Michael Jordan

[Wall St. Peon]

I think that Jordan,aged 30, versus McGrady or Kobe now, on 1 on 1, would have been great to see......He would have kicked their ass, for both of them...
W/o any problems...

I doubt that. It'd be good, and I'm not sure who would win, but I highly doubt it would be 'w/o any problems.' Why are you shortchanging two wonderful players?

I think that's one of the reason he would be named the greatest basketball ever. It's that he can always show more than his talent. He would make something happen on the basketball court when most people think he couldn't.

Yeah, but he didn't do anything more than McGrady and Kobe are doing now until he got a supporting cast and superstar status that gave him advantages with referees and the NBA. He was comercialized and popularized and THAT is why he is labeled "the greatest ever."

It astounds me how naive so many of you are! Jordan was great - WAS being the operative word - but he is only the greatest ever because the media and the NBA say so and not because he actually IS the greatest ever. I mean, use some logic here, people. You can't say it was Jordan's will to win that makes him the greatest ever; many players have that, they just don't have the talent to boot (Ben Wallace, for example). Others have the talent, but not the will to win (Vince Carter). Others have both, but they don't have the supporting cast to do it by themselves, or they have another superstar who they are the supporting cast (Tracy McGrady and Kobe Bryant). It's the MARKETING and only that which labels Michael Jordan as the greatest ever. Oscar Robertson was just as good, he just didn't have his own shoe and the support of the NBA...

[Big Answer]

Can these two guys score more than 30 points avg. on a whole season ???
And make their team better...I doubt it......
Remember NBA finals 93...40 pts or more in 4/6 games, all 6 above 30 !!!
It was incredible
No body ever did it.......

[Wall St. Peon]

Can these two guys score more than 30 points avg. on a whole season ???

Yeah, I'd say so. McGrady's close at 29.8...Bryant could, quite easily, I think...he's at 27.7, and that's with Shaq for almost half the games...so yeah, I can safely say they could average 30 points or more on a season. McGrady probably will. Iverson's done it a couple times, and I don't think he's as good as Jordan.

And make their team better...I doubt it......

Kobe Bryant has a gob of triple doubles...if his team had played better, they would have been next to perfect without Shaq. McGrady is solid every game, and he does make his players better. He has great vision and his passes are consistant.

Remember NBA finals 93...40 pts or more in 4/6 games, all 6 above 30 !!!

Who was guarding him, what percentage did he shoot, how many shots did he take, and how many points did the next highest scorer on the Bulls have? Also, how many points did the man he was guarding have? Jordan wasn't known for his defense his first few years in the league...

It was incredible
No body ever did it.......

Close...

Most points, series -- 284, Elgin Baylor, L.A. Lakers, 1962 (7 games)

Most points, game -- 61, Elgin Baylor, L.A. Lakers at Boston, April 14, 1962

Most points, half -- 35, Michael Jordan, Chicago vs. Portland, June 3, 1992

Most points, quarter -- 25, Isiah Thomas, Detroit at L.A. Lakers, June 19, 1988

Highest scoring average, series -- 41.0, Michael Jordan, Chicago vs. Phoenix, 1993 (246 points-6 games)

You're half right. Jordan has the highest scoring average, but quite a few players have done things that are very comparable. These are taken from Sports Illustrated.

Yet another reason he isn't as great as you think he is...I mean, you have heard of Elgin Baylor, right?

[champ]

Enahs Live, i feel a little reluctant to waste my time arguing these points you are raising because i find them nothing short of ludicrous in every way imaginable.

I will make one little point about the 'can they average 30ppg' deal though. Why don't we compare these guys to when MJ was their age, not when MJ was past his athletic prime? So can they average 35-37ppg at 48-52% shooting? Can they also win defensive player of the year at the same time? Can they also average 32ppg-8apg-8rpg-2.5spg in a season? And can they win a Finals MVP (or can they win 6 Finals MVPs?)

And don't start bringing up Elgin Baylor, the NBA today is far more talented than it was back then.

[Wall St. Peon]

Enahs Live, i feel a little reluctant to waste my time arguing these points you are raising because i find them nothing short of ludicrous in every way imaginable.

I'm done arguing with you. You're ignorant, and you're not even listening to me. This is my last post on this topic. Learn some history, learn about real basketball, and actually watch every player you're commenting on. Until then, keep your ignorant unfounded comments to yourself.

I will make one little point about the 'can they average 30ppg' deal though. Why don't we compare these guys to when MJ was their age, not when MJ was past his athletic prime? So can they average 35-37ppg at 48-52% shooting? Can they also win defensive player of the year at the same time? Can they also average 32ppg-8apg-8rpg-2.5spg in a season? And can they win a Finals MVP (or can they win 6 Finals MVPs?)

They can do all of that. They're talented enough, it's just a matter of them doing it. You also have to remember Jordan had three years of college, McGrady and Kobe didn't. Shooting guards are more talented now than in Jordan's time, anyway...more competition...but you have worse tunnel vision than a drunk on a bottle of Absolut...

And don't start bringing up Elgin Baylor, the NBA today is far more talented than it was back then.

This is why I say you're ignorant. You are. Enough said, I'm done.

[Cudacke]

Yeah, I'd say so. McGrady's close at 29.8...Bryant could, quite easily, I think...he's at 27.7, and that's with Shaq for almost half the games...so yeah, I can safely say they could average 30 points or more on a season. McGrady probably will. Iverson's done it a couple times, and I don't think he's as good as Jordan.

30.5 point with .499 field goal percentage is Jordan's career average until now, and Bryant and TMAC have not had one single season average more then 30. In addition, Iverson's career field goal percentage is right now .419.

Kobe Bryant has a gob of triple doubles...if his team had played better, they would have been next to perfect without Shaq. McGrady is solid every game, and he does make his players better. He has great vision and his passes are consistant.

Jordan has made a lot of triple doubles in 88-89 season when he also played PG for about half of the season. At that time, Pippen was a second year pro who started to become a starter, and Grant was a second year pro who just became a starter. Their center, Bill Cartwright, was just traded to the Bulls. Their PG who was not even good enough to handle the position till the end of the season. However, Jordan still held the Bulls to a 47-35 season record, and he took the Bulls to the third round lost to the Pistons 4-2. Well, what have Bryant done without Shaq? How about TMA? second round?

Who was guarding him, what percentage did he shoot, how many shots did he take, and how many points did the next highest scorer on the Bulls have? Also, how many points did the man he was guarding have? Jordan wasn't known for his defense his first few years in the league...

Who is guarding him?
Does it matter who is guarding him when Jordan is at his prime?
What percentage?
Just look at his career percentage and check out his career average.
Jordan was the MVP, score champ, and def. player of the year in the 87-88 season. It was his 4th year.

[champ]

Enahs Live,

You're done? That's a relief; now i don't have to worry about that pic anymore or your uneducated views.

[benji]

Well, what have Bryant done without Shaq?

Irrelevant. He's never played a full season on a team built around him without Shaq.

How about TMA? second round?

Mental reliance on Grant Hill. Doc Rivers issues. Tracy McGrady's self-admittance of not trying hard enough sometimes (which makes his dominance at times seem even more amazing).

However, Jordan still held the Bulls to a 47-35 season record, and he took the Bulls to the third round lost to the Pistons 4-2

Jordan was forced to play PG and distribute to his talented teammates by Doug Collins (costing him his job), and thus the team began to win. Bulls take a two to zip lead in that Pistons series before Jordan reverts back to his standard game and they lose the series.

And don't start bringing up Elgin Baylor, the NBA today is far more talented than it was back then.

Prove It.

But alas, an example to draw your own conclusions or sway to say whatever you want it to say:
League Shooting Percentage Then: .434, 105 shots per game (thus more room for error)
Today: .435, 80 shots per game

Then remember a few things, as another poster once stated:

Even more amazing is the fact that the players of yesteryear were able to play at such a fast pace even though they did not have the luxuries of chartered jets, first class hotels, never having to play on more than 2 consecutive nights, personal trainers and modern sports medicine that has benefited every NBA player over the last 12 years.

Plus expansion waters down the league...

The most prominent example of why the "Players of today are better" is only a myth was the 1995-96 Milwaukee Bucks. The Bucks were coached by Mike Dunleavy, who was never more than a journeyman when he played in the 1970's & 80's. In one-on-one games Dunleavy was undefeated against every one of his Bucks players- including future All-Stars Vin Baker & Glenn Robinson*. There were 3 other teams that year who were even worse than the Bucks. If NBA players of today are so much better than those of the past, this simply could not happen.

* Source: Milwaukee Journal-Sentinal

Most modern NBA fans are from a younger generation and have been fed a myth that the average player of today is better than the average player of yesteryear. This is simply not true, while players of today are better raw physical athletes they lack the sound fundamentals, work ethic and stamina of players from the past: that's why current teams bring the ball up the court and stand around for as many as 12 seconds before running their offense. Simple mathematics will tell you that the average player among the 168 best in the world (the number of players at the end of the 1960's) will always be better than the average player among the 348 best in the world (the number of players today).

[Wall St. Peon]

30.5 point with .499 field goal percentage is Jordan's career average until now, and Bryant and TMAC have not had one single season average more then 30. In addition, Iverson's career field goal percentage is right now .419.

The question was if they could do it...not if they had...I know they haven't...but they COULD do it...it's very possible, but you two fail to see that.

Jordan has made a lot of triple doubles in 88-89 season when he also played PG for about half of the season. At that time, Pippen was a second year pro who started to become a starter, and Grant was a second year pro who just became a starter. Their center, Bill Cartwright, was just traded to the Bulls. Their PG who was not even good enough to handle the position till the end of the season. However, Jordan still held the Bulls to a 47-35 season record, and he took the Bulls to the third round lost to the Pistons 4-2. Well, what have Bryant done without Shaq? How about TMA? second round?

I wasn't ever negating Jordan's previous accomplishments, and I don't really need to explain anymore as Ben has done a great job on your little comments. The original discussion was as to whether or not Jordan would be eclipsed by players of today and the future, and the answer is obviously yes. I gave a few examples, and you bring up past stats when that's not even the issue. I shouldn't need to explain this any further.

Who is guarding him?
Does it matter who is guarding him when Jordan is at his prime?

Yeah, it does. Shooting guards and point guards weren't as athletic as Jordan then, so he had a clear advantage. The talent at guard, while there fundamentally, was not there athletically to keep up with Jordan. Unless it was someone who was comparable to Jordan athletically, Jordan had a huge advantage. I could probably look it up, but I don't feel like it.

What percentage?
Just look at his career percentage and check out his career average.
Jordan was the MVP, score champ, and def. player of the year in the 87-88 season. It was his 4th year

So, what was his percentage in the games? I don't care about his career average, he had games where he shot under 49%, and it wasn't because of his jump shot, it was because he drove to the hoop...

Champ:

You're done? That's a relief; now i don't have to worry about that pic anymore or your uneducated views.

You're going to have to worry about the pic...just because you said that. My uneducated views? Learn about the history of basketball and maybe you won't look like a moron.

[champ]

Enahs Live,

oooooooooooo moron, ya mother teach u that word?

we are on the way to witnessing bryant and mcgrady in their prime, and if you truly think those players can shoot the ball at 52-53%, win defensive player of the year, lead the league in scoring and steals etc., then you have another thing coming.

[Wall St. Peon]

oooooooooooo moron, ya mother teach u that word?

No...

we are on the way to witnessing bryant and mcgrady in their prime, and if you truly think those players can shoot the ball at 52-53%, win defensive player of the year, lead the league in scoring and steals etc., then you have another thing coming.

If you think they they don't have the ability to do that, you know absolutely nothing about basketball. I don't think you know much, anyway. You've proven that by giving no evidence as to why you think that Jordan will not be surpassed, and you're ignoring past athletes accomplisments because you're ignorant. If you knew of past players, of what they've done - did MJ ever average a triple double? score 100? didn't think so, and that's just the obvious start - you wouldn't be such an imbecile on this particular topic, and you wouldn't be riding the Jordan jockstrap as much as you are. You're saying every other player who has ever played the game and those who will play the game will not surpass Jordan's talent and accomplishments, even though there already have been players who have done that, then you're an imbecile. Simple as that.

I truly am done now. Do some research and post again when you know something.

[Cudacke]

The question was if they could do it...not if they had...I know they haven't...but they COULD do it...it's very possible, but you two fail to see that.

It's you that missing my point.
I was only replying to your message that says:

Yeah, I'd say so. McGrady's close at 29.8...Bryant could, quite easily, I think...he's at 27.7, and that's with Shaq for almost half the games...so yeah, I can safely say they could average 30 points or more on a season. McGrady probably will. Iverson's done it a couple times, and I don't think he's as good as Jordan.

yea. I know they might be able to average 30 a season, but until then just drop that they might do it crap.

I wasn't ever negating Jordan's previous accomplishments, and I don't really need to explain anymore as Ben has done a great job on your little comments. The original discussion was as to whether or not Jordan would be eclipsed by players of today and the future, and the answer is obviously yes. I gave a few examples, and you bring up past stats when that's not even the issue. I shouldn't need to explain this any further.

Again, you managed to alter my point.
What I was replying was what you said as follow:

Kobe Bryant has a gob of triple doubles...if his team had played better, they would have been next to perfect without Shaq. McGrady is solid every game, and he does make his players better. He has great vision and his passes are consistant.

I was just simply showing you some stats and some facts that how crapy Jordan's teammate were at the time and he was still able to take them to the third round.

Yeah, it does. Shooting guards and point guards weren't as athletic as Jordan then, so he had a clear advantage. The talent at guard, while there fundamentally, was not there athletically to keep up with Jordan. Unless it was someone who was comparable to Jordan athletically, Jordan had a huge advantage. I could probably look it up, but I don't feel like it.

The fact is. No one was able to stop him until his second retirement.
Are you saying that there were no one athletic enough comparing to Jordan since Jordan's first nba season till his second retirement?
Come on! Take a look at Ben's post. There was a guy called Clyde who can dunk a step inside foul line in a game. Guard Jordan? The 80's pistons can beat the Bulls. However, even with their five starter player all trying to stop Jordan, Jordan is still unstoppable. I think you do know that it takes five men to play nba basketball, isn't it? So, please save the 1 man can beat a team crap. I know that but that's not what I am talking about.

So, what was his percentage in the games? I don't care about his career average, he had games where he shot under 49%, and it wasn't because of his jump shot, it was because he drove to the hoop...

Again, you just take my word and reply something else.
I was replying to that part you post:

Who was guarding him, what percentage did he shoot, how many shots did he take, and how many points did the next highest scorer on the Bulls have? Also, how many points did the man he was guarding have? Jordan wasn't known for his defense his first few years in the league...

yea, I know there were games that Jordan shoots lower than his average.
The word "average" already told me that.
However, by having kobe's average percentage, .457, I know he had more bad shooting games than Jordan had. Of course, it's per # of games. Kobe eclipse Jordan? Yes, one day he may but he is not and also may never will!


For the record, I never said that no one can ever eclipse him.
In face, he, Jordan, said in his video that there will be someone better than him. But, until then, until Kobe, TMAC, or even that not yet a nba star,James , has done it. It's just a possibility.

[Cudacke]

Irrelevant. He's never played a full season on a team built around him without Shaq.

Indeed, it true so let's just wait till he prove he can do by doing it, then give him the credit for it.

Mental reliance on Grant Hill. Doc Rivers issues. Tracy McGrady's self-admittance of not trying hard enough sometimes (which makes his dominance at times seem even more amazing).

But, it does not necessary mean if Tracy McGrady will ever try harder or even if he does try harder, he will do better than Jordan.

Jordan was forced to play PG and distribute to his talented teammates by Doug Collins (costing him his job), and thus the team began to win. Bulls take a two to zip lead in that Pistons series before Jordan reverts back to his standard game and they lose the series.

That's why he was not yet the best player that he could be but that's not my point. I wasn't typing all that to show that Jordan was already the best ever at that time. The same goes to Kobe, TMAC or any other future players too. They still have too much to prove in order to eclipse Jordan.

[Wall St. Peon]

Cudacke, you're taking my quotes out of context entirely...they were responses to Champs irrellevant points...and who was guarding Jordan in that series does matter...

[champ]

oooooooooooo moron, ya mother teach u that word?

No...

we are on the way to witnessing bryant and mcgrady in their prime, and if you truly think those players can shoot the ball at 52-53%, win defensive player of the year, lead the league in scoring and steals etc., then you have another thing coming.

If you think they they don't have the ability to do that, you know absolutely nothing about basketball. I don't think you know much, anyway. You've proven that by giving no evidence as to why you think that Jordan will not be surpassed, and you're ignoring past athletes accomplisments because you're ignorant. If you knew of past players, of what they've done - did MJ ever average a triple double? score 100? didn't think so, and that's just the obvious start - you wouldn't be such an imbecile on this particular topic, and you wouldn't be riding the Jordan jockstrap as much as you are. You're saying every other player who has ever played the game and those who will play the game will not surpass Jordan's talent and accomplishments, even though there already have been players who have done that, then you're an imbecile. Simple as that.

I truly am done now. Do some research and post again when you know something.

How in the world could you possibly think Bryant and McGrady have the ability to shoot 52-53%? Bryant has Shaq taking most of the double and triple-teams away from him yet still only shoots mid-40s! And McGrady is accurate compared to most of his rivals but nowhere near 53%! There is no way these two players have the ability to do that. And as for steals per game and defensive player of the year, if Bryant and McGrady have the ability to achieve these things, what are they waiting for? I don't see them showing they have the ability to achieve most things that Jordan achieved.

And Michael Jordan can definitely average a triple-double. He averaged 32-8-8 in one season. We all know that if he decided not to shoot as much he could have easily averaged more than 10 assists per game. And we all know that if he didn't shoot as much he would be in a better position to rebound and would also conserve his energy more for rebounding and other facets. The fact is, MJ never wanted to average a triple-double. MJ always wanted to win the scoring title.

[air gordon]

no flame wars are intended by this post:

that's "consistent", not "consistant", by the way, future english teacher

i do believe that jordan rode the media machine to his fame. but jordan did what other players have failed to do: live up to the hype. i give him credit for that. he may gotten favorable calls go his way, but not all the time.

about this thing on who guarded jordan in the finals...
i believe thunder dan majerle was guarding jordan in the bulls/suns finals. if i'm not mistaken, majerle was still healthy and was known for athletic ability, hitting 3's, and good defense. jordan did a decent job defending majerle if i remember correctly.

in the bulls/blazers final, i believe drexler was the primary defender on jordan. the 'glyde' matched jordan athletically but i think he wasn't as good on defense as he was on offense. jordan had monster games in that series and drexler had some good scoring games as well.

that's what i can remember as of now for that topic.

i'm not a member of the jordan "ass licking society" (that's what they say around here in chicago), but i am a jordan fan, well at least when he was on the bulls. it was great to see the bulls make their championship runs, as well as jordan's stellar play. i will say he was greatest player i ever got to see play. it is debatable whether he was the greatest ever or even the greatest in his generation. i'll leave that for you all to discuss (educationally or ignorantly)

[EGarrett]

Ben. Expansion has not watered down the league. There are twice as many teams in the league as in the 60's...the Earth's population is twice as large now as it was in the 60's. Other countries are playing basketball now and increasing the talent pool. Average player height is up. If you disagree say so and give a reason why. If not stop making that tired and useless statement.

Shane. Michael Jordan had a Chamberlain-like advantage in athleticism? Tell that to David Thompson, Julius Erving, Dominique Wilkins, Kenny Walker, Clyde Drexler and countless others who played in his era and before. Just because you've never heard of someone doesn't mean they don't exist. I'm especially disappointed that you would make this assumption, Shane, because I explained something very similar to this to you on the other board and you quietly agreed without another word...yet now you are saying basically the same thing you said before.

Limp. if everyone went through people's posts and pointed out grammatical and spelling errors there would never be any discussion. It doesn't make you seem intelligent, just anal and foolish when someone else pulls out all of your own mistakes.

Also, Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady have the potential to be as good as Jordan? Well, hand-size and IQ aside, let's say that's true. It means nothing. There are probably 1,000 6'6" and over men in the world with 40" vertical leaps. In athleticism they are up there with Jordan, but in maturity, leadership, determination, competitive instinct and performance under pressure they both have a long way to go before they can match him. Will they get there? Possibly, but they haven't shown the aptitude in all of those categories so far that they would need so it doesn't seem likely.

[Wall St. Peon]

Shane. Michael Jordan had a Chamberlain-like advantage in athleticism? Tell that to David Thompson, Julius Erving, Dominique Wilkins, Kenny Walker, Clyde Drexler and countless others who played in his era and before. Just because you've never heard of someone doesn't mean they don't exist. I'm especially disappointed that you would make this assumption, Shane, because I explained something very similar to this to you on the other board and you quietly agreed without another word...yet now you are saying basically the same thing you said before.

You're putting words in my mouth, I never said "Chamberlain-like advantage," and I never said that there weren't incredibly athletic players in the past; I was just saying that most of that athletic talent wasn't at the shooting guard position at the time Jordan played, it was more at the forwad or center position, with the exception of Drexler and a few others. I'm not saying two guards weren't athletic at the time, but they weren't generally at the same level as Jordan otherwise he would have been able to have been contained a bit more, no? That's why McGrady and Kobe don't shoot 50%...because nearly every guard in the league isn't all that much worse athletically...

And what you're saying is exactly what's annoying me about Champ's arguments. You can't deny that there were players who have done just as much as Jordan, if not more, in the past who simply did not have the press or the media machine that Jordan did. And my whole point was that Jordan will be surpassed, and I can see McGrady and Kobe doing it in the next few years. And that's only at the guard position. Garnett and Duncan may do that in a different way, and Shaq's dominating at center. He WILL be surpassed, which is my whole point, but Champ insists on bringing up games from 10 years ago when I'm saying that Jordan's title, which I don't think is accurate to begin with, will be void in a short period of time.

Also, Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady have the potential to be as good as Jordan? Well, hand-size and IQ aside, let's say that's true. It means nothing. There are probably 1,000 6'6" and over men in the world with 40" vertical leaps. In athleticism they are up there with Jordan, but in maturity, leadership, determination, competitive instinct and performance under pressure they both have a long way to go before they can match him. Will they get there? Possibly, but they haven't shown the aptitude in all of those categories so far that they would need so it doesn't seem likely.

They're roughly the same age as Jordan was when he began to peak, and they're both beginning to peak. You can't say Jordan was all that mature when he was scoring over 30 points a game and his team was losing...Kobe's at the point where he's shooting a great percentage for a guard in this era, and he's scoring the points, and he's rebounding, and he's dissing out the assists as a second option. Build an offense around him, and he'll probably flourish. And I hate Kobe Bryant. However, I see the talent. With McGrady, he simply needs more confidence. With his lineup changing and two of the players on the trading block every year, not to mention Hill's fragility, McGrady just need a stable team to feel comfortable with. Granted, he's still scoring 30 points a game and doing great in other statistical categories, but I know I probably wouldn't be as confident to win if I didn't know who I'd be playing next to the next night.

Champ:

How in the world could you possibly think Bryant and McGrady have the ability to shoot 52-53%? Bryant has Shaq taking most of the double and triple-teams away from him yet still only shoots mid-40s! And McGrady is accurate compared to most of his rivals but nowhere near 53%! There is no way these two players have the ability to do that. And as for steals per game and defensive player of the year, if Bryant and McGrady have the ability to achieve these things, what are they waiting for? I don't see them showing they have the ability to achieve most things that Jordan achieved.

They haven't peaked yet...and they have the ability. Many players have the ability, they just aren't able to do it for whatever reason, usually because of poor shot selection because they haven't learned the fundamentals. If they drove to the hoop more than they already do, their percentage would go up, as would their points per game as they would be fouled. The two players I mentioned more than have that ability, and you're just plain blind if you can't see that. What are they waiting for? Bryant's waiting for an offense to be built around him, and McGrady's waiting for a consistant team...

And Michael Jordan can definitely average a triple-double. He averaged 32-8-8 in one season. We all know that if he decided not to shoot as much he could have easily averaged more than 10 assists per game. And we all know that if he didn't shoot as much he would be in a better position to rebound and would also conserve his energy more for rebounding and other facets. The fact is, MJ never wanted to average a triple-double. MJ always wanted to win the scoring title.

No. He can't average a triple double. He never did, he never will, therefore this point is moot. He could have, but by that logic you agree with me. You can't say definately because it didn't happen, and it won't because Jordan isn't who he used to be.

I say that McGrady and Bryant COULD surpass Jordan because they have all the talent and skills needed to do so, but you say they can't. Now you're saying Jordan could have averaged a triple double, but he never did. It's the same thing, the same type of statements with one huge difference: my statement could happen and yours is an impossibility. So he had 32-8-8 one season? So what, he still didn't average a triple double. McGrady is averaging just under 30 points a game, so it's fairly safe to say he'll pass the 30 ppg mark this year or next, and Kobe's raining in 28ppg as a second option, and he was averaging over 30 for quite a while when Shaq was out. I can safely make the statement that they could - I'm not stating it like a fact - average over 30ppg, and the percentages at which they shoot are sensational for most two-guards in this era, therefore their 45%'s are comparable to Jordan's 50%....I think most guards from the early nineties shot around 45-50%, no? Correct me if I'm wrong, EG, I don't have any stats in front of me...I just wanna say 45% or so was the standard for a guard...



I'm glad someone sane who understands the past popped in, thanks EG...it's a discussion now and not talking to deaf ears...

[EGarrett]

I was just saying that most of that athletic talent wasn't at the shooting guard position at the time Jordan played, it was more at the forwad or center position, with the exception of Drexler and a few others

That may be true, but Drexler himself had little to no success containing Jordan when the two went head-to-head during the 92 NBA finals. It was universally accepted that one person, no matter who they were, could not stop Jordan from scoring.

You can't deny that there were players who have done just as much as Jordan, if not more, in the past who simply did not have the press or the media machine that Jordan did

I won't deny it, just tell me who. What guard did it without a great big man? Oscar Robertson and Magic needed Kareem. Jerry West and Elgin Baylor needed Chamberlain. Kobe's needed Shaq. Dr. J needed Moses Malone. Isiah needed a street gang worth of bruisers. I can't think of anyone but Jordan. That's another reason why to me he stands out.

Jordan also got more press because of his charisma and crowd-pleasing athleticism. That motivated his teammates also and is a credit to him. I don't know how being in the right place at the right time makes a player worse. Overrated? A lot of players are at first, but if you don't deliver, like Vince Carter, the media will actually turn against you. Michael delivered.

They're roughly the same age as Jordan was when he began to peak, and they're both beginning to peak. You can't say Jordan was all that mature when he was scoring over 30 points a game and his team was losing...Kobe's at the point where he's shooting a great percentage for a guard in this era, and he's scoring the points, and he's rebounding, and he's dissing out the assists as a second option. Build an offense around him, and he'll probably flourish. And I hate Kobe Bryant. However, I see the talent. With McGrady, he simply needs more confidence.

Let's compare the three.

Jordan was too quick to play up on and he had too much control of his body and the ball once he got to the basket (plus he made a habit of dunking on the best shotblockers in the league). He also was arguably the best midrange jump shooter in the game so you couldn't play off. He also could post-up and shoot his completely unblockable fadeaway jumper against anyone. It was no coincidence the Pistons had some of the best one-on-one defenders in the game in Dumars and Dennis Rodman and still had to throw double and triple teams at him. This worked at first but then Jordan learned how to look for the pass before he went one-on-one and Dumars and Isiah both admitted later that there was nothing they could do at that point. At 24 years old Jordan was also averaging more points at a much higher percentage (53% is ridiculous for a shooting guard considering he was leading the league in points). Iverson can't produce like that in the same role, and Kobe has the rebounding but isn't as efficient a scorer.

Kobe has the ball-handling ability and speed to get to the basket (it's scary to watch how twitch-quick he is when faking a drive.) He also has great leaping ability and a jumper you have to respect. Unfortunately as Kobe demonstrated in the first 12 or so games of the season he hasn't understood the value of passing out of the double team yet so teams can take care of him when they absolutely need to. Also, despite Kobe's interviews, he still has a "me-first" mentality on the court that alienates his teammates. When was the last-time you heard a Laker player say something genuinely complimentary about Kobe aside from "he's a good player?"

T-Mac can finish with the dunk as well as Jordan. He's got ball-handling and quickness. Unfortunately his jump shot isn't really up to par, he has little post-up ability and no fadeaway and he can't pass yet either.

If your teammates don't believe in you, you're going to have a hard-time motivating them to leave it all out on the floor when they need to. If you're teammates aren't into the game they're not going to cut to the basket, set good picks for you, play good defense, or do a host of things that you NEED to win a championship. There's more to reaching that level than scoring at will. There's more to it than being a freakish athlete. There are intangibles. If Kobe and T-Mac don't realize this they're not going to lead teams to championships like Jordan did. Most great players never do.

I think most guards from the early nineties shot around 45-50%

I don't know everyone but we can check two.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/mitch_richmond/

In his best season (percentage-wise), Mitch Richmond scored 22.1 points per at a 49.7% percent clip. Richmond was largely considered the second-best shooting guard of the 90's. A lot less points at a smaller percentage...

Of course people will say Mitch was a jump shooter. So let's get someone who went to the hoop relentlessly....even more than Michael. Dominique...

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nba/players/playerpage/123335

In the season where Dominique Wilkins turned 24 years old, he scored 21.6 points per at a 47.8% clip. (the season after he scored 27.4 at a 45.1% clip). Less points...worse percentage...

Michael outperformed all of these guys when he was in the same role (only offensive option on a poor team.) When he got help he lead them to ring after ring...

At some point, it would seem like you guys would give the guy some credit. If you ask me, Michael was a special player any way you look at it and to ignore these stats, evaluations and comparisons just to be contrarian seems silly to me. When are you guys going to grit your teeth and admit that Jordan was a special player...

[benji]

Expansion has not watered down the league.

Fine, not just expansion, but early entrees.

There are twice as many teams in the league as in the 60's...the Earth's population is twice as large now as it was in the 60's.

And your point is...absolutely nothing.

Other countries are playing basketball now and increasing the talent pool.

No, they are making up for the poor quality of American players.

Average player height is up.

And your point is...again nothing. Eric Montross is taller than Wes Unseld, yet I wouldn't call him anywhere near as good.

If you disagree say so and give a reason why.

I gave multiple ones!!! Why don't you read all of my posts instead of just bits and pieces?

Even more amazing is the fact that the players of yesteryear were able to play at such a fast pace even though they did not have the luxuries of chartered jets, first class hotels, never having to play on more than 2 consecutive nights, personal trainers and modern sports medicine that has benefited every NBA player over the last 12 years.

The most prominent example of why the "Players of today are better" is only a myth was the 1995-96 Milwaukee Bucks. The Bucks were coached by Mike Dunleavy, who was never more than a journeyman when he played in the 1970's & 80's. In one-on-one games Dunleavy was undefeated against every one of his Bucks players- including future All-Stars Vin Baker & Glenn Robinson*. There were 3 other teams that year who were even worse than the Bucks. If NBA players of today are so much better than those of the past, this simply could not happen.

* Source: Milwaukee Journal-Sentinal

Most modern NBA fans are from a younger generation and have been fed a myth that the average player of today is better than the average player of yesteryear. This is simply not true, while players of today are better raw physical athletes they lack the sound fundamentals, work ethic and stamina of players from the past: that's why current teams bring the ball up the court and stand around for as many as 12 seconds before running their offense. Simple mathematics will tell you that the average player among the 168 best in the world (the number of players at the end of the 1960's) will always be better than the average player among the 348 best in the world (the number of players today).

If not stop making that tired and useless statement.

Because you don't like to be wrong?

Limp. if everyone went through people's posts and pointed out grammatical and spelling errors there would never be any discussion. It doesn't make you seem intelligent, just anal and foolish when someone else pulls out all of your own mistakes.

You're the one seeming anal, since not only did he put a smiley but he was relating to something earlier. He wasn't insulting Shane or he would've picked out all the errors.

But, it does not necessary mean if Tracy McGrady will ever try harder or even if he does try harder, he will do better than Jordan.

I never said it did.

That's why he was not yet the best player that he could be but that's not my point. I wasn't typing all that to show that Jordan was already the best ever at that time. The same goes to Kobe, TMAC or any other future players too. They still have too much to prove in order to eclipse Jordan.

But, you're ignoring the fact that Jordan wasn't the best ever then, or now, or ever.

And Michael Jordan can definitely average a triple-double. He averaged 32-8-8 in one season. We all know that if he decided not to shoot as much he could have easily averaged more than 10 assists per game. And we all know that if he didn't shoot as much he would be in a better position to rebound and would also conserve his energy more for rebounding and other facets. The fact is, MJ never wanted to average a triple-double. MJ always wanted to win the scoring title.

So, you're saying that Jordan never wanted to be a team-player he just wanted personal glory? Considering he had to be forced to even get close to a triple double.

i will say he was greatest player i ever got to see play

but jordan did what other players have failed to do: live up to the hype.

I've never seen him live up to this "greatest player of all time" hype...

[benji]

It was universally accepted that one person, no matter who they were, could not stop Jordan from scoring.

Just like any player in the league.

I won't deny it, just tell me who. What guard did it without a great big man? I can't think of anyone but Jordan. That's another reason why to me he stands out.

Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman and Scottie Pippen. Plus some three point bombers.

That motivated his teammates also.

Prove it.

Iverson can't produce like that in the same role

Well, he is just 5-11 and 155, and he's never had a Pippen.

Michael outperformed all of these guys when he was in the same role (only offensive option on a poor team.) When he got help he lead them to ring after ring...

If we're talking about the nineties than Jordan never didn't have help.

At some point, it would seem like you guys would give the guy some credit.

I haven't? Calling him the best shooting guard of the 90s, one of the best players of the 90s (if not the) and one of the best guards in league history isn't giving him credit?

If you ask me, Michael was a special player any way you look at it and to ignore these stats, evaluations and comparisons just to be contrarian seems silly to me. When are you guys going to grit your teeth and admit that Jordan was a special player...

Special? Perhaps, but the greatest there ever was and the greatest there ever will be, no way. I'm not being "contrarian" I'm being realistic. I could accuse you of ignoring stats, evaluations and comparisons as well. Since you appear to be doing it, where as I know I'm not since I know what I'm doing, but I could be wrong so I don't say it and I don't degrade people and their opinions when they disagree with me or others on a subject where it's hard to come up with definitive facts.

[BIG GREEN]

I gave multiple ones!!! Why don't you read all of my posts instead of just bits and pieces?

Cause they are long...lenghty and boring?

[benji]

Great job "moderating", Yohance, I'm glad you make the forum a better place by insulting people for making posts with a paragraph or two.

[Wall St. Peon]

At some point, it would seem like you guys would give the guy some credit. If you ask me, Michael was a special player any way you look at it and to ignore these stats, evaluations and comparisons just to be contrarian seems silly to me. When are you guys going to grit your teeth and admit that Jordan was a special player...

But I have given him credit! I never said he wasn't a special player, but I said someone will come along who will be better than him, and it won't be too long. You're ignoring the ENTIRE premise of this discussion, and it was simple as that.

And Ben's right...Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant were all-stars, Dennis Rodman perhaps...it's not like those players are poor. Throw in all the "three point bombers," and that's WAAAAY more than Duncan, Garnett, and TMac has....Kobe has Shaq, which equals Grant and Rodman, and they have 3 point bombers...

I have to go to class...

[Cudacke]

Cudacke, you're taking my quotes out of context entirely...they were responses to Champs irrellevant points...and who was guarding Jordan in that series does matter...

Please!
Look at these replys of yours carefully.
oh............
I see.... you quoted Big Answer's words; however, these replys were for champs irrellevant points.
Well... who is out of context......??

Can these two guys score more than 30 points avg. on a whole season ???

Yeah, I'd say so. McGrady's close at 29.8...Bryant could, quite easily, I think...he's at 27.7, and that's with Shaq for almost half the games...so yeah, I can safely say they could average 30 points or more on a season. McGrady probably will. Iverson's done it a couple times, and I don't think he's as good as Jordan.

And make their team better...I doubt it......

Kobe Bryant has a gob of triple doubles...if his team had played better, they would have been next to perfect without Shaq. McGrady is solid every game, and he does make his players better. He has great vision and his passes are consistant.

Remember NBA finals 93...40 pts or more in 4/6 games, all 6 above 30 !!!

Who was guarding him, what percentage did he shoot, how many shots did he take, and how many points did the next highest scorer on the Bulls have? Also, how many points did the man he was guarding have? Jordan wasn't known for his defense his first few years in the league...