockton drained the game winner in barkley's face?

Pick-n-roll huh? Could it have possibly been Utah's best offensive player, Karl Malone? Regardless, I stand by my point that Nash, who isn't exactly guarding Paul Pierce or Tracy McGrady, is a liability, and the two examples you brought up were not.

team defense shouldn't be a factor in deciding the mvp vote. TD's defense is solid and a vital cog in the spurs defensive scheme but he's not the only reason why the spur's defense is as great as it is.

Exactly, team defense shouldn't be a factor, so the point that Phoenix isn't a defensive-playing team is irrelevant. Nash still stinks at half of what basketball is all about.

i'm not sure if this is a relevant point. deciding who to build your team around and deciding who's MVP are 2 entirely different things.

The point I was trying to make was that Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett are still more valuable players to any team than Steve Nash is. Just because the Suns have become overly-dependent on Nash's presence, doesn't mean that he's been the better player this year.

team defense shouldn't be a factor in deciding the mvp vote. TD's defense is solid and a vital cog in the spurs defensive scheme but he's not the only reason why the spur's defense is as great as it is.

sums up my thoughts exactly

whys theirs 2 Duncan's .....anyway Ill stick to TD for MVP ...but if he doesnt get the crown then its gotta go to King James.....for a sophomore to be do what hes doing is something special....n u gotta show some love for Ray Allen.

if Dre could get 11 APG having such horrible go to guy guys then its nothing special for Nash to do what hes doin with so many good options.

Once again, it's not about who is the "better" player. It is about who is more valuable. We're no talking about "any" team. We're talking about what is happening in the NBA right now. If you took Nash off the Suns and Duncan of the Spurs, the Spurs would probably be the better team. We're not comparing apples to oranges. The Suns and Spurs are both elite teams. It really boils down to right now, with everything taken into account, who is more valuable to their team. I think the fact the Suns completely collapsed without Nash show that he is probably the MVP.

They crumbled without him. To me, that shows that they're overly-dependent on him. It's not about who's more valuable to their team -- which is debatable since we haven't even seen the Spurs without Duncan since he's not injury-prone like Nash. Yes, they're both elite teams and one's gameplan is arguably more dependent on their franchise player than the other.

Still, Duncan brings more to the table and he actually makes himself a presence on BOTH ends of the floor. The MVP of the league shouldn't be the player who is most valuable to his team.

The Cavs won without Lebron, but then again they were playing the Bucks, what would people say if when Nash was out the Suns played the Bucks, Hornets and Hawks as opposed to the Pistons, Wizards and Grizzlies.

It kinda reminds me of Jeff McInnis last season, Lebron hadn't got the whole being a major playmaker thing down, and the team had no playmaker and sucked. When Jeff McInnis came, they almost made the playoffs, and were over .500 with him.

Why are we all talking about this so early in the season? Who's to say Nash won't slip on his hair gel tomorrow and break his back, chances are he's not going to win the MVP award if he doesn't play another game this season. Or Phoenix could have some form of collapse, it's a good debate but it's too early to declare someone the MVP at this point.