Kobe or LBJ in 2007-2008 season?

how do you explain him scoring 32 vs. the clippers right after the groin injury then 39 vs. the knicks 2 games after the cavs? That's a strange injury...it seems to pick and choose when it affects him.

that still doesn't change the fact that Kobe was injured.....

Anyone remember a short guy named charles barkley? Yea? Good...so stop using kobe's height and size vs LeBron's as an excuse for the rebouding desparity.

Barkley played PF and he was at least 240...bif difference. Also, rebounding numbers don't impress me....here is how REAL rebounds should be counted

1. all offensive rebounds count
2. no uncontested rebounds.....i.e if you don't have to fight the O team for the board then you shouldn't be credited with a R
3. no rebounds from FT's.....the D already has a 'box out' position, anything less than a rebound is poor fundamentals.

Watch a game, count the rebounds using that formula....you'll see that the Kobe, LBJ's, Kidds, only grab 2-3 REAL rebounds per game...the rest is stat padding.

There are other factors.....eg: Melo isn't asked to rebound, his job is to leak out when the O team launches a shot therefor decreasing his rebounding opportunities. And, Cliff Robinson never averaged 6rpg (don't think he averaged 5 but lets just say 6) and yet he rarely got beat to rebounds. He just boxed out his man and allowed his teammates to grab 'fluff' rebounds. And yet Kevin Garnett, Grant Hill and Chris Webber (all in their prime) name Robinson the best defender they faced.

I'm showing his continued "desire" etc

i only mentioned Kobe's desire on presedence.......sure this thread is about NOW but i need much more proof to see the desire in LBJ. It "seemed" as though he cruised through last season and the biggest cherry on the cake was his poor play against the Spurs (who were abused by Melo & D Will). It's no easy fete to dominate the Spurs but doing something other than dribbling the air out of the ball would have been nice too!

And what does...

And yet Kevin Garnett, Grant Hill and Chris Webber (all in their prime) name Robinson the best defender they faced.

Have to do with...

There are other factors.....eg: Melo isn't asked to rebound, his job is to leak out when the O team launches a shot therefor decreasing his rebounding opportunities. And, Cliff Robinson never averaged 6rpg (don't think he averaged 5 but lets just say 6) and yet he rarely got beat to rebounds. He just boxed out his man and allowed his teammates to grab 'fluff' rebounds.

I'm guessing he meant Cliff was so tough to get by for an offensive rebound - after all, boxing out is a form of defence.

EDIT: And they are both reasons why rebounding stats are misleading.

And Jae, about my comment on Kobe's mindset, I sorta went off track an talked about past seasons. Take it this way, I think Kobe is the better player for the reasons I stated, and if he keeps his mindset how has been so far this season (at least until Bynum went out), keeping teammates involved resulting in wins, he will continue to be superior to LeBron for a while yet (IMO).

that still doesn't change the fact that Kobe was injured.....

..you didn't answer the question. His "injury" didn't affect him...that's the fact.



PS> I'm ignoring the other things you talked about which seem to be more poor excuses for things that have nothing to do with the topic.

I'm guessing he meant Cliff was so tough to get by for an offensive rebound - after all, boxing out is a form of defence.

EDIT: And they are both reasons why rebounding stats are misleading.

It's like this forum has turned into some insane bizzaro world. First Lamar Odom is a very good rebounder because of his per game stats, now suddenly Cliff Robinson is a great rebounder because he didn't have great rebound stats, and also rebounding stats, inanimate objects, are somehow misleading people.

..you didn't answer the question. His "injury" didn't affect him...that's the fact

well then I guess he just forgot how to move laterally and lost his quickness for the night. I'm willing to bet that long J would have been a drive to the hoop under normal circumstances.

I'm ignoring the other things you talked about which seem to be more poor excuses for things that have nothing to do with the topic.

you bring up LeBron's rebounding and say it's better than Kobe's and you post some stats. The rest of my post says that to me, those numbers have very little meaning on their own.

now suddenly Cliff Robinson is a great rebounder because he didn't have great rebound stats

which i never actually said

rebounding stats, inanimate objects, are somehow misleading people.

take the stats for what you want, but to me grabbing more RPG doesn't make a player a better rebounder.

It doesn't to me either, as someone who reads the thread would've noticed.

However, I think it is perfectly fine to equate someone who grabs more rebounds than others to usually be a "better rebounder". That is a judgement I am making, out of a fact that a player grabs more rebounds than another.

this is a forum where you express thoughts and everything you want.

Not really my misinformed NLSCer. There are rules.
If you want to post a crack/hack anything illegal about NBA Live, your ass is grass.

inanimate objects, are somehow misleading people.

Of course they can. George Bush can mislead most of the U.S. and Paris Hilton can mislead teenage girls that being a slut is alright. See, two inanimate objects right there.

It's like this forum has turned into some insane bizzaro world

No, it all makes sense. All you have to do is eliminate parts that can possibly weaken your argument and post parts that strengthen your argument, and you'll see the big picture.
For example, if I believe Thug is the reincarnation of Jesus I will present my small limited argument:

Jesus is a carpenter.
Thug is a carpenter.
Therefore Thug is Jesus.
Holy crap.

(I love you BIG G. In a non-ghey way. Only used you for example purposes and not flaming purposes)

For example, if I believe Thug is the reincarnation of Jesus I will present my small limited argument:

Jesus is a carpenter.
Thug is a carpenter.
Therefore Thug is Jesus.
Holy crap.

But this is not logical! You must make another premise along the lines of "all carpenters are Jesus"! Two people being carpenters, it does not logically follow that one is the other! Exclamation points are fun!

But logic only adds up to the factors that may potentially weaken an argument! Keep it simple so you can retrace and backtrack your weak argument if holes are found!
Exclamation points too strengthen an argument by showing you are aggressive and passionate that what you spew out is the truth!

This is like Bobby Hill, when he thought Jimmy Carter was Jesus simply because he was a carpenter and had overalls that said JC on them.

And then Cotton shot Carter's with a nail gun.

Darko, Jimmy Carter is a terrible human being. Stupid Nixon.

King of the Hill is a good show.
It subtly imparts a "lesson of the week" in its stories without being cheesy or corny like other shows.

I think it's far better than Simpsons and Family Guy. Because, as you said, like Futurama it can tell a story or deliver a message while being fun. Instead of beating you over the head with the joke/point.

Plus, the characters are amazing.

Dale is my favorite, even if he's not an obvious 'haha' character, everything about him just cracks me up.

...excuse me as I sit back and ponder whats going on here..

^^^^ What he said.

I'm guessing he meant Cliff was so tough to get by for an offensive rebound - after all, boxing out is a form of defence.

EDIT: And they are both reasons why rebounding stats are misleading.

It's like this forum has turned into some insane bizzaro world. First Lamar Odom is a very good rebounder because of his per game stats, now suddenly Cliff Robinson is a great rebounder because he didn't have great rebound stats, and also rebounding stats, inanimate objects, are somehow misleading people.

Yes (I believe) Lamar Odom is a very good rebounder. Shawn Marion is also a very good rebounder, and most would agree - I assume you would to Benji. Shawn Marion's rebounding % is just 1.1% higher than Odom's... is 1.1% more really that big of a deal? Big enough to have everyone think Shawn is somewhat of a rebounding machine for a guy his size/position, yet Odom isn't even very good at rebounding?

Either way, it doesn't matter. LeBron is still the better rebounder, I already said that. No one has challenged the rest of my post, only picking at my thoughts on Kobe's rebounding which didn't matter anyway since I said this particular facet of the game was taken by LBJ.

The rest of your post cannot be challenged, it is just a bunch of your personal beliefs and I cannot deny that is what you actually believe.

personally I think he has been slacking for a while.

I'd still take Kobe at this point

in my opinion he is a better defender than LeBron in every way

his feel for the game

finishing with an incredible degree of difficulty - scoring wise he's extemely dynamic and virtually unstoppable

LeBron is better at making those around him better.

it's just not in his instinct to pass. Everytime he get's the ball he's thinking about scoring.

he can play more in the flow of the game

I just don't think it's how he plays, his mindset

I would say Kobe has a better nose for the ball

Overall, I think Kobe's the better player

LeBron will always have the advantage mentally because while being less skilled overall

Otherwise, it's just generic generalities:

Talk about two incredibly talented players.

Anyway...

Yes (I believe) Lamar Odom is a very good rebounder. Shawn Marion is also a very good rebounder, and most would agree ... Big enough to have everyone think Shawn is somewhat of a rebounding machine for a guy his size/position, yet Odom isn't even very good at rebounding?

And none of that matters. Lamar Odom ranked 46th or whatever for his position last season. Using what "other people" say, I don't hear people calling Kris Humphries or Joe Smith "very good players" based on their overall performance last season.

Marion is a fantastic rebounder, for the small forward position, at power forward he's more around an average "starter-level" power forward. His rebounding also isn't "just 1.1% higher", he's getting 8% more total rebounds, and 13% more defensive rebounds.

Once again the king james version of basketball outplays kobe and guards him well in the 4th. They both guarded each other as a matter of fact but LeBron exhibits his underrated defense nicely(kobe's shooting % was perfect up until LeBron guarded him). He finishes with 41 and scores the last 6 points for the cavs including two clutch jumpers over kobe's "lock down D" for the lead then to seal the win.

Kobe later gets a chance to win after cavs turnover the ball but manages to get his shot blocked by larry hughes of all people. After that he misses an oppurtunity to send the game to overtime. Best player today? Gimmie a break; What more does Lebron have to do?

Cavs 2 - 0 over the lakers for the season and have won their last 5 meetings. (I hope they meet in the finals)

So Matt...what injuries did kobe have today? I'd love to hear the excuses you guys can come up with.

http://www.nba.com/games/20080127/CLELAL/recap.html

amen.

Not to take anything away from LeBron, he had a monster game, but I think some of the success against the lakers has to be attributed to Zydrunas Ilgauskus. He played a great game. He' s a two time all star and when the Lakers have Kwame Brown.... well there's no contest right there.

They say Kwame's a great post defender but Z is 7'3'' and has range all the way out nearly to the 3pt line, and he obviously got the better of Kwame.

Now I'm not saying this is the reason LeBron had 41 and Kobe had 33, I'm just saying this may have played a role in the Cavs success.

Yes it played a role...just like luke stealing the ball from Lebron played a role...and just like the 3 pointers that the lakers hit played a role..and just like the Lakers rebounding better played a role. It's a team game..it wasn't one on one until the fourth quarter...when it counted.

Nothing is ever completely one on one in the NBA. Everyone contributes somehow.

Just to clarify myself...


The key plays that defined the outcome of the game happened when hey guarded each other. It was Lebron who guarded kobe on his last shots when he missed them. It was kobe who guarded Lebron when he made the shot to take the lead and it was a deliberate one on one play. It was kobe who deliberatly let lebron get the ball in an inbound play so he could foul him thinking that Lebron wouldn't make the clutch freethrows to seal the game. These plays helped make it "feel" like one-on-one even though it obviously wasn't literally that way.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime ... ime-080128

Looking at the poll on the bottom right of that article page...i guess the fans have spoken. I rest my case.

jesus...