I am going out on a limb...(T-Wolves off-season related)

I agree Buss should have attempted to resolve it, but why was shaq so upset that the franchise wanted to keep Kobe? It would be like the lakers putting their priorities straight with Magic and Kareem, with Kobe being Magic and Shaq being Kareem (i'm not comparing the careers of those 4 great players, but the passing of the torch is somewhat similar). I think the turning point with shaq and buss was in that preseason game, when shaq went down the court yelling at buss saying "pay me motherfucker". Now im not against swearing, but what generation is buss from? he's old school, no question. and in that generation, you never disrespect your boss like that, and you definately dont do it in public.

I'm not sold that Jackson and Shaq were told to pack their bags becuase of kobe. Kobe's a smart guy, i think he is a deeper thinker than what people give him credit for, which is why he doesnt explain himself to the media until the criticism reaches a point. The situation with shaq leaving, shaq demanded the contract extension and at the time, i dont totally blame buss for not giving shaq a raise (as oneal wanted) considering his age and decline). What i do blame him is if he traded shaq simply becuase he publicly "humiliated" him at that pre season game.

I don't think shaq was upset that the franchise wanted to keep kobe. I think shaq was upset that the franchise valued kobe over him, and to a point disregarded him. I mean, look at it this way, kobe was blatantly flirting publicly with a team that just so happened to be in the same city. In my mind, whether right or not, I think that set off something in shaq. I think to him it was kobe saying "shaq or me," and in his mind it set off a reaction. Buss did nothing to temper this. Was shaq acting like a baby? possibly (though i think he had reason, but thats beside the point). but the laker organization didn't react right imo. They didn't try hard enough to placate him, they didn't fight for him. I think that was the folly. If I remember correctly their statements were very halfhearted, and basically amounted to "we'd like to keep shaq, but if he wants to leave so be it."

I lost respect for buss because he didn't fight for a player that was a warrior for him. He didn't fight for a 3 time final mvp, 3 time champion. He didn't fight for one of the greatest centres ever. He saw shaq was fading and couldn't wait to toss him for younger blood. shaq's words during that preseason game may have been petty, but to me it was a cumulation of something everyone saw coming.

I do not think kareem-magic is that similar a case (as you said, i'll explain why anyway). kareem and magic, despite their differences, respected each other. of those lakers 5 championships magic won the finals mvp thrice, kareem once. during their time together kareem won the mvp once (magics rookie year), magic thrice. kareem and magic joined forces when kareem was 32.... was kareem still good? yes, but no longer in his prime. kobe joined shaq in his prime.... shaq left at 31. there was no passing of the torch during kobe and shaq's time together... only after it was uncerimoniously done. During those championships shaq was without a doubt the more important facet. I'm not discounting kobe (i'll get to the percentages later), but the line is not as blurred here as it was with kareem-magic. imo this situation (in terms of value) is more similar to hakeem-drex than kareem-magic.

Not any team. You saw how ineffective the lakers were at getting him the ball at certain times. Shaq isnt a messiah. He wouldn't have turned the knicks or raptors into a contender.

I respectfully disagree. Shaq changes the game. put him on the knicks or raptors and thats not the knicks and raptors with shaq.... thats a different team. I understand that realistically he wouldn't turn those teams into true contenders, so I'll clarify my point. At first I thought he could turn any team into a true title contender, after reading through and thinking about it obviously that probably isn't true. But I do think shaq, at that point in his career, would improve any team in the nba more than anyone else (save maybe duncan).... by far. hypothetically, I believe that team would inevitably (within a season or two) be a true contender because it is relatively easy to build around shaq.

Kobe too was a reason the lakers were a contender. I think you have it very wrong when it comes to shaq and kobes importance for the lakers sucess. I have it 45 % shaq, 35% kobe, 10 % role players, 10% phil jackson.

When I said shaq is the reason the lakers are contenders I didn't mean to discredit kobe or the rest of the lakers. I meant to imply that he was the main reason, not the only one. sorry if that was misunderstood. That said I believe it 50% shaq, 30% kobe.

Lol tracey mcgrady? he's a glorified loser, and i actually like the way he plays at times. Why would you trade kobe to please shaq, if you are criticising the laker management for doing the same thing with kobe (trading shaq, firing jackson just to please kobe).

I was simply responding to lakersocks saying "How in the hell can the lakers sign a player that can replace Kobe again?" Obviously I don't think tmac can fully replace kobe, but its a start. I'm not saying buss would be right either way, but if I were him and I had to choose I'd choose shaq and pj because they're 60% and kobe's 30. think about it what would you rather have: kobe and odom.... shaq and tmac. imo shaq is relatively more irreplaceable than kobe.

The lakers have a nucleas of players begining to realise their potenital. Kwame, Smush, Mihm and Odom (especially odom) all have the talent to be a really good supporting cast and from their playoffs and end of season run, they are begining to do just that. I'm not convinced this team cant make the conference finals next season with the suns and mavericks as their top competition.

I'm fairly convinced that this team doesn't have what it takes. I attribute their 'surprising' success this postseason (losing the first round in 7...) to them going into the playoffs on a winning streak, and phoenix a losing streak. Any coach will tell you that how you go into the playoffs is crucial. The lakers went in playing the best basketball of their season, the suns the worst. Every average team throughout the year goes through streaks. Don't get me wrong, I respect the lakers for what they did, but I just don't buy that they can sustain it. I don't think it was a fluke, they played well, I just think it was a flash in the pan. I mean phoenix is going to have amare next season, dallas is gonna have more experience, san antonio is san antonio, houston imo is looking at a resurgance. The only team I think the lakers could possibly compete with is the grizzlies, clips, and nuggets.... and even then I'd bet on the latter (maybe not the grizzlies.... )

How do you know that though? Look at the impact kobe has had with chris mihm, odom, kwame brown, smush parker. he has helped their game just as much as shaq is helping wade, haslem and co in miami.

I'm not arguing kobe's impact on his teammates, I'm disputing his ability to attract free agents. I believe this because, for one, la's big free agent signing this summer was smush parker. I know that marginally respected guards don't want to leave their current situations to play with established scoring guards because most guards actually like touching the ball if they have a choice. imo la won't be able to attract quality guards with something to prove, because one they won't be given the touches to prove it there. and two they won't be able to attract gaurds that have already proven something, because they want to have more of an impact on the game on a team that is a true contender... which la is not. in fact every star guard that I remember in recent memory that has left his team via free agency has left to a team that a. offered him more touches/oppurtunity than his current situation, or b. had a star big. la gives none.

You don't know this. The lakers made huge strides over last year this season and playoffs, and considering the players they have still havent even come close to their potential, this laker team could very easily be back in the finals 3 years from now. just as easily as them falling apart at least.

I don't think the likeliness is equal here. Seeing as I can't tell the future I'll give you possible, not probable.

Exactly. Who says GP and Malone came to LA because of Shaq? Perhaps Kobe recruited them Rolling Eyes. But even if he didn't and let's say someone like Devean George did, does that make George the reason for Malone and GP coming to LA? No, it doesn't. They came to LA to be starters on a contending team and Shaq/Kobe combo was the reasons for it. Would they came to LA if Kobe wasn't there? Probably not, because that team wouldn't be a heavy contender. Would GP go to Miami if Wade wasn't there? Probably not, because that wouldn't be a contending team. You see my point? You can make Shaq to look as important as you want, but you can't deny that Kobe and Wade weren't an integral part of Malone's and Payton's decision to come to LA and Miami.

give me your evidence that kobe or george recruited them. Now compare that with all the articles and public quotes that imply shaq did. Malone and gp went to la to be part of a contending team, I believe shaq was a main reason (50% to be exact) that that team was a contender. Again I didn't mean to imply that the rest of the laker organization had no influence on those players coming, but I do mean to say that shaq was the biggest reason.... literally.

Last edited by magius on Sun May 21, 2006 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well, the point was that it doesn't matter who recruited them. You said yourself that Shaq was only half of the reason why Lakers were a contender - Kobe was the other half. You can't say Kobe was less important part, because he wasn't. Shaq alone doesn't make you a heavy contender, Kobe alone doesn't make you a heavy contender, but together they do. And that tandem was the reason why GP and KM came to LA and Shaq can be as big as he wants, he wouldn't get them there if he wasn't playing with Kobe. Was he the recruiter? Perhaps, but there's an equal possibility that all that rumour/'facts' are media/Shaq's PR agent constructed bullshit to make Shaq look more important than he actually is. But then again - like I said in my previous post and at the beginning of this one - that's completely irrelevant.

Well, the point was that it doesn't matter who recruited them. You said yourself that Shaq was only half of the reason why Lakers were a contender - Kobe was the other half. You can't say Kobe was less important part, because he wasn't. Shaq alone doesn't make you a heavy contender, Kobe alone doesn't make you a heavy contender, but together they do. And that tandem was the reason why GP and KM came to LA and Shaq can be as big as he wants, he wouldn't get them there if he wasn't playing with Kobe. Was he the recruiter? Perhaps, but there's an equal possibility that all that rumour/'facts' are media/Shaq's PR agent constructed bullshit to make Shaq look more important than he actually is. But then again - like I said in my previous post and at the beginning of this one - that's completely irrelevant.

no i said shaq was half, kobe a little more of a quarter. I can say kobe was less important, because he was. Zero mvp's and zero final mvp's prove that. Let me clarify this again, I don't think kobe was NOT important, I firmly believe he was less important.

I don't think shaq was upset that the franchise wanted to keep kobe. I think shaq was upset that the franchise valued kobe over him, and to a point disregarded him.

I think the lakers realised that kobe was comming off contract, and shaq was still under contract. So signing kobe was a bigger prioity than keeping shaq happy, but that all changed with shaqs comments towards buss in that pre season game.

I mean, look at it this way, kobe was blatantly flirting publicly with a team that just so happened to be in the same city.

Part of that was the clippers were the only team that far under the cap they could have offered kobe a deal close to the max.

In my mind, whether right or not, I think that set off something in shaq. I think to him it was kobe saying "shaq or me," and in his mind it set off a reaction. Buss did nothing to temper this. Was shaq acting like a baby? possibly (though i think he had reason, but thats beside the point). but the laker organization didn't react right imo. They didn't try hard enough to placate him, they didn't fight for him. I think that was the folly. If I remember correctly their statements were very halfhearted, and basically amounted to "we'd like to keep shaq, but if he wants to leave so be it."

Thats an interesting take, but shaq is a grown man. he has 3 finals mvps, one nba mvp, the richest contract in the history of basketball, and he still needs reassurances that he's wanted? or the top priority? Remember, the season before, shaq wasnt the finals mvp. kobe had put the lakers on his back and averaged 30,7 and 6. shaq was out of shape and seemed to be in a steady decline. I'll go further into this point later, but shaq shouldnt have really been evaluating who the lakers liked or wanted more.

I lost respect for buss because he didn't fight for a player that was a warrior for him. He didn't fight for a 3 time final mvp, 3 time champion. He didn't fight for one of the greatest centres ever. He saw shaq was fading and couldn't wait to toss him for younger blood. shaq's words during that preseason game may have been petty, but to me it was a cumulation of something everyone saw coming.

It wasnt needed at all. I dont think buss felt that he was going to get anywhere near equal value for shaq, so it wasnt an idea of trading him in why he was still in demand. Shaq was a 3 time finals mvp, but in all fairness, do we know buss had said anything to him or had said openly that he wanted to keep kobe ahead of shaq before (or even after) those comments? In Buss' mind he crossed the line.

I do not think kareem-magic is that similar a case (as you said, i'll explain why anyway). kareem and magic, despite their differences, respected each other. of those lakers 5 championships magic won the finals mvp thrice, kareem once. during their time together kareem won the mvp once (magics rookie year), magic thrice. kareem and magic joined forces when kareem was 32.... was kareem still good? yes, but no longer in his prime. kobe joined shaq in his prime.... shaq left at 31. there was no passing of the torch during kobe and shaq's time together... only after it was uncerimoniously done. During those championships shaq was without a doubt the more important facet. I'm not discounting kobe (i'll get to the percentages later), but the line is not as blurred here as it was with kareem-magic. imo this situation (in terms of value) is more similar to hakeem-drex than kareem-magic.

You explained the differences, ill explain the similarities. Magic joined an in prime kareem, the same way kobe joined an in prime shaq. Kobe was more raw than magic, and i guess so was shaq. kareem would be dominant for less time with magic, but shaqs time on top with the championships only happened with kobe. it hasnt happened with wade or penny. There was infact a passing of the torch, and that was the 2003 season.

I respectfully disagree. Shaq changes the game. put him on the knicks or raptors and thats not the knicks and raptors with shaq.... thats a different team. I understand that realistically he wouldn't turn those teams into true contenders, so I'll clarify my point. At first I thought he could turn any team into a true title contender, after reading through and thinking about it obviously that probably isn't true. But I do think shaq, at that point in his career, would improve any team in the nba more than anyone else (save maybe duncan).... by far. hypothetically, I believe that team would inevitably (within a season or two) be a true contender because it is relatively easy to build around shaq.

You're disagreeing by changing your point so it actually agrees with mine? . Shaq would help any team, thats not open for debate. I questioned whether he'd make any team a contender.

When I said shaq is the reason the lakers are contenders I didn't mean to discredit kobe or the rest of the lakers. I meant to imply that he was the main reason, not the only one. sorry if that was misunderstood. That said I believe it 50% shaq, 30% kobe.

50% or 45%, 35% or 30%, the numbers are close. But as i said before, this all didnt unfold with the championship lakers. The 2003 team was (in my opinion) 45% kobe, 30 % shaq, 15% jackson, 10% role players. Kobe carried that team.

I was simply responding to lakersocks saying "How in the hell can the lakers sign a player that can replace Kobe again?" Obviously I don't think tmac can fully replace kobe, but its a start. I'm not saying buss would be right either way, but if I were him and I had to choose I'd choose shaq and pj because they're 60% and kobe's 30. think about it what would you rather have: kobe and odom.... shaq and tmac. imo shaq is relatively more irreplaceable than kobe.

I wouldnt have traded either. I would have sat them both down, in the same room, and asked them point blank whats more important: role on the team or winning? If kobe didnt agree to be there, id let him go. If shaq did the same, id let him go also. Had a dynasty been broken up that way, at least it could have been said it was attempted to come to a resolution, rather than shaq pissing off the boss.

I'm fairly convinced that this team doesn't have what it takes. I attribute their 'surprising' success this postseason (losing the first round in 7...) to them going into the playoffs on a winning streak, and phoenix a losing streak. Any coach will tell you that how you go into the playoffs is crucial. The lakers went in playing the best basketball of their season, the suns the worst. Every average team throughout the year goes through streaks. Don't get me wrong, I respect the lakers for what they did, but I just don't buy that they can sustain it. I don't think it was a fluke, they played well, I just think it was a flash in the pan. I mean phoenix is going to have amare next season, dallas is gonna have more experience, san antonio is san antonio, houston imo is looking at a resurgance. The only team I think the lakers could possibly compete with is the grizzlies, clips, and nuggets.... and even then I'd bet on the latter (maybe not the grizzlies.... Wink )

Houston is the negative story of the little engine that could: It cant. This is all speculation. But the way odom showed he is capable of playing in the playoffs, and brown, and walton, and kobe as a leader, im not convinced they cant take the next steps. of course they could (and are just as likely) to fall flat on their faces, but it could go either way. with jackson at the helm, i'm leaning towards them progressing, but you never know.

I'm not arguing kobe's impact on his teammates, I'm disputing his ability to attract free agents. I believe this because, for one, la's big free agent signing this summer was smush parker. I know that marginally respected guards don't want to leave their current situations to play with established scoring guards because most guards actually like touching the ball if they have a choice. imo la won't be able to attract quality guards with something to prove, because one they won't be given the touches to prove it there. and two they won't be able to attract gaurds that have already proven something, because they want to have more of an impact on the game on a team that is a true contender... which la is not. in fact every star guard that I remember in recent memory that has left his team via free agency has left to a team that a. offered him more touches/oppurtunity than his current situation, or b. had a star big. la gives none.

Interesting, but im not sure that LA needs that much help in free agency. As i said earlier, the laker role players made huge strides this season. They dont need a ben wallace to take them to the next level. I'm not trying to compare this team to the bulls or anything, but when you look at chicago, they won through development. you look at the lakers, they won through subtraction (trading eddie jones, nve, campbell etc). You look at the 99 spurs, they added mario ellie, but he wasnt a bigtime signing. You dont need to make a big signing to get over the hump

Once and for all, leaving is different from being traded. Stop twisting things. Being traded and leaving are 2 different things.

Honestly, Dr. Buss made the right decision. Snaq for 30million per year? Jesus christ that's absurd. Even Pat Riley did not want to pay him that much.

Shaq wanted 30 million to render the lakers unable to resign Kobe for the max.

T-Mac for Kobe? How in the blue hell can you honestly say that Kobe will agree to a sign and trade?

If you're talking mid-season, Phil is not one to alter the roster mid season. He has neve don that really.

You firmply believe he was less important? To each his own.

I lost respect for buss because he didn't fight for a player that was a warrior for him.

Apparently, you dont know much about the good old days. Tex Winter and Kobe Bryant hate one thing about Shaq: His lack of conditioning. His refusal to get in shape which ultimately led to the defeat against SA and Detroit.

How can a GASP warrior have so much problems getting in shape? Sure he won all those finals mvp, let's forget that he didnt win any of those till Pjax came and ran the triangle through him.

I say Shaq's mvp and finals mvp awards were won because of Phil Jackson's offense not because he was a warrior.

You're disputing Kobe's ability to sign free agents? How about looking at Mitch Kupchak for a change?

Who exactly did Shaq attract in Miami aside from 50 year old Gary Payton?
Antoine Walker did not take a paycut and was acquired via sign and trade.

Malone and GP signing were a product of the lakers being a dynasty that fell and was seeking a way back to the top. Imagine all the credit they would get for helping the lakers get back to the top.

Hey, Riot - here I've got an actual rumour for you:

Babcock Could Return To Wolves Front Office
21st May, 2006 - 1:21 pm
Pioneer Press - Charley Waters reported on Sunday that Rob Babcock, who left the Timberwolves as player personnel director to become general manager of the Toronto Raptors , could return to the Wolves' front office.

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/40593/20060521/babcock_could_return_to_wolves_front_office/

McHale and Babcock duo? God, please make this happen. KG would kill someone for sure.

Babcock and McHale were partners in crime before. The funny thing is I don't think we've been in the playoffs since Babcock left. The Wolves also added Randy Whittman to Casey's staff. I love Whittman and I thought he should have been our Head Coach after Flip got fired. He makes our staff better.

Thats an interesting take, but shaq is a grown man. he has 3 finals mvps, one nba mvp, the richest contract in the history of basketball, and he still needs reassurances that he's wanted? or the top priority? Remember, the season before, shaq wasnt the finals mvp. kobe had put the lakers on his back and averaged 30,7 and 6. shaq was out of shape and seemed to be in a steady decline. I'll go further into this point later, but shaq shouldnt have really been evaluating who the lakers liked or wanted more.

shaq was the finals mvp that year, he was awarded it and deserved it. saying kobe should've won the finals mvp is beside the point, he didn't because he wasn't. That said, that postseason I will give that he had more of an impact than in previous years (shaq 45, kobe 35, phil 10, rest 10). kobe averaged 29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg on 47% shooting that year. yes i agree that is impressive, but don't disregard shaq's stat line: 30.4 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, on 56 shooting. Not to mention his affect and intimidation factor defensively which far exceeds bryant, and his ability to get the opposing centres/shotblockers into either foul trouble or double teams which freed up the lane or perimiter for everyone. I think it is folly to mistake the fact that kobe stepped up his importance as reason to believe he was more important. Again I respect kobe, I understand the logic that shaq would not have won those championships without him, but I still believe that shaq was the biggest reason they did.

It wasnt needed at all. I dont think buss felt that he was going to get anywhere near equal value for shaq, so it wasnt an idea of trading him in why he was still in demand. Shaq was a 3 time finals mvp, but in all fairness, do we know buss had said anything to him or had said openly that he wanted to keep kobe ahead of shaq before (or even after) those comments? In Buss' mind he crossed the line.

neither do I know whether buss said anything to let shaq know he was wanted. it was the nonchalance that burned them; saying nothing and doing nothing says more than enough imo. In shaq's mind he crossed the line.

You explained the differences, ill explain the similarities. Magic joined an in prime kareem, the same way kobe joined an in prime shaq. Kobe was more raw than magic, and i guess so was shaq. kareem would be dominant for less time with magic, but shaqs time on top with the championships only happened with kobe. it hasnt happened with wade or penny. There was infact a passing of the torch, and that was the 2003 season.

I disagree, I believe kareem's prime was around age 24-30; but like i said at 32 he was still good (better than others in their prime). kareem would be dominant for less time with magic for that very reason that magic joined him during the end of his prime, not in the middle of it. kobe on the other hand joined shaq either right at the middle of his true prime or during the early stages of it. the lakers won all their championships during shaq's true prime. if indeed there was passing of the torch in 2003, its not similar to kareem-magic because the lakers did not win a championship with kobe leading the team (which I don't think he ever did). the 2000 Laker glory came when shaq was the undisputed mvp of that team. the showtime laker glory came when magic was mvp of that team. without a doubt, every statistic and every award shows that kobe was never the mvp of any championship laker team. That is why I think aside from the fact those players were all lakers that that analogy is faulty.

You're disagreeing by changing your point so it actually agrees with mine? Crazy. Shaq would help any team, thats not open for debate. I questioned whether he'd make any team a contender.

forget the disagree part then, we can't all be perfect. I think he would've improved any team in the nba far more than anyone else in the league at that point in time (save maybe duncan). I also think that that team would inevitably become a realistic contender, which I don't think a kobe-led team can.

50% or 45%, 35% or 30%, the numbers are close. But as i said before, this all didnt unfold with the championship lakers. The 2003 team was (in my opinion) 45% kobe, 30 % shaq, 15% jackson, 10% role players. Kobe carried that team.

imo that was still shaq's team. I'd say 45% shaq, 35% kobe, 15% pj, 10% role. shaq's effect offensively and defensivly is in relation astronomical imo.

I wouldnt have traded either. I would have sat them both down, in the same room, and asked them point blank whats more important: role on the team or winning? If kobe didnt agree to be there, id let him go. If shaq did the same, id let him go also. Had a dynasty been broken up that way, at least it could have been said it was attempted to come to a resolution, rather than shaq pissing off the boss.

Of course that is a better solution, but if I had to pick one or another without that happenning (which is apparently what happenned) imo shaq is an easy call.

Houston is the negative story of the little engine that could: It cant. This is all speculation. But the way odom showed he is capable of playing in the playoffs, and brown, and walton, and kobe as a leader, im not convinced they cant take the next steps. of course they could (and are just as likely) to fall flat on their faces, but it could go either way. with jackson at the helm, i'm leaning towards them progressing, but you never know

.
I guess we will wait and see, though I'm honestly not that worried about it. there are plenty of teams that are much better now, and there are plenty of teams with brighter futures.

Interesting, but im not sure that LA needs that much help in free agency. As i said earlier, the laker role players made huge strides this season. They dont need a ben wallace to take them to the next level. I'm not trying to compare this team to the bulls or anything, but when you look at chicago, they won through development. you look at the lakers, they won through subtraction (trading eddie jones, nve, campbell etc). You look at the 99 spurs, they added mario ellie, but he wasnt a bigtime signing. You dont need to make a big signing to get over the hump

but the point is kobe is a good enough player with a decent enough cast that from now on this team will be stuck around 8 seed. To me that is a path to mediocrity. Sure you can gamble on picking up a pip in the mid-late rounds, but I think the chances of that happenning are slim. Kobe is not of mj's calibre, and even mj did not do it as the only star on his team. It is just my opinion that it will be very hard for la to attract another that other player they need to bring them into the top 4 via draft or free agency.

Once and for all, leaving is different from being traded. Stop twisting things. Being traded and leaving are 2 different things.

stop being so defensive. You already convinced me, I actually ended up agreeing with you (in that case).... get it? I just said I still though it curious that they were all gone (if it pleases you I will never use the word 'left' again as it seems you have a vendetta against it). understand I'm not in this discussion to be right, I'm willing to be wrong. i just hope that you can come into it with an open mind.

Honestly, Dr. Buss made the right decision. Snaq for 30million per year? Jesus christ that's absurd. Even Pat Riley did not want to pay him that much.

Shaq wanted 30 million to render the lakers unable to resign Kobe for the max.

T-Mac for Kobe? How in the blue hell can you honestly say that Kobe will agree to a sign and trade?

If you're talking mid-season, Phil is not one to alter the roster mid season. He has neve don that really.

You firmply believe he was less important? To each his own.

the fact that riley traded for shaq proves he was willing to pay him that much. That shaq took a paycut there and not in la says something about the situation in la. Seriously, plenty of teams would have paid shaq at that point in time whatever he wanted.

how can you honestly say he wouldn't? If not for tmac, go for one of the other star guards in the nba. If not trade him to the clips. imo its still a better deal. the drop off between kobe and the next best conceivably available guard is inconsequential relative to the drop off between shaq and the next best available big. Not to mention, like I said, imo shaq is far more of a free agent magnet.

Apparently, you dont know much about the good old days. Tex Winter and Kobe Bryant hate one thing about Shaq: His lack of conditioning. His refusal to get in shape which ultimately led to the defeat against SA and Detroit.

and pj and shaq disliked kobe for his arrogance. Pick your poison. I can also say that what was happening off the court between those two factored in in their losses. Shaq has never been anything but a monster in the playoffs.... why do you disregard what shaq has done? His "lack of conditioning" also gave your franchise a three-peat. imo shaq is far more dominant with bulk than without... he didn't gain initially because he was lazy, he gained so he could take hakeem.

How can a GASP warrior have so much problems getting in shape? Sure he won all those finals mvp, let's forget that he didnt win any of those till Pjax came and ran the triangle through him.

How can GASP someone so out of shape still average at the VERY LEAST 27 and 10, be your mvp, and the most dominant player in the nba. I wish everyone was out of shape.

I say Shaq's mvp and finals mvp awards were won because of Phil Jackson's offense not because he was a warrior.

my god. in that case i'm allowed to say the reason the lakers even made the playoffs this season is because of phil jackson's offense. In that case mj should never have been mvp, that was phil jackson's triangle. Tim duncan isn't a mvp, thats all pop. Magic didn't deserve those mvps because he had riley. Hakeem who? Give it to rudy. thats utterly ridiculous! why is it every time a player achieves something others even vaguely disagree with credit is instantly given to everyone but said player. Come on. A little respect. shaq won those mvp's because he was the most dominant and valuable player in the nba and those playoffs, nothing less.

You're disputing Kobe's ability to sign free agents? How about looking at Mitch Kupchak for a change?

two words: smush parker. Mitch doesn't have the cards to attract free agents because his team is not built around a player others will leave their current situation to play with. If they want a championship they'll go on another team, if they want to up their value with more pt and touches that is not going to happen in la.

Who exactly did Shaq attract in Miami aside from 50 year old Gary Payton? Laughing
Antoine Walker did not take a paycut and was acquired via sign and trade

He has attracted Zo and Payton so far, the need for more was unneccessary. since you love quotes and article so much, even mj said he would've loved to play with shaq. If he's good enough for mj, well that says enough.

Malone and GP signing were a product of the lakers being a dynasty that fell and was seeking a way back to the top. Imagine all the credit they would get for helping the lakers get back to the top.

You keep pointing to articles with players saying certain things, why do you disregard all the articles of that time that clearly point that gp and malone went to la to join shaq. did hakeem attract drex or pip/barkley entirely alone? of course not, but you can't dispute the fact that he was the biggest reason. again, i'm not saying shaq was the ONLY reason, just the biggest one.

Ok, my bad about being defensive.

the fact that riley traded for shaq proves he was willing to pay him that much. That shaq took a paycut there and not in la says something about the situation in la. Seriously, plenty of teams would have paid shaq at that point in time whatever he wanted

Uh lets get things straight here. Riley was not willing to pay shaq that much, he refused to extend shaq's contract till the end of the season.
Shaq did not take a paycut in la because he did no want Kobe back. His new contract would have enabled the lakers unable to resign Kobe.

You're talking about sign and trade Kobe for T-quack and other superstar guards, yet you're completely forgetting that the lakers still cant afford to have one of them in their team with Shaq's 30mil contract. Were talking about signing other role players and drafting players. Imagine how big Dr Buss will have to pay in luxury tax just because he has a center that would eventually decline for 30 million per.

19/9 for 30mil? No thanks.

How can GASP someone so out of shape still average at the VERY LEAST 27 and 10, be your mvp, and the most dominant player in the nba. I wish everyone was out of shape.

How can GASP anyone pay a fat old man 30mil a year to average 19/9.

my god. in that case i'm allowed to say the reason the lakers even made the playoffs this season is because of phil jackson's offense

It was the reason.

and pj and shaq disliked kobe for his arrogance. Pick your poison.

I'd rather have arrogant but hardworking over out of shape, overpaid and declining.
No brainer there buddy.

why do you disregard what shaq has done?

I dont. I just think that Kobe had just as much an effect as Shaq on the 3peat dynasty.

two words: smush parker

Smush Parker? Please. He was an spl player that made the roster because sucky atkins was traded and eventually impressed Phil. He's not worth talking about when talking about free agent signings.

Mitch doesn't have the cards to attract free agents because his team is not built around a player others will leave their current situation to play with.

Correction: The lakers were crippled for the past 2 years because of their 2007 plan. A plan to get maximum cap space and sign a big name free agent. Obviously, the plan has already failed and by picking up Kwame's 3rd year team option, the plan has been moved to 2008.

He has attracted Zo and Payton so far

There you go. Neither are big name FA's and both are old enough to join the nba legends team.
If he had that much of a push, why did finley go to san Antonio when he would have gotten the full MLE in miami? And Cuban was even offering Finley an incentive if he signed with an eastern conf team.

Why did Derek Anderson sign with houston instead of miami?

since you love quotes and article so much, even mj said he would've loved to play with shaq. If he's good enough for mj, well that says enough. [/quote
How cute.
What's more cute is mj said the same thing about kobe.

of course not, but you can't dispute the fact that he was the biggest reason

Stop fooling yourself. The BIGGEST REASON was that the lakers were a dynasty that fell and was finding a way to go back to the top.

Uh lets get things straight here. Riley was not willing to pay shaq that much, he refused to extend shaq's contract till the end of the season.
Shaq did not take a paycut in la because he did no want Kobe back. His new contract would have enabled the lakers unable to resign Kobe.

You're talking about sign and trade Kobe for T-quack and other superstar guards, yet you're completely forgetting that the lakers still cant afford to have one of them in their team with Shaq's 30mil contract. Were talking about signing other role players and drafting players. Imagine how big Dr Buss will have to pay in luxury tax just because he has a center that would eventually decline for 30 million per.

19/9 for 30mil? No thanks.

I agree... shaq did not take the paycut because he did not want kobe back. That said, is it not logical that if kobe was gone he would?

How can GASP anyone pay a fat old man 30mil a year to average 19/9. Laughing

easily. Consider that the miami heat are now in the conference finals. not to mention they didn't too shabby last year either. believe you me, miami made their money back. 20 mil for a top 3 centre in the nba (duncan, yao-shaq [debatable]? sounds good to me. You can say all you want about his stats, but everyone knows that betting your money on a team with a good big is the high percentage by far. Bigs are a rare commodity, and like anything - the rarer they get the more expensive they are. The disparity and lack of true bigs in this league relative to that of guards is mind blowing, which makes shaq even more valuable imo. Say what you want about that "fat old man," but the fact is that fat bastard is still playing right now on a contender.

It was the reason.

so you think pj precedes kobe in matter of value to the lakers? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just clarify please. And for the other people I listed, do you agree with those statements as well?

fyi, shaq was averaging 29 and 10 before pj, not to mention the fact he came in a record close 2nd in mvp voting last year on a contender....

Smush Parker? Please. He was an spl player that made the roster because sucky atkins was traded and eventually impressed Phil. He's not worth talking about when talking about free agent signings.

exactly. yet that is all kobe has to show when it comes to his 'attractability' via free agency.

I'd rather have arrogant but hardworking over out of shape, overpaid and declining.
No brainer there buddy.

and I'd rather have a contender than a first round exit. again, funny that how out of shape, overpaid, and declining schmuck has led miami to the shit; they are practically the worst team in the nba! Oh the horror.... imagine!.... still playing late may! what was riley thinking?! what a waste of money! after all, he was only an mvp candidate last year! that slug!

There you go. Neither are big name FA's and both are old enough to join the nba legends team. Laughing
If he had that much of a push, why did finley go to san Antonio when he would have gotten the full MLE in miami? And Cuban was even offering Finley an incentive if he signed with an eastern conf team.

yes, zo and payton are pushovers. no would want them. come on, be realistic here, they are not exactly useless - in fact they are both above average role players. Miami didn't need another star, and they couldn't afford another star with wade's upcoming contract taken into consideration. The fact that finley was even tendering an offer with miami says enough imo. that Miami, a team that is a contender yes, a champion no, competed well over finley against the spurs is not exactly a slap in the face. shaq has buying power.... duncan has more (especially with finley's personality taken into consideration) its that simple. imo, money was not what was driving finley's decision.

Correction: The lakers were crippled for the past 2 years because of their 2007 plan. A plan to get maximum cap space and sign a big name free agent. Obviously, the plan has already failed and by picking up Kwame's 3rd year team option, the plan has been moved to 2008.

i don't see that plan ever being fulfilled to its potential. More likely they will end up overpaying whoever they can get.

How cute.
What's more cute is mj said the same thing about kobe. Laughing

haven't read it. if its not too inconvinient can you find that source and link it please?

Stop fooling yourself. The BIGGEST REASON was that the lakers were a dynasty that fell and was finding a way to go back to the top.

I'm not fooling myself. Shaq was the most dominant player in the nba, and one of the greatest centres in nba history. I don't understand how that isn't a selling point. imho the fact that the main reason they came to that team was for the chance to play with shaq is pretty clear. Again, since you like articles and quotes so much and since you are a laker fan, I find it hard to believe that you have forgotten the media coverage surrounding those signings. Shaq's name probably appeared in those articles more than gp and malones. if anything it was mandatory.

easily. Consider that the miami heat are now in the conference finals. not to mention they didn't too shabby last year either.

Consider that Shaq only played 59 games this season, is getting older and will continue to decline. He's not the reason they're in the conference finals, and he's only cracked 20 points 3 times out of 11 games in the play-offs. It was a smart decision to let him go, the Lakers weren't going to win anything else even with him around.

I believe Miami would have been in the Conference Finals with or without the Shaq move. Odom and rookie Wade were doing a great job and they were a highly competitive young bunch that played pretty solid D as well. With Wade's developement and Odom strong play in their offense alongside Caron Butler I would say their future looked better than it doesn now with Shaq considering how long they will have him. We would probably be talking about Wade at present instead of Lebron as all the focus in Miami would have rightly been on him. I feel Wade isnt given enough credit for making Shaq look good down in Miami. We still sit here praising him as a top C when if he scores 25 points we call that an amazing game. Is that really Shaq standards?

I agree with dadamafia. I was a huge fan of the Heat's core, despite having Brain Grant as their starting centre. I think we would've seen a Lamar Odom/Dwyane Wade all-star duo by now if he managed to stay with Miami. Odom really made a 180 degree turn in his image/career in Miami.

Consider that Shaq only played 59 games this season, is getting older and will continue to decline. He's not the reason they're in the conference finals, and he's only cracked 20 points 3 times out of 11 games in the play-offs. It was a smart decision to let him go, the Lakers weren't going to win anything else even with him around.

I believe Miami would have been in the Conference Finals with or without the Shaq move. Odom and rookie Wade were doing a great job and they were a highly competitive young bunch that played pretty solid D as well. With Wade's developement and Odom strong play in their offense alongside Caron Butler I would say their future looked better than it doesn now with Shaq considering how long they will have him. We would probably be talking about Wade at present instead of Lebron as all the focus in Miami would have rightly been on him. I feel Wade isnt given enough credit for making Shaq look good down in Miami. We still sit here praising him as a top C when if he scores 25 points we call that an amazing game. Is that really Shaq standards?

So what you two are telling me is that wade exceeds bryant. What else can I conclude when: 1. if shaq had stayed with la with bryant they "wouldnt've won anything else anyway," while in miami his team is a legitimate contender, and 2. if lamar and caron played with wade instead of bryant miami would be in the conference finals as opposed to the lakers either out of the playoffs (last year) or out of the first round.

that said wade in miami is far more of an influence on that team then kobe was those lakers. This situation, in my mind, is more similar to kareem-magic. imo wade-odom-caron would go where kobe-odom-caron went and are going - nowhere. shaq is still very much a factor in miami though..... how can scoring 20 per on 60% shooting not be? He still gets your opposing centre/shotblocker in either foul trouble or preoccupied from helping on the drive, and he still alters the opposing team's defences. No the shaq right now no longer plays at old shaq standards, but his value is only dimnishied relative to himself..... relative to the rest of the league he is still a game changer. There have been plenty of centres (wilt, kareem, admiral, etc.) who have still been very important factors in nba championships, albeit at dimnished roles. again, imho the situation in miami is similar to kareem-magic. miami made the right choice trading lamar and caron for shaq, imo with that move they went from a decade of 'on the brink contender status' (1st, 2nd round exits), to a legitimate contender. You can tell me that shaq is dimnished, but I think he will be around, playing game changing basketball for longer than most people imagine. So what if he is declining? The showtime lakers did just fine with a declining kareem, I don't see why it can't be the same with shaq.

imho if la had kept shaq, regardless if they had kept or traded kobe, they would be where miami is right now. still playing.

consider this the year after shaq's arrival/departure: miami prior to shaq (with lamar-caron) was 42-40 at .512 winning %....miami with shaq was 59-23 with a 720 winning %. la post shaq (with lamar-odom) is 34-48 at .415 winning.... la with shaq was 50-32 with a .61 winning %. That is a 20% switch both ways, and that is what i call the shaq effect. Those teams effectively switched destinies with that trade. la to glorified first round exits and parades for actually making the playoffs, and miami who would consider anything but a championship dissapointment.

Guess what? Now you guys know I wasn't just pulling this out of my ass. It is now on realgm.com.

Chicago Tribune - The two latest trade rumors for Allen Iverson, according to Sam Smith, have him going to Minnesota for their lottery pick and players or to Atlanta in a sign-and-trade for Al Harrington and one of Atlanta's young forwards. [READ]

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/ ... r_atlanta/

I don't get it, so where is Harrington going? and the other forward?
This could be one of the biggest trades in a long time..... I'm hoping for it to happen, just because i want some news on the nba...

didn't realgm confirm a trade sending paul pierce to denver? anyhow, i'd like minny to get ai, it would make the nba more exciting i think, and kg deserves more success.

So what you two are telling me is that wade exceeds bryant. What else can I conclude when: 1. if shaq had stayed with la with bryant they "wouldnt've won anything else anyway," while in miami his team is a legitimate contender

But still haven't won anything... and probably won't. Being a contender and actually winning a championship are two entirely different things, and of all the teams remaining are probably the 2nd biggest longshot behind whoever wins Phoenix/LAC. The Lakers would've still been a contender for the last two seasons, I very much doubt they would've won a championship though.

and 2. if lamar and caron played with wade instead of bryant miami would be in the conference finals as opposed to the lakers either out of the playoffs (last year) or out of the first round.

I don't think Miami would've been that successful, but then again I'm assuming the person who said it would've factored in the supporting casts, which you're not doing.

i wasn't trying...

you overreacting, tight assed, paranoid, KG closet homosexual, and T'wolves homer... i wasn't referring to the Sixers

I don't even know what you are saying anymore.

i'm pretty disappointed. you're a good contributor to the nba section but, i'm not trying to be offensive sounding here, you pretty much discount reality when it comes dealings with Garnett and t'wolves

Guess what? Now you guys know I wasn't just pulling this out of my ass. It is now on realgm.com.

so after bashing him, now sam smith is a credible source to you now?

so after bashing him, now sam smith is a credible source to you now?

Good point, maybe I'll post some other sources, too.

Pioneer Press - Charley Watters of the Pioneer Press wrote on Wednesday that there was a "Trade Rumor: Ricky Davis as part of a Timberwolves package to the 76ers for Allen Iverson."

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/ ... for_davis/

Airgordon, how do I discount reality when it comes to the T-Wolves and Garnett? I said there is no way Garnett is traded this summer but if you recall I did say I don't know if he will be back after next season. It all depends on what we did next season. Garnett loves it here in Minnesota and I am not making that up. Once he retires he plans on staying here, he said. Garnett has a special relationship with his community and it's unfourante that so few outside of the Twin Cities recgonize it.

How about your boy A.J. bitching and crying on PTI today about how he doesn't get respect and how everyone blames him for the brawl. I could bring that up but that would be stupid.

Being a contender and actually winning a championship are two entirely different things

I'd rather they be a contender opposed to a mediocre team...

I don't see how a play-off team who pushed the 2nd seed to 7 games are mediocre.

Seriously, people have got to stop looking at the Lakers like they're the Bobcats or something. It's ridiculous, you'd think they won 20 games by the way people talk.

I could bring that up but that would be stupid.

Yeah, that would be stupid because you would be wrong.

I could bring that up but that would be stupid.

Yeah, that would be stupid because you would be wrong.

I don't think I'm wrong because I saw it with my own two eyes today.

Well, I don't want to start an argument, but I'll state my opinion and you can have your opinion, that's some of what the Founding Fathers wanted, right?

Pierzynski was not at fault for the play. What he did was an entirely clean baseball play.