Article: Kobe better than Jordan?

[scrub]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... ill/070326

Very interesting read imo. Some very good points put across and it has given me a different view on comparing these guys. I feel that people feel Jordan is the best player the way he revolutionized the game in terms of his global reputation. But if Kobe was in his era wouldn't he have done the same?

[Amphatoast]

But if Kobe was in his era wouldn't he have done the same?

no because kobe learned his game off of jordan. He wanted to be like mike. No Jordan history=kobe completely different player.

[J@3]

Yeah but Jordan's game was a product of watching certain other guys, and their games evolved from other players etc etc... it's an endless cycle that didn't begin at Jordan.

[Matt]

Jordan was guarded by the likes of John Starks and Joe Dumars, who were fine players but weren't nearly as skilled or physically imposing as LeBron, D-Wade, Tracy McGrady or even Vince Carter.

she compares two excellent defenders to those 4 who can't guard shit? Just calling any of those 4 "physically imposing" is a crime.

The NBA is tougher now

if any of those 4 she mentioned faced Bill Laimbeer's elbows 0f 88 they wouldnt last long.....perhaps Wade the longest, but the others are too mentally soft. Perhaps T-Mac gets a pass for having to practice with Dikembe though

Meh, perhaps an argument can be made, but she certainly didnt make a good one.

[J@3]

Just calling any of those 4 "physically imposing" is a crime.

Lol if I was a SG or a SF I'd be shitting myself being up against a guy the size of LeBron. Not sure what's physically imposing about Wade or Vince though, T-Mac is ultra long but those other two are poor examples.

[Madsnyb]

Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson and Patrick Ewing will be among the best centers ever, but none of them affected the league the way Shaq and Tim Duncan have.

In which way did Duncan change the game more than Hakeem and Robinson?

[maes]

This article is moronic. I doubt the author even saw a game in the 90s.

"The NBA is tougher now."

Vince Carter is a better defender than Dumars? That statement so wrong I can't even compose a response. It's like saying Britney Spears could probably take Duncan in the low post, i can't even start a rebuttal.

And yes MJ got rid of Collins and supported PJ. So the author thinks the Bulls would have won more titles with *Collins* as head coach instead of Jackson?

Wow, this article just proves to me anybody can write anything about the NBA and get it on a major webiste.

But then again, i read Sam Smith so why i am surprised.

[ThaSpecialist]

.. this article is essentially an example of what the media will do to get attention .. specifically no-name authors.

To say that any of the SG/SF she mentioned in today's NBA play Defense to some high degree is a complete joke. Most of them are too busy trying to put up 30 a game on 35 shots. The most you'll see them do Defensively is come over on weakside Defense for a block, or snatching up a loose ball and going with it.

Bryant shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Jordan.

LOL @ the "NBA is tougher"

The amount of scrawny unprepared players in it is at an all time high .. not to mention the 3 second rule and the serious lack of shot blocking Centers around the league (#1 reason why Greg Oden is going to walk into the NBA and make noise) leaves the lane open all day long for guys like T-Mac, Bryant and VC to go show time.

[Tuomas]

^ Good points there, but...

Bryant shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Jordan.

Why not? He is the best SG after Jordan, imo the second best ever?

[nylia]

Just calling any of those 4 "physically imposing" is a crime.

Lol if I was a SG or a SF I'd be shitting myself being up against a guy the size of LeBron. Not sure what's physically imposing about Wade or Vince though, T-Mac is ultra long but those other two are poor examples.

sorry. i like lebron. but if i was kobe or mj, i would probably love it if lebron was guarding me. i love lebron... it's just a fact that he can't guard.

[Jackal]

Jordan & Wilt. Jordan the best SG ever & Wilt probably the best Center.

Bryant & Shaq...that's like Wilt & Jordan together. That we actually witnessed that.

Wow.

[Axel]

Kobe will likely end up with more points than MJ, solely based on league tenure, and his direct entry into the league - I only hope it doesn't automatically vault him to the top in most peoples' minds (though Lebron will probably supercede Kobe later on). Jordan won 6 NBA Championships. He was the epitomy of a winner. When one thinks of Jordan, it's simply excellence. It's not his ability to put up 50 point games, which he certainly did, but it is the pictures of him with the championship trophy, and each time destroying his opponent in the playoffs. Don't think he's the best? Karl Malone and John Stockton would probably think you an idiot. Scoring a ton of points in a league where the only defense is to hop in front of your defender and flop over is not the same accomplishment as what MJ was able to to. I don't care about victim of circumstance. You can't discredit MJ just because Kobe hasn't had to deal with the same defensive stoppers.

And, perhaps the ultimate test of it all is how Michael Jordan himself reacted to his success. He was so good, so dominant and won so much that he retired in his prime. Kobe has yet to prove himself to the degree MJ did, and won't be remembered as such until he does so.

[BigKaboom2]

Wow...how did that article get published?

[ThaSpecialist]

Kobe will likely end up with more points than MJ, solely based on league tenure, and his direct entry into the league - I only hope it doesn't automatically vault him to the top in most peoples' minds (though Lebron will probably supercede Kobe later on). Jordan won 6 NBA Championships. He was the epitomy of a winner. When one thinks of Jordan, it's simply excellence. It's not his ability to put up 50 point games, which he certainly did, but it is the pictures of him with the championship trophy, and each time destroying his opponent in the playoffs. Don't think he's the best? Karl Malone and John Stockton would probably think you an idiot. Scoring a ton of points in a league where the only defense is to hop in front of your defender and flop over is not the same accomplishment as what MJ was able to to. I don't care about victim of circumstance. You can't discredit MJ just because Kobe hasn't had to deal with the same defensive stoppers.

And, perhaps the ultimate test of it all is how Michael Jordan himself reacted to his success. He was so good, so dominant and won so much that he retired in his prime. Kobe has yet to prove himself to the degree MJ did, and won't be remembered as such until he does so.

This was a work of art. Right on .. 100% agree with it all.

^ Good points there, but...

Bryant shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Jordan.

Why not? He is the best SG after Jordan, imo the second best ever?

Toumas, what makes you say this?

What separates Bryant from the T-Mac's, VC's, AI's and Drexler's of the past other than he puts up better numbers? (Actually his numbers pale in comparison to AI, who has averaged more ppg and apg .. but AI was the main show in Philly .. heh)

He played the supportive role to a Shaq-led Laker team similar to how Pippen played the supportive role to many Jordan-led Championship Teams.

.. and the irony in all this is that Pip at least got to the Conference Semi-Finals on his own once out of Jordan's shadow .. while Bryant out of Shaq's (shadow) is hopefully working on getting past the 1st round this year?

.. does it sound correct that Scottie Pippen can do a better job of leading a team than Kobe Bryant, if Bryant truly were the greatest SG not named Michael Jordan?

[putodelagoa]

Players are nowadays bigger, stronger? Yes. All one needs is to play a 80's tape and see how much the bodytipes changed since then... Tougher? ... Guaranteed contracts and 8 figure salaries took that away, IMO. They didn't have any rules preventing hand-cheking back then. Jordan would have no trouble having huge scoring nights should he face a similar situation... What has the writer to say about the "Jordan Rules"? Rick Mahorn, Salley, Laimbeer, Rodman... all in one team?
Does any team presents today a cast even remotely scary as this?

How wouldn't Jordan fare well in today's game? He did pretty well as a senior cityzen for the wizards, didn't he?

The writer seems to mistake physical prowess with defensive ability. Bruce Bowen isn't the most outstanding athlete, but is he a bad defender?

Physical prowess can take you a long way, but only if you match it with the willingness and know how.

Saying Hakeem and David Robinson didn't change the way the game is played, then bringing on the "7 footershooting 3's" theme is absurd. Where did the nimble big man trend came from if not from those guys?

How come Tim Duncan changed the game? Everybody refers to him as a throwback player, old school and all...

Kobe is a maniacal competitor, no doubt. And CAN be a hell of a defender.
Jordan was just as maniacal, only, he never took plays off on defense. He was much more intense and intimidatory than Bryant. He tamed Rodman. Would Bryant be able to command such respect? Bryant clearly isn't able to garner the respect around the league that Jordan did. And MJ was no choir boy, either...

I Would love to see a 93' Jordan going against Kobe. That would be a sacred matchup, but I will never go as far to say that Kobe is the better player. He isn't.

[Tuomas]

^ Good points there, but...

Bryant shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Jordan.

Why not? He is the best SG after Jordan, imo the second best ever?

Toumas, what makes you say this?

What separates Bryant from the T-Mac's, VC's, AI's and Drexler's of the past other than he puts up better numbers? (Actually his numbers pale in comparison to AI, who has averaged more ppg and apg .. but AI was the main show in Philly .. heh)

He played the supportive role to a Shaq-led Laker team similar to how Pippen played the supportive role to many Jordan-led Championship Teams.

.. and the irony in all this is that Pip at least got to the Conference Semi-Finals on his own once out of Jordan's shadow .. while Bryant out of Shaq's (shadow) is hopefully working on getting past the 1st round this year?

.. does it sound correct that Scottie Pippen can do a better job of leading a team than Kobe Bryant, if Bryant truly were the greatest SG not named Michael Jordan?

Oh and Pippen didn't have any backup? You do remember the Portland 2001 team...

I honestly can't rank anybody else than MJ above Kobe. Name one.

[_marsal]

Man do I hate these conversations. Sorry, but Pippen wasn't the best SF until he played with MJ. Kukoc wasn't the best 6th player until he coached MJ. Phil Jackson wasn't the best coach until he played with MJ. Why can't Kobe make Odom into what MJ made Pippen. Why can't Kobe make Walton into what MJ made Kukoc. Why can't Kobe lead his team to the Finals 6 times without a dominant center? Until that happens, we shouldn't have this conversation.

Oh, and NBA wasn't pussified (if that's the word) 10-20 years ago as it is now. Just remember Detroit and New York and how they played in those days. Dumars, Starks, Pippen (at practice) at SG position. Then Anthony Mason, Charles Oakley, Dennis Rodman etc. as a helpside defenders..Oh and of course, when you get to the basket, there are Ewing, Hakeem, Motumbo, Mourning, Laimbeer and many others waiting for you.

Who is Kobe facing now? Bruce Bowen and Ron Artest are the only worthy of mentioning.

If Kobe 2007 plays Michael Jordan 1993, MJ wins 21-13

[_marsal]

Oh and Pippen didn't have any backup? You do remember the Portland 2001 team...

I honestly can't rank anybody else than MJ above Kobe. Name one.

I believe he was talking about Bulls in 1994.

Well, Oscar Robertson IMO deserves just as much consideration as Kobe as 2nd best.

[LakersRule24]

But if Kobe was in his era wouldn't he have done the same?

no because kobe learned his game off of jordan. He wanted to be like mike. No Jordan history=kobe completely different player.

In that case, George Mikans=GOAT. Everyone based their game off another, Kobe went off variety of legends, Jordan did too. Mikans, nobody. He had his own game.

[ThaSpecialist]

Oh and Pippen didn't have any backup? You do remember the Portland 2001 team...

I wasn't refering to his Portland days .. I was refering to his first year when he took Chicago straight to game 7 against the Knicks in the Semi-Finals.

And this ..

Why can't Kobe make Odom into what MJ made Pippen. Why can't Kobe make Walton into what MJ made Kukoc. Why can't Kobe lead his team to the Finals 6 times without a dominant center? Until that happens, we shouldn't have this conversation.

.. is exactly what I was getting at.

I've seen Allen Iverson lead a crappy team to the NBA Finals, which Kobe likely will not be doing this year on his own either.

There is your SG.

Also, Clyde Drexler guided the Blazers to like 6 or 7 (of 10 years) first round losses in the post season .. lol He won a championship along side a dominant center, but you don't see anybody comparing him to Jordan despite the two's ability to do most anything on the floor whether it was passing, fast breaks, scoring, Defense .. etc.

[putodelagoa]

Oh and Pippen didn't have any backup? You do remember the Portland 2001 team...

The 1994 Bulls, were pretty good too... That's the year Pip played at MVP level... Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong, they were All-Stars in that year...
They had the rookie Kukoc, Steve Kerr, the 4 headed center Scott Williams, Longley, Perdue, Wennington, Cartwright and Paxson on their last legs, and the immortal Jordan substitute: Pete Myers...

[ThaSpecialist]

Oh and Pippen didn't have any backup? You do remember the Portland 2001 team...

The 1994 Bulls, were pretty good too... That's the year Pip played at MVP level... Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong, they were All-Stars in that year...
They had the rookie Kukoc, Steve Kerr, the 4 headed center Scott Williams, Longley, Perdue, Wennington, Cartwright and Paxson on their last legs, and the immortal Jordan substitute: Pete Myers...

lol .. I think Grant and Kukoc were the only ones mentionable, and they were definately role players at their finest.

.. purdue, wennington and longley .. lol good lord that's a sorry bunch.

[putodelagoa]

Well... Grant was one of the best rebounders/interior defenders in the league, in 1994. BJ Armstrong had his career year and was a great outside shooter -BOTH were all stars -, Perdue was a stiff, a fine rebounder, but a stiff, Kukoc was too green but that didn't prevented him (not Pippen) to take and make the clutch shot that took NY to the game 7 of the Semis, Longley was a pretty decent Center, but didn´t play a lot. I think he was comong from Minnesota. That's a much better cast than Kobe has at his disposal...

[ThaSpecialist]

Well... Grant was one of the best rebounders/interior defenders in the league, in 1994. BJ Armstrong had his career year and was a great outside shooter -BOTH were all stars -, Perdue was a stiff, a fine rebounder, but a stiff, Kukoc was too green but that didn't prevented him (not Pippen) to take and make the clutch shot that took NY to the game 7 of the Semis, Longley was a pretty decent Center, but didn´t play a lot. I think he was comong from Minnesota. That's a much better cast than Kobe has at his disposal...

lol .. I'm going to pretend I didn't just read that. I was with you 'til I the bold part.

I don't think two of those guys can hold a candle to Lamar Odom, who is basically Scottie Pippen with more height. (in that he can do pretty much anything asked of him)

He averaged 20 ppg, 11 rpg and 5 apg a year ago in the 1st Rd against the Suns for crying out loud .. the same series point guard Kobe spilled 5 tpg in. lol

15 ppg, 9 rpg and 5.5 apg in 05-06 when Bryant was on his Jordan-esque 35 ppg tear .. of course without the grand finale of a Championship ending.

[J@3]

Just calling any of those 4 "physically imposing" is a crime.

Lol if I was a SG or a SF I'd be shitting myself being up against a guy the size of LeBron. Not sure what's physically imposing about Wade or Vince though, T-Mac is ultra long but those other two are poor examples.

sorry. i like lebron. but if i was kobe or mj, i would probably love it if lebron was guarding me. i love lebron... it's just a fact that he can't guard.

Yeah I agree, I was refering more to his size though since the article called him "physically imposing", which he is.